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Old 04-06-2016, 02:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I find my view of Muslim, Mumin and Mushin to be rhe same as what Khalif has been stating.

My own experience waent in this order, First a Musmin Then simultaneously Mushin and Muslim.
That is the correct order!

There are so-called scholars who try to be too clever and mislead people sometimes even inadvertently. They are mixing up the terms Mu'min with the term Muslim. When trying to describe a Muslim who is strong in eeman (faith) and performs well anything related to his faith, they think he is good Mu'min. Yet, they should be thinking that he was a Mu'min and is now a Muslim complying, in practice, with all pillers of his faith, including having taqwa and doing good to other people.
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The above is a messed up "order" created by people; not Allah.

A Mu'min does not "perform" 6 pillers of eeman. He just has eeman (faith in God). It is Muslim who performs in practice everything to do with faith.

There is a very simple way to understand such an "order":

Once you believe God, by believing any message from God, you are a "Believer" ("Mu'min"). Here is the proof from the Qur'an:

26:51 Surely we hope that our Lord will forgive us our wrongs because we are the first of the Mu'mineen.

These magicians had just believed the message Moses had delivered to the Pheroah. These magicians were the first ones to believe the message to Pheroah through Moses was from God. They hadn't yet done 5 pillers. Therefore, just believing a message from God makes one a Mu'min (Believer).

Being a Mu'min does not stop there or once a Mu'min always a Mu'min but the process of being a Mu'min is ongoing.

Once you obey any command in the message, you are a Muslim as well as Believer (Mu'min). From then on a Muslim has to obey all the commands. Once again, the process of being a Muslim carries on after obeying the first command.

A Believer (Mu'min) enters a covenant with Allah (one will never do this if he does not believe). Once he begins to comply with the first term in the covenant (submits), he is a Muslim. To stay a Muslim, he has to keep his side of the covenant.
Your quoting of 26:51 is cherry picking and do not take into account the whole context of the Quran.
Note this two verses, i.e. 6:163 and 39:12
6:163 He hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena

39:12 And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
Waomirtu li-an akoona awwala almuslimeena
The above imply a person is first a 'almuslimeena.'

However according to you,
In 26:51 the Pharaohs are the first 'believers'.

So which is right?
It appear that Allah is issuing contradictory statements.

I would not condemn the Quran having such contradiction in this case.
To resolve this apparent 'contradiction' one need to use one's intelligence to reconcile the two statements by viewing them in the strict and loose sense and in context with other verses and the whole of the Quran.

To resolve and make sense of the above seemingly contradiction we review as follows;

26:51 is 'believe' [mumineen] in the loose sense without strong eeman.

6:163 & 39:12 represent 'almuslimeena' Muslims in the loose sense and upon submission.

To be a 'almuslimeena' Muslim [strict] or mumineed [strict], the Muslim[loose] will have to perform the 5 pillars of Islam and ~6 pillars of eeman respectively.

The above presentation is similar with followers of other religions and various aspect of self-development in life.

Quote:
Being a Mu'min does not stop there or once a Mu'min always a Mu'min but the process of being a Mu'min is ongoing.

Once you obey any command in the message, you are a Muslim as well as Believer (Mu'min). From then on a Muslim has to obey all the commands. Once again, the process of being a Muslim carries on after obeying the first command.

A Believer (Mu'min) enters a covenant with Allah (one will never do this if he does not believe). Once he begins to comply with the first term in the covenant (submits), he is a Muslim. To stay a Muslim, he has to keep his side of the covenant
I understand where you are coming from with the above but the above thinking is very kindergartenish in Islamic thought and not in line with the overall context of the Quran.

Quote:
A Believer (Mu'min) enters a covenant with Allah (one will never do this if he does not believe).
Re human psychology, it is possible for a person to enter into a covenant with Allah based on fears, intuition, and various extreme emotions.
Example in some cases a person [non-believer, atheists] facing execution or death [trapped somewhere] may out of extreme desperation suddenly [out of the blue] submit to Allah as he do not have time for 'believe'.
Once the person is lucky to be out of danger, then he will slowly cultivate his belief after the initial submission.
Therefore not all who submitted to Allah had 'believed.'
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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My forte is Philosophy and I am very well verse with basic logic and critical thinking.

In logic one of the classic bad, cheap and cheater are those who do not understand reality in the strict and loose sense. They mess and conflate the strict and loose sense to deceive others intentionally or ignorantly.

The classic logically error is the fallacy of equivocation where a term can be used in two senses, i.e. strict and loose.
Equivocation ("to call by the same name") is an informal logical fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time). It generally occurs with polysemic words (words with multiple meanings).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
You are one of those culprit who resort to the above bad and cheap logic.
I believe you are doing it out of psychological desperation, i.e. confirmation bias and ignorance of logical thinking.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your quoting of 26:51 is cherry picking and do not take into account the whole context of the Quran.
Note this two verses, i.e. 6:163 and 39:12
6:163 He hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena

39:12 And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
Waomirtu li-an akoona awwala almuslimeena
The above imply a person is first a 'almuslimeena.'
Your understanding of these verses is very poor.

Muhammad was commanded to be the first to submit to Allah and the rest of Believers (Mu'mineen) were to follow; submit and be Muslims. Muhammad was a Mu'min by the time he was required to be the first of the believers to be Muslim.

Quote:
However according to you,
In 26:51 the Pharaohs are the first 'believers'.

So which is right?
It appear that Allah is issuing contradictory statements.
All three verses are correct and compliment my view. There were Mu'mineen with Muhammad who had believed the verses of the Qur'an were from Allah. They were then commanded to do more than just be believers but be submitters too. Muhammad was the first one of those believers of the Qur'anic verses to submit. So he was the first of them to submit and be Muslim.

The first to believe the verses of the Qur'an were first of the believers and the first to submit in accordance with the Qur'anic verses was the first Muslim. The same way, first to believe a certain message through Moses were the first of believers of that message and the first to believe the message on the Mount Sinai was the first of the believers of the whole message on the Mount.

It looks as if you are having great problem in understanding what I am telling you.

Quote:
I would not condemn the Quran having such contradiction in this case.
To resolve this apparent 'contradiction' one need to use one's intelligence to reconcile the two statements by viewing them in the strict and loose sense and in context with other verses and the whole of the Quran.
I see no contradiction because my view is in order of the Qur'an. Your order is twisted order that does not go along with the order in the Qur'an.

Quote:
To resolve and make sense of the above seemingly contradiction we review as follows;

26:51 is 'believe' [mumineen] in the loose sense without strong eeman.

6:163 & 39:12 represent 'almuslimeena' Muslims in the loose sense and upon submission.

To be a 'almuslimeena' Muslim [strict] or mumineed [strict], the Muslim[loose] will have to perform the 5 pillars of Islam and ~6 pillars of eeman respectively.

The above presentation is similar with followers of other religions and various aspect of self-development in life.
The self-development is simple for a Muslim. Believe first and then submit to be successful in the hereafter. There is no need to do mental gymnastics in order to assume something that is not stated.

Quote:
I understand where you are coming from with the above but the above thinking is very kindergartenish in Islamic thought and not in line with the overall context of the Quran.
The only reason I am still going in this topic is that my understanding of the terms is in accord and with the context of the Qur'an. If we use only the Qur'an, I can't be proved incorrect and you have no hope of being correct.

Quote:
Re human psychology, it is possible for a person to enter into a covenant with Allah based on fears, intuition, and various extreme emotions.
Impossible unless he believes in Allah. A person like you (unbeliever) will have no fear of something he is sure does not even exist.

Quote:
Example in some cases a person [non-believer, atheists] facing execution or death [trapped somewhere] may out of extreme desperation suddenly [out of the blue] submit to Allah as he do not have time for 'believe'.
The moment he decides to submit to Allah, he is already believing in Allah. The Pheroah did the same when about to die. Such submitting is too late unless you survive and do not change your mind again.

Quote:
Once the person is lucky to be out of danger, then he will slowly cultivate his belief after the initial submission.
Therefore not all who submitted to Allah had 'believed.'
He already had the belief the moment before his submission to Allah. Submission is not belief but practicing the belief you already have.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Your understanding of these verses is very poor.

Muhammad was commanded to be the first to submit to Allah and the rest of Believers (Mu'mineen) were to follow; submit and be Muslims. Muhammad was a Mu'min by the time he was required to be the first of the believers to be Muslim.
There is no indication in this verse that Muhammad was a mu'min.
You are inventing your own word in those verses.

Muhammad was the first to submit as a Muslim by virtue of he being chosen by Allah as a messenger.
Whether Muhammad believe or not, he has no choice because it was God's will that he must submit.

Quote:
All three verses are correct and compliment my view. There were Mu'mineen with Muhammad who had believed the verses of the Qur'an were from Allah. They were then commanded to do more than just be believers but be submitters too. Muhammad was the first one of those believers of the Qur'anic verses to submit. So he was the first of them to submit and be Muslim.
If there is any believe from Muhammad, it is believe in the loose term.

Quote:
The first to believe the verses of the Qur'an were first of the believers and the first to submit in accordance with the Qur'anic verses was the first Muslim. The same way, first to believe a certain message through Moses were the first of believers of that message and the first to believe the message on the Mount Sinai was the first of the believers of the whole message on the Mount.
Btw, don't forget my emphasis is not whether believe precede submit or vice-versa.
My point as I has in this OP
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
is 'Believe is of a higher grade spiritual element than submit.'
This is why the pillars of eeman [practiced by a mumin {strict}] is of higher ranking than the 5 pillars of Islam [submission].

If there is any believe preceding submit [which is not imperative] that 'believe' is a loose and low degree [1-5%] believe.
Note this is confirmed by 49:14 & 17.

Quote:
It looks as if you are having great problem in understanding what I am telling you.
I don't have a problem with understanding what you are trying to tell me. The problem is I don't agree with your argument because it is not in accordance with Allah's intent in the Quran.

Quote:
I see no contradiction because my view is in order of the Qur'an. Your order is twisted order that does not go along with the order in the Qur'an.
There is obviously a contradiction from your point of view, i.e.

26:51 Implied Mumin first
6:163 & 39:12 stated Muslim first.
The above is obvious a contradiction.
A and not-A cannot be the same.

Quote:
The self-development is simple for a Muslim. Believe first and then submit to be successful in the hereafter. There is no need to do mental gymnastics in order to assume something that is not stated.
Spiritual self-development is not that easy. It is easier for the camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a Muslim to progress to be a mu'min, mushin or muttagin so it is said.

Quote:
The only reason I am still going in this topic is that my understanding of the terms is in accord and with the context of the Qur'an. If we use only the Qur'an, I can't be proved incorrect and you have no hope of being correct.
You are trapped by confirmation bias and it not thinking critically, thus your view is incorrect and do not tie in with the context of the whole Quran.

Quote:
Impossible unless he believes in Allah. A person like you (unbeliever) will have no fear of something he is sure does not even exist.
This is why you are ignorant of human nature. There is no imperative for believe to precede submit.
In real life many people are force by circumstances, intuition, instincts, emotions [fear, etc.] to submit to another. For example a slave submit because of 'force' and 'threat' not because of 'believe' [loose or strict]. Thus it is possible for a slave of Allah to submit without believe.
If there is any believe preceding any submission, that believe is a low degree belief [1-5%] not 'believe' [strict ->50% in degree]

Quote:
The moment he decides to submit to Allah, he is already believing in Allah. The Pheroah did the same when about to die. Such submitting is too late unless you survive and do not change your mind again.
Not in all cases. The 'believe' in the Pharaoh's case was a low degree [1-5%] belief [loose].

Quote:
He already had the belief the moment before his submission to Allah. Submission is not belief but practicing the belief you already have.
Submission is not practicing the belief either. Submission meant giving up of one's will to another. In one extreme, when a person submit his will to another and if his "master" ask him to eat sh:t, the submitter will voluntarily and spontaneous eat sh:t without question. That is what submission [strict] is concern. Submission is indicate the willingness in obeying subsequent commands not practicing the belief.

The point is your views are based on ignorance of human nature, reality and thus influence your bad interpretation of the Quran in this case.
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is a knowledge of human nature which is applicable to understand the range of the meaning of 'believe'.

Note the concept of 'thinking'.

Generally [not specifically] every human action must be accompanied by thoughts.
All thinking involve thoughts in the brain.
The one who does the thinking is a thinker [loose].

But a thinker [loose] need not be a thinker [strict].
A thinker [strict] is one who does serious thinking, i.e. deep reflections, serious critical and analytical thinking, and the likes. This is symbolized by Rodin's thinker as below.




The above example is applicable to the concept of believe.
Believe or believer can be in the loose sense or strict sense.
The believe you banked on that precede 'submit' is always in the loose sense or low degrees.


Action without thinking?
Within human nature and human psychology there are many aspects of actions where thinking [thinking part of the brain] and even thoughts are not involved at all.
Reflect actions do not involve thoughts.
Instinctual actions also do not involve thoughts.
Certain emotional based actions also do not involve active thinking.

Note believing is also thinking.
From the above there are actions [submitting] that do need not involved believing [thinking].
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a knowledge of human nature which is applicable to understand the range of the meaning of 'believe'.

Note the concept of 'thinking'.

Generally [not specifically] every human action must be accompanied by thoughts.
All thinking involve thoughts in the brain.
The one who does the thinking is a thinker [loose].

But a thinker [loose] need not be a thinker [strict].
A thinker [strict] is one who does serious thinking, i.e. deep reflections, serious critical and analytical thinking, and the likes. This is symbolized by Rodin's thinker as below.




The above example is applicable to the concept of believe.
Believe or believer can be in the loose sense or strict sense.
The believe you banked on that precede 'submit' is always in the loose sense or low degrees.


Action without thinking?
Within human nature and human psychology there are many aspects of actions where thinking [thinking part of the brain] and even thoughts are not involved at all.
Reflect actions do not involve thoughts.
Instinctual actions also do not involve thoughts.
Certain emotional based actions also do not involve active thinking.

Note believing is also thinking.
From the above there are actions [submitting] that do need not involved believing [thinking].
You are off topic here.

In Islam, a Mu'min is someone who has Eeman that the Qur'an is a revelation from Allah, and as described in 2:136. This requires Eeman about Allah and the messenger who delivers the message given to him from Allah..

Therefore, in Islam, believing simply means having Eeman, and a believer is Mu'min.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no indication in this verse that Muhammad was a mu'min.
You are inventing your own word in those verses.
What! You can't see Muhammad having Eeman about the revelation of the Qur'an from Allah but was preaching about One True God (Allah) as an unbeliever?

For God's sake read the Qur'an another 50 times and ponder over the ayyat 6:163, 39:12, 6:14, 10:104, 2791 and 911-12. You will find that he was Mu'min first and then first Muslim.

Quote:
Muhammad was the first to submit as a Muslim by virtue of he being chosen by Allah as a messenger.
Whether Muhammad believe or not, he has no choice because it was God's will that he must submit.
How did Muhammad know that it is God's will and that he was chosen by Allah if he did not believe (have Eeman) that he has to be the first to submit? Who was he to submit to? Can you do some criical thinking here?

I am surprised that your understanding about the Qur'an is so low!

Quote:
If there is any believe from Muhammad, it is believe in the loose term.
And what is such "loose term" called in the Arabic language in which the Qur'an was revealed?

Quote:
Btw, don't forget my emphasis is not whether believe precede submit or vice-versa.
My point as I has in this OP
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
is 'Believe is of a higher grade spiritual element than submit.'
This is why the pillars of eeman [practiced by a mumin {strict}] is of higher ranking than the 5 pillars of Islam [submission].
How do you know that when you are neither a Mu'min nor a Muslim?

6 pillers of eeman is invention. Everything mentioned in your 6 pillers of eeman are part and parcel of 5 pillers of Islam. None of it is outside the 5 pillers of Islam. You have been diverted on another path due to your own ignorance about 6 pillers of eeman not being outside the 5 pillers of Islam.

Quote:
If there is any believe preceding submit [which is not imperative] that 'believe' is a loose and low degree [1-5%] believe.
Note this is confirmed by 49:14 & 17.
49:14 confirms 0% believe (eeman). No eeman means no not even the first piller. 5 pillers of submission begin with precise term to do with eeman. Without eeman (faith/believe), 5 pillers come crashing down immediately.Without believe/eeman/faith, there would be no submission or submitting to Allah. A person without eeman is non-muslim/non-believer. Believing/having eeman is prerequisite before you can become a Muslim. Shahada confirms that you believe and have complied with the first of 5 pillers of Islam..

Quote:
I don't have a problem with understanding what you are trying to tell me. The problem is I don't agree with your argument because it is not in accordance with Allah's intent in the Quran.
My argument is in accordance with the message of the Qur'an. It is precisely because of my knowledge about the whole Qur'an that I can argue on this point.

Quote:
There is obviously a contradiction from your point of view, i.e.

26:51 Implied Mumin first
6:163 & 39:12 stated Muslim first.
The above is obvious a contradiction.
A and not-A cannot be the same.
In reality, there is no contradiction from my point of view. The contradiction is only in your mind due to you not being able to understand these verses. In 26:51, they believed, became Mu'mineen because they had believed in the message Moses had brought to the Pheroah. They were the first to believe this message and, therefore, first of the Mu'mineen. In 6:163 and 39:12 as with 6:14, 10:104, 27:91 and 39:10-11 (the context of 39:12), believing is before submitting. Check the context of each of these verses.

Quote:
Spiritual self-development is not that easy. It is easier for the camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a Muslim to progress to be a mu'min, mushin or muttagin so it is said.
7:40 is not about Muslim but about unbelievers. Jesus also said it about a rich man not going to heaven.

Quote:
You are trapped by confirmation bias and it not thinking critically, thus your view is incorrect and do not tie in with the context of the whole Quran.
My view is according to the context of the WHOLE Qur'an. You are trapped in your view remote from the whole of the Qur'an. I can quote verse after verse to support my view; you can't.

Quote:
This is why you are ignorant of human nature. There is no imperative for believe to precede submit.
On this board, I am discussing Islam according to the Qur'an. You are talking about believe and submit in secular sense, ignorant of Islamic sense.

Quote:
In real life many people are force by circumstances, intuition, instincts, emotions [fear, etc.] to submit to another. For example a slave submit because of 'force' and 'threat' not because of 'believe' [loose or strict]. Thus it is possible for a slave of Allah to submit without believe.
You prove my last point. You also prove me correct in my view in case of 49:14.

Quote:
If there is any believe preceding any submission, that believe is a low degree belief [1-5%] not 'believe' [strict ->50% in degree]
In 49:14, there is 0% believe, which is no believe at all, and not even the first pillers of Submission.

Quote:
Not in all cases. The 'believe' in the Pharaoh's case was a low degree [1-5%] belief [loose].
It was at least some believe rather than no believe as in 49:14.

Quote:
Submission is not practicing the belief either.
It is practicing 5 pillers of Islam which includes 6 pillers of eeman (believe/faith).

Quote:
Submission meant giving up of one's will to another.
In Islam, it is voluntary submission that helps none but oneself.

Quote:
In one extreme, when a person submit his will to another and if his "master" ask him to eat sh:t, the submitter will voluntarily and spontaneous eat sh:t without question.
You are talking about a secular slave and his master. Allah has never asked anyone to eat sh$t even though He can make you eat it because you keep producing it.

Quote:
That is what submission [strict] is concern. Submission is indicate the willingness in obeying subsequent commands not practicing the belief.
One can practice/express eeman through Islam only.

Quote:
The point is your views are based on ignorance of human nature, reality and thus influence your bad interpretation of the Quran in this case.
And your views are based on secular language in ignorance of the Qur'anic language and Islamic faith. On this board, you are always going to be in need of catch up when relying on secular terms to understand religious terms.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What! You can't see Muhammad having Eeman about the revelation of the Qur'an from Allah but was preaching about One True God (Allah) as an unbeliever?

For God's sake read the Qur'an another 50 times and ponder over the ayyat 6:163, 39:12, 6:14, 10:104, 2791 and 911-12. You will find that he was Mu'min first and then first Muslim.
6:163 mentioned Muhammad is the first to surrender. i.e. islam [aslama] which is not eeman.

In principle Muhammad has to submit before he became a Muslim [loose].
There is no other way about it.

In any case, Muhammad was supposed to be merely Allah's "tape recorder" or "parrot" so there is no need for Muhammad to have high eeman to 'parrot' what Allah has delivered [via Gabriel] to his brain.
If there is any eeman before Islam, then that eeman is in the loose form.

Because Muhammad is Allah chosen messenger, in his later preaching his development of eeman after Islam could be faster than the average person.

Quote:
How did Muhammad know that it is God's will and that he was chosen by Allah if he did not believe (have Eeman) that he has to be the first to submit? Who was he to submit to? Can you do some criical thinking here?
I am surprised that your understanding about the Qur'an is so low!
Note Chapter 96.
Muhammad was commanded to read!
In a way, Muhammad was "forced" to submit upon the hearing of voices.
If there is any eeman, it is in the loose sense not in the strict sense.
To acquire eeman in the strict sense, one has to work for it by performing the necessary pillars of eeman.


Quote:
And what is such "loose term" called in the Arabic language in which the Qur'an was revealed?
When a term is used in the 'strict' or 'loose' term, it is the SAME term/word. The different sense is deduced from the context. So there is no different term in the Arabic language for a term that is used in the strict or loose term.

Quote:
How do you know that when you are neither a Mu'min nor a Muslim?

6 pillers of eeman is invention. Everything mentioned in your 6 pillers of eeman are part and parcel of 5 pillers of Islam. None of it is outside the 5 pillers of Islam. You have been diverted on another path due to your own ignorance about 6 pillers of eeman not being outside the 5 pillers of Islam.
Yes the 6 pillars and also the 5 pillars of Islam are inventions but they are essential for improvements and their being display spiritual intelligence on the part of those who started the term and those who accept these terms.

How do we know whether a student is a Kindergarten, grade school, vocational school, college, masters or PhD students?
Since you are from the education community, you should know there are certain criteria [curriculum, syllabus, examinations, etc.] to determine the type of students.

It is the same for how the Quran describe a Muslim [strict] and Mu'min [strict].

The criticalness of the above category of Muslims [loose] will facilitate the self-improvement of the individual Muslims as exhorted by Allah in the Quran.

Quote:
49:14 confirms 0% believe (eeman). No eeman means no not even the first piller. 5 pillers of submission begin with precise term to do with eeman. Without eeman (faith/believe), 5 pillers come crashing down immediately.Without believe/eeman/faith, there would be no submission or submitting to Allah. A person without eeman is non-muslim/non-believer. Believing/having eeman is prerequisite before you can become a Muslim. Shahada confirms that you believe and have complied with the first of 5 pillers of Islam..
This is where you are ignorant on this matter in the Quran because you have read it only 6-7 times.

Note the word 'believe' appears 1141 time(s) in 920 verse(s).
I don't have the exact figures, but based on what I have read, most of the word 'believe' are with reference to 'eeman' [amanu, amana, etc.]

Now the point is because the word 'believe' [eeman] is so prevalent, it is used in the 'loose' and 'strict' sense and some are in between. ALL these 1141 times are not used in the same sense.

Therefore each time we come across the term 'eeman' [amanu, amana, etc.] we need to refer to the context and note in which sense [strict or loose] the term is used.

The problem with your reading is you REFUSE to acknowledge there is the strict and loose sense to the term eeman, Islam [submission], Muslim [strict or loose], etc.

The context of 49:14 enable one to distinguish the difference between strict and loose eeman and thus between 'Muslim [strict] and Mumin [strict].

Quote:
And your views are based on secular language in ignorance of the Qur'anic language and Islamic faith. On this board, you are always going to be in need of catch up when relying on secular terms to understand religious terms.
To be objective one has to apply the right language [linguistics and semantics] to understand religious terms or whatever terms [scientific, philosophy, education, etc.].
When one is not objective, one is speaking from one's own subjective imaginary world which no one can verify.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
6:163 mentioned Muhammad is the first to surrender. i.e. islam [aslama] which is not eeman.
First of what? A critical thinker would know. But you won't know because you have ignored all the verses I had mentioned.

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In principle Muhammad has to submit before he became a Muslim [loose].
There is no other way about it.
Submit to whom, if not to Allah?

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In any case, Muhammad was supposed to be merely Allah's "tape recorder" or "parrot" so there is no need for Muhammad to have high eeman to 'parrot' what Allah has delivered [via Gabriel] to his brain.
If there is any eeman before Islam, then that eeman is in the loose form.
Even that is not 0% eeman as is in case of wandering Arabs in 49:14.

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Because Muhammad is Allah chosen messenger, in his later preaching his development of eeman after Islam could be faster than the average person.
There would have been no preaching at all if he did not have eeman. If you can't think that, you are not a critical thinker but merely waffling.

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Note Chapter 96.
Muhammad was commanded to read!
In a way, Muhammad was "forced" to submit upon the hearing of voices.
If there is any eeman, it is in the loose sense not in the strict sense.
To acquire eeman in the strict sense, one has to work for it by performing the necessary pillars of eeman.
And that can be done only through the 5 pillers of Islam. It is impossible to "perform" 6 pillers of eeman outside the 5 pillers of Islam. Unfortunately you can't understand that because you do not understand much about Islam.

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When a term is used in the 'strict' or 'loose' term, it is the SAME term/word. The different sense is deduced from the context. So there is no different term in the Arabic language for a term that is used in the strict or loose term.
There goes your silly argument out of the window! There are no loose terms in the Qur'an but only in your head.

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Yes the 6 pillars and also the 5 pillars of Islam are inventions but they are essential for improvements and their being display spiritual intelligence on the part of those who started the term and those who accept these terms.
The only terms that count are the terms in the Qur'an. And there are no loose terms but only precise terms in there.

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How do we know whether a student is a Kindergarten, grade school, vocational school, college, masters or PhD students?
Since you are from the education community, you should know there are certain criteria [curriculum, syllabus, examinations, etc.] to determine the type of students.

It is the same for how the Quran describe a Muslim [strict] and Mu'min [strict].
Don't make me laugh with your silly analogies!

A Mu'min believes (has eeman), and a Muslim goes further and proves it in practice.

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The criticalness of the above category of Muslims [loose] will facilitate the self-improvement of the individual Muslims as exhorted by Allah in the Quran.
By practicing 5 pillers of Islam that include 6 pillers of eeman!

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This is where you are ignorant on this matter in the Quran because you have read it only 6-7 times.
Actually, you do not know what you are saying here because you haven't understood the Qur'an even after reading it fast over 50 timesThe veil described in 6:25 is stopping you from understanding it.

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Note the word 'believe' appears 1141 time(s) in 920 verse(s).
I don't have the exact figures, but based on what I have read, most of the word 'believe' are with reference to 'eeman' [amanu, amana, etc.]
It is fundamental element in any Muslim's Islam. It is so because the fundamental piller in Islam is the first piller. The other pillers stand on this one piller. If this one piller falls, all the rest fall and your submitting will be to another human only.

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Now the point is because the word 'believe' [eeman] is so prevalent, it is used in the 'loose' and 'strict' sense and some are in between. ALL these 1141 times are not used in the same sense.
All are only one term; the precise term.

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Therefore each time we come across the term 'eeman' [amanu, amana, etc.] we need to refer to the context and note in which sense [strict or loose] the term is used.
Each time you read this Arabic word in the Qur'an, which you can't read, it relates to eeman and not secular believe. It is the secular believe that is the loose term but in the Qur'an it is the precise term.

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The problem with your reading is you REFUSE to acknowledge there is the strict and loose sense to the term eeman, Islam [submission], Muslim [strict or loose], etc.
Because you only believe but have not the eeman, you can't understand these precise terms and foolishly try to mix them with your loose terms.

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The context of 49:14 enable one to distinguish the difference between strict and loose eeman and thus between 'Muslim [strict] and Mumin [strict].
There is no eeman in wandering Arabs. It is made clear in the verse. They had failed to comply with even the first piller. Their submitting could not have been to Allah because it requires eeman.

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To be objective one has to apply the right language [linguistics and semantics] to understand religious terms or whatever terms [scientific, philosophy, education, etc.].
When one is not objective, one is speaking from one's own subjective imaginary world which no one can verify.
Yes, when one does not understand the language of the Qur'an, all kind of loose thoughts come into his mind which have nothing to do with thr language of the Qur'an.
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