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Old 04-03-2016, 05:31 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As usual you are throwing opinions.
Note the odds stack against your views.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times and reflect on Allah real message.
If I read the Qur'an 50 times as you read and understood the Qur'an, the odds will not be stacked against my view; I would be in the majority; the unbel8eving one.

Quote:
Frankly your is stupid thinking in saying others are stupid thinking.
You have the right to your opinion, just as I have the right to my opinion.

Quote:
If some Mu'min [51%, degree] can change their mind, it does not follow 1.6 billion Muslims [general] will ALL chankge their mind. This is clearly bad logic and stupid thinking.
The stupid thinking is this: Mu'mineen are better than Muslims in terms of Eeman but more than 51% degree Mu'minern might become apostates despite even 50% of Muslims are not becoming apostates. Not only that but thinking that Allah is telling the Mu'muneen not to die unless they have become Muslims yet Mu'mineen are still better than Muslims.

Quote:
Re .39:10-12 there is no mentioned of Mu'min. You are twisting and lying with your interpretation.
39:10 was addressed to Muslims [general] as slaves of Allah and not specifically as mu'min.
I knew you will have no idea as to what this verse is saying!

The verse is addressed to "servants who believe". It is not addressed to "servants who submit". Mu'minern are the "servants who believe". Neither the word "submit" is in this verse nor the word "Muslim" is in this verse.

Quote:
Your misunderstanding is because you have read the Quran only 6-7 times and this have no access and understand the nuances of the Quran.

Reading the Quran 6-7 times is not sufficient. You need to read it at least 50 times and within the right context of the Quran and not based on your personal biasness.
Well, if you are boasting about your 50+ times reading of the Qur'an then let me tell you that you are just as ignorant about the Qur'an and its context even now as you were when you had read it only once. Here is why:

51:56 And I have not created jinn and mankind except that they should serve me.

Therefore, everyone is servant of God.

19:93 There is no one in heavens and earth but will come to the beneficent God as servant.

Everyone is born to be servant of God and will go back to God as His servant.

36:30 Alas for the servants! There comes not a messenger to them but they mock at him.

So, do the Muslims mock the messenger or the infidels who are also servants of God (whether they understand it or not)?

The above verses show that there are all kind of servants of God. Some believe, others do not believe but mock the messenger. In 39:10, it is ones who believe (are mu'minern).

It's time for you to read the Qur'an another 50+ times!
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If I read the Qur'an 50 times as you read and understood the Qur'an, the odds will not be stacked against my view; I would be in the majority; the unbel8eving one.
Bad logic.
Your current view is based on your reading the Quran 6-7 times.
If you read the Quran at least 50 times you will know more of the Quran which will put you in the following position;

1. Reinforce your current view or
2. Change your wrong view to the right view [as mine].

It is most likely you will come to understand the right view [as mine] that is agreeable by all Islamic scholars I have read and I believe others as well because the right view is the one Allah intended with reference to 49:14 & 17 and in context with the whole of the Quran.

Quote:
The stupid thinking is this: Mu'mineen are better than Muslims in terms of Eeman but more than 51% degree Mu'minern might become apostates despite even 50% of Muslims are not becoming apostates. Not only that but thinking that Allah is telling the Mu'muneen not to die unless they have become Muslims yet Mu'mineen are still better than Muslims.
Your elaboration is a tangled mess because you failed to differentiate the loose from the strict sense of a term.
Such terrible bad thinking are usually committed by those who are intellectual incompetent as demonstrate in this case.

Quote:
I knew you will have no idea as to what this verse is saying!

The verse is addressed to "servants who believe". It is not addressed to "servants who submit". Mu'minern are the "servants who believe". Neither the word "submit" is in this verse nor the word "Muslim" is in this verse.
This again is because you failed to differentiate the loose from the strict sense of a term i.e. believe in the loose sense and believe in the strict sense.
There is no mentioned of "servants who believe".

You have interpreted 39:10 wrongly.
Note the phrase "servants who believe."
Some [e.g. Bewley] translate it as "slaves who believe"
If we take the 39:10 the context is towards the direction of Tagwa.
In this case, one has to submit to Allah to be a "slave of Allah."
Therefrom Allah exhorted these believers to more serious believers in cultivating stronger eeman and tagwa.

It is pointless for Allah to refer 39:10 to "servant" [loose sense]


Quote:
Well, if you are boasting about your 50+ times reading of the Qur'an then let me tell you that you are just as ignorant about the Qur'an and its context even now as you were when you had read it only once. Here is why:

51:56 And I have not created jinn and mankind except that they should serve me.

Therefore, everyone is servant of God.

19:93 There is no one in heavens and earth but will come to the beneficent God as servant.

Everyone is born to be servant of God and will go back to God as His servant.

36:30 Alas for the servants! There comes not a messenger to them but they mock at him.
You think you know but you don't know in greater depth, i.e. this point.

Note God created humans and jinns with an expectations that they should serve God.
But God [wonder why the mess] also give humans freewill to choose whether to serve God or not.
To serve God, a person must use his freewill to enter into a covenant with God.
Satan, infidels, kuffar, Jews and Christians chose not be serve God.
Allah stated they will be punished for disbelieving and not serving Allah, but who cares since the Quran is a not from God.

Therefore the term "servant" you quoted above refer to "servants' in the loose sense

Quote:
So, do the Muslims mock the messenger or the infidels who are also servants of God (whether they understand it or not)?

The above verses show that there are all kind of servants of God. Some believe, others do not believe but mock the messenger. In 39:10, it is ones who believe (are mu'minern).

It's time for you to read the Qur'an another 50+ times!
As I had mentioned, the term "servant" you quoted above refer to "servants' in the loose sense.
For 'servant' in the loose sense, i.e. refer to mankind in general, some believe and some do not believe.
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:23 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned, the term "servant" you quoted above refer to "servants' in the loose sense.
For 'servant' in the loose sense, i.e. refer to mankind in general, some believe and some do not believe.
In Arabic Qur'an, it is the same word (ibad) for the servants/slaves who believe and servants/slaves who do not believe, therefore, there are no two different terms. The servants/slaves (all people) are seperated only by their attributes in the Qur'an but they are still servants/slaves.

Your argument was that such servants or slaves are only Muslims. That was an argument in ignorance of the word "ibad" in the Qur'an. The verse says "servants who believe" and not the "servants who submit". After saying so many times that a Muslim only submits, and does not have to believe, now you are ignoring that the verse identifies only those who believe, meaning Mu'mineen.

It is for your own good that you understand the term :"ibad" in the Arabic Qur'an. It refers to anyone who does Allah's work on earth (man was created for this purpose) whether knowingly or unknowingly. The Babylonians who had attacked Jews, destroyed the first temple, were not Muslims but still identified in the Quran as "servants" ("ibad") of Allah with mighty prowess (17:5).

Yes, you have to not only read the Qur'an another 50+ times but understand it at least once too. Only then you will understand the various types of servants/slaves of Allah; believing as well as unbelieving, but still servants/slaves of Allah. Whether they believe or not believe, they are all slaves/servants of Allah. In 39:10, it is the believing ones; the mu'min ones.

Understand it?
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In Arabic Qur'an, it is the same word (ibad) for the servants/slaves who believe and servants/slaves who do not believe, therefore, there are no two different terms. The servants/slaves (all people) are seperated only by their attributes in the Qur'an but they are still servants/slaves.

Your argument was that such servants or slaves are only Muslims. That was an argument in ignorance of the word "ibad" in the Qur'an. The verse says "servants who believe" and not the "servants who submit". After saying so many times that a Muslim only submits, and does not have to believe, now you are ignoring that the verse identifies only those who believe, meaning Mu'mineen.

It is for your own good that you understand the term :"ibad" in the Arabic Qur'an. It refers to anyone who does Allah's work on earth (man was created for this purpose) whether knowingly or unknowingly. The Babylonians who had attacked Jews, destroyed the first temple, were not Muslims but still identified in the Quran as "servants" ("ibad") of Allah with mighty prowess (17:5).

Yes, you have to not only read the Qur'an another 50+ times but understand it at least once too. Only then you will understand the various types of servants/slaves of Allah; believing as well as unbelieving, but still servants/slaves of Allah. Whether they believe or not believe, they are all slaves/servants of Allah. In 39:10, it is the believing ones; the mu'min ones.

Understand it?
The problem is that if a person has to rely on translations, to get close to the real meaning they will also have to study tafsir, madhabs and fatwas to learn how a reader of Arabic understands the Arabic of the Qur'an. There are no English words that translate into the words of Muslim, Mu'min or Mushin. What one needs to do is attempt to express the definition of them into English. For that one needs to find and comprehend the different ways each is used. Translations seem to always seem to be approximations. What one needs to read is a good interpretation (Tafsir) along with the translations.

Just trying an experiment.

Go to any online site that has the Qur'an in English and Arabic. Pick any ayyat For example 9;5


فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (9:5)

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 9:5

Highlight the English and copy

Now go to any online online translation site such as Google translator '

https://translate.google.com/?oe=utf...t=tw-ob#en/ar/

Select English to Arabic, Paste in the English Click Translate and when it completes Copy the Arabic' which is:

ثم، عندما مرت الأشهر الحرم، اذبح المشركين اينما كنتم العثور عليها، وأخذها (الأسير)، ومحاصرة لهم، وأعدوا لهم كل كمين. ولكن إذا تابوا وأقاموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة المستحقة، ثم ترك طريقهم مجانا. لو! الله غفور رحيم. -

Compare the Arabic Translation of the English to the original (Arabic reads from Right to Left)

فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (9:5)

Even without being able to read the Arabic a simple visual inspection should give an indication to how much the translation differs from the original If you can read Arabic it is even more noticeable
Such as you have ثم، عندما مرت الأشهر instead of فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ


Translations alone are insufficient, even the translation of single words such as Muslim, Mu'min and Mushin. One also needs to know the interpretation and how they are used along with atranslation

While Muslim can be defined as a person who submits, it actually means a person who does Islam which contains--Belief, Submission and Actions.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In Arabic Qur'an, it is the same word (ibad) for the servants/slaves who believe and servants/slaves who do not believe, therefore, there are no two different terms. The servants/slaves (all people) are seperated only by their attributes in the Qur'an but they are still servants/slaves.

Your argument was that such servants or slaves are only Muslims. That was an argument in ignorance of the word "ibad" in the Qur'an. The verse says "servants who believe" and not the "servants who submit". After saying so many times that a Muslim only submits, and does not have to believe, now you are ignoring that the verse identifies only those who believe, meaning Mu'mineen.

It is for your own good that you understand the term :"ibad" in the Arabic Qur'an. It refers to anyone who does Allah's work on earth (man was created for this purpose) whether knowingly or unknowingly. The Babylonians who had attacked Jews, destroyed the first temple, were not Muslims but still identified in the Quran as "servants" ("ibad") of Allah with mighty prowess (17:5).

Yes, you have to not only read the Qur'an another 50+ times but understand it at least once too. Only then you will understand the various types of servants/slaves of Allah; believing as well as unbelieving, but still servants/slaves of Allah. Whether they believe or not believe, they are all slaves/servants of Allah. In 39:10, it is the believing ones; the mu'min ones.

Understand it?
You did not get my point.

Note again;
As I had mentioned, the term "servant" you quoted above refer to "servants' in the loose sense.
For 'servant' in the loose sense, i.e. refer to mankind in general, some believe and some do not believe.
Therefore one can use 'ibad' for the above, no issue here.

The other point is 'ibad' [servant] is used in the Quran in the loose or strict sense.
In the strict sense, it refer to believers as servants of Allah.
In contrasts,
for 'servant' in the loose sense, it. refers to mankind-in-general, some believe and some do not believe.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem is that if a person has to rely on translations, to get close to the real meaning they will also have to study tafsir, madhabs and fatwas to learn how a reader of Arabic understands the Arabic of the Qur'an. There are no English words that translate into the words of Muslim, Mu'min or Mushin. What one needs to do is attempt to express the definition of them into English. For that one needs to find and comprehend the different ways each is used. Translations seem to always seem to be approximations. What one needs to read is a good interpretation (Tafsir) along with the translations.

Just trying an experiment.

Go to any online site that has the Qur'an in English and Arabic. Pick any ayyat For example 9;5


فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (9:5)

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 9:5

Highlight the English and copy

Now go to any online online translation site such as Google translator '

https://translate.google.com/?oe=utf...t=tw-ob#en/ar/

Select English to Arabic, Paste in the English Click Translate and when it completes Copy the Arabic' which is:

ثم، عندما مرت الأشهر الحرم، اذبح المشركين اينما كنتم العثور عليها، وأخذها (الأسير)، ومحاصرة لهم، وأعدوا لهم كل كمين. ولكن إذا تابوا وأقاموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة المستحقة، ثم ترك طريقهم مجانا. لو! الله غفور رحيم. -

Compare the Arabic Translation of the English to the original (Arabic reads from Right to Left)

فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (9:5)

Even without being able to read the Arabic a simple visual inspection should give an indication to how much the translation differs from the original If you can read Arabic it is even more noticeable
Such as you have ثم، عندما مرت الأشهر instead of فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ


Translations alone are insufficient, even the translation of single words such as Muslim, Mu'min and Mushin. One also needs to know the interpretation and how they are used along with atranslation

While Muslim can be defined as a person who submits, it actually means a person who does Islam which contains--Belief, Submission and Actions.
I agree it would an addition reinforcement to one's understanding if one read the tafsir, madhabs and fatwas to learn how a reader of Arabic understands the Arabic of the Qur'an. However one do not have to agree with their views unless they make rational sense.

This is why I read a lot of articles on the issue of 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min' from a range of Islamic scholars and other Muslims, i.e. pro-Ahadiths, anti-hadiths, etc.

In this issue 'Muslim versus Mu'min' my views are similar to the all the Islamic scholars I read.
Khalif is the only exception one who has a different view.

By default and where it is critical I find the views from Islamic scholars not very reliable because they MUST be positively bias towards Islam as they have no choice or else their faith will not work.

To ensure I get an objective view I rely on other fields of rational knowledge and human nature to support my views.

Note my commentary on this issue.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43602778-post152.html
"Mu'min' is a specific term in the Quran therefore it is only related to Islam.
But the general principle of self-improvement underlying the concept of 'mu'min' i.e. progressive believe from low [general, loose] to high [specific] is generic to all human being in every aspect of human activities.
The underlying self-improvement underlying the concept of mu'min as in Islam exists in all religions.
In the Eastern religions the spiritual progress of a believer [submitter where applicable] is more detailed, complex and more efficient to drive one to a higher spiritual quotient. This processes changes the wiring of the neurons in the brain and effect real spiritual improvements.
The spiritual self-improvement potential in the Quran in general is kindergartenish.
Understanding Human Nature
What I always banked on is the understanding of Human Nature.
Basically at the level of the DNA structure, all humans share the same generic pattern.
Thus once we understand the human nature leveraged on the DNA, there is no knowledge that can escape us.
On this basis there is nothing the Quran that can be hidden or cannot be understood by human beings if we understand the complexity of the DNA and human nature. The Quran claims there are hidden things which humans cannot know. This is just a farce.
Just test me and I will explain everything in the Quran on the basis of the human DNA and human nature.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:43 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You did not get my point.

Note again;
As I had mentioned, the term "servant" you quoted above refer to "servants' in the loose sense.
For 'servant' in the loose sense, i.e. refer to mankind in general, some believe and some do not believe.
Therefore one can use 'ibad' for the above, no issue here.

The other point is 'ibad' [servant] is used in the Quran in the loose or strict sense.
In the strict sense, it refer to believers as servants of Allah.
In contrasts,
for 'servant' in the loose sense, it. refers to mankind-in-general, some believe and some do not believe.
Now you are learning something about the contents of the Arabic Qur'an!

The same term (ibad/ebad) is also used for slaves who are in reality servants. We are all slaves or servants of Allah. It is Allah who decides what you have to do in this life and when you must die. So you are unbelieving slave and I am believing slave of Allah. It is believing slaves being addressed in 30:10, 29:56 and 39:10 to do more (to submit). This as the point you were unable to understand.
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Old 04-05-2016, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree it would an addition reinforcement to one's understanding if one read the tafsir, madhabs and fatwas to learn how a reader of Arabic understands the Arabic of the Qur'an. However one do not have to agree with their views unless they make rational sense.

This is why I read a lot of articles on the issue of 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min' from a range of Islamic scholars and other Muslims, i.e. pro-Ahadiths, anti-hadiths, etc.

In this issue 'Muslim versus Mu'min' my views are similar to the all the Islamic scholars I read.
Khalif is the only exception one who has a different view.

By default and where it is critical I find the views from Islamic scholars not very reliable because they MUST be positively bias towards Islam as they have no choice or else their faith will not work.

To ensure I get an objective view I rely on other fields of rational knowledge and human nature to support my views.

Note my commentary on this issue.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43602778-post152.html
"Mu'min' is a specific term in the Quran therefore it is only related to Islam.
But the general principle of self-improvement underlying the concept of 'mu'min' i.e. progressive believe from low [general, loose] to high [specific] is generic to all human being in every aspect of human activities.
The underlying self-improvement underlying the concept of mu'min as in Islam exists in all religions.
In the Eastern religions the spiritual progress of a believer [submitter where applicable] is more detailed, complex and more efficient to drive one to a higher spiritual quotient. This processes changes the wiring of the neurons in the brain and effect real spiritual improvements.
The spiritual self-improvement potential in the Quran in general is kindergartenish.
Understanding Human Nature
What I always banked on is the understanding of Human Nature.
Basically at the level of the DNA structure, all humans share the same generic pattern.
Thus once we understand the human nature leveraged on the DNA, there is no knowledge that can escape us.
On this basis there is nothing the Quran that can be hidden or cannot be understood by human beings if we understand the complexity of the DNA and human nature. The Quran claims there are hidden things which humans cannot know. This is just a farce.
Just test me and I will explain everything in the Quran on the basis of the human DNA and human nature.

In this issue 'Muslim versus Mu'min' my views are similar to the all the Islamic scholars I read.
Khalif is the only exception one who has a different view.


I find my view of Muslim, Mumin and Mushin to be rhe same as what Khalif has been stating.

My own experience waent in this order, First a Musmin Then simultaneously Mushin and Muslim.

What I do find is there are many people who say they are Muslim, approxemently 1.7 Billion as I do not know if any of them are Muslim I anly know who says they are Mumin. I assume very person who claims to be Muslim is a Muslim, but that does not make them Muslim. Every person who has free will must believe and perform Islam to be Muslim. Those that do not have free wil, are Muslim, with nothing required of them that ubcludes shildren theat have not attained the ability to reason, the mentally incapacited and the physically unable. We are not required to do that which we can not do.
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When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

In this issue 'Muslim versus Mu'min' my views are similar to the all the Islamic scholars I read.
Khalif is the only exception one who has a different view.


I find my view of Muslim, Mumin and Mushin to be rhe same as what Khalif has been stating.

My own experience waent in this order, First a Musmin Then simultaneously Mushin and Muslim.

What I do find is there are many people who say they are Muslim, approxemently 1.7 Billion as I do not know if any of them are Muslim I anly know who says they are Mumin. I assume very person who claims to be Muslim is a Muslim, but that does not make them Muslim. Every person who has free will must believe and perform Islam to be Muslim. Those that do not have free wil, are Muslim, with nothing required of them that ubcludes shildren theat have not attained the ability to reason, the mentally incapacited and the physically unable. We are not required to do that which we can not do.
Unfortunately you are wrong with the above views.

1. Muslim [loose sense]
A Muslim is one who has submitted to Allah.
All Muslims by default has declared the Shahada in one form or another.
At this stage, they are Muslims [in the loose general sense].
All 1.5+ billion Muslims are Muslims [loose] sense.
A Muslim may believe before submitting but that is believe in the loose sense of low degree. They cannot be Mu'min [strict sense].

2. Muslim [strict sense]
A Muslim [loose] becomes a Muslim [strict] sense when he has performed the 5 pillars of Islam [pilgrimage not compulsory] correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.

3. Mu'min [strict sense]
A Muslim [strict sense] as in 2 above will progress to a Mu'min [strict sense] when he has performed the 6 pillars of eeman correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.

4. Mu'shin [strict sense]
A Mu'min [strict sense] as in 3 above will progress to a Mu'shin [strict sense] when he has performed the ? pillars of Inhsaan correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.


I suggest you do not present a confused mess of statement in your counters but based on the above order or wrong order if you think so.
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Unfortunately you are wrong with the above views.

1. Muslim [loose sense]
A Muslim is one who has submitted to Allah.
All Muslims by default has declared the Shahada in one form or another.
At this stage, they are Muslims [in the loose general sense].
All 1.5+ billion Muslims are Muslims [loose] sense.
A Muslim may believe before submitting but that is believe in the loose sense of low degree. They cannot be Mu'min [strict sense].

2. Muslim [strict sense]
A Muslim [loose] becomes a Muslim [strict] sense when he has performed the 5 pillars of Islam [pilgrimage not compulsory] correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.

3. Mu'min [strict sense]
A Muslim [strict sense] as in 2 above will progress to a Mu'min [strict sense] when he has performed the 6 pillars of eeman correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.

4. Mu'shin [strict sense]
A Mu'min [strict sense] as in 3 above will progress to a Mu'shin [strict sense] when he has performed the ? pillars of Inhsaan correctly, diligently and consistently for a reasonable time.


I suggest you do not present a confused mess of statement in your counters but based on the above order or wrong order if you think so.
The above is a messed up "order" created by people; not Allah.

A Mu'min does not "perform" 6 pillers of eeman. He just has eeman (faith in God). It is Muslim who performs in practice everything to do with faith.

There is a very simple way to understand such an "order":

Once you believe God, by believing any message from God, you are a "Believer" ("Mu'min"). Here is the proof from the Qur'an:

26:51 Surely we hope that our Lord will forgive us our wrongs because we are the first of the Mu'mineen.

These magicians had just believed the message Moses had delivered to the Pheroah. These magicians were the first ones to believe the message to Pheroah through Moses was from God. They hadn't yet done 5 pillers. Therefore, just believing a message from God makes one a Mu'min (Believer).

Being a Mu'min does not stop there or once a Mu'min always a Mu'min but the process of being a Mu'min is ongoing.

Once you obey any command in the message, you are a Muslim as well as Believer (Mu'min). From then on a Muslim has to obey all the commands. Once again, the process of being a Muslim carries on after obeying the first command.

A Believer (Mu'min) enters a covenant with Allah (one will never do this if he does not believe). Once he begins to comply with the first term in the covenant (submits), he is a Muslim. To stay a Muslim, he has to keep his side of the covenant.
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