U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-08-2016, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
First of what? A critical thinker would know. But you won't know because you have ignored all the verses I had mentioned.
Submit to whom, if not to Allah?
You are not a critical thinker.

Note 6:163
6:163. He [Allah] hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena

I have taken into account all the verses you quoted.
It would fairer if you were to list the verses you quoted rather than expecting to search for them. I have a bit of problem because the Quran I am reading is arranged in chronological order and to rearrange them back to normal order is tedious.

First to surrender imply 'islam' not eeman.
If eeman is not mentioned, then the emphasis in context is not related to mu'min.
This is basic logic and critical thinking.

If there is any mentioned to 'eeman' this is believe in the loose sense and not the strict sense.

Obviously it is submission to Allah.
You think it is submission to Muhammad?

Quote:
There would have been no preaching at all if he did not have eeman. If you can't think that, you are not a critical thinker but merely waffling.
Note there is a difference between Muhammad parroting what he has received from Gabriel and Muhammad preaching the message of Allah.
When Muhammad was reciting the Chapters he cannot be preaching because preaching will include his own interpretations, expounding and words.
When Muhammad recite to his scribes or others he has to parrot exactly what he has "heard" in his brain without adding a single of his words, otherwise that would be corruption.

When Muhammad recited what Allah delivered, there was no need to any strong eeman, all he need is just to regurgitate what he received from Gabriel.

When Muhammad preaches, he is not parroting the verses, he has to expound and explain, thus adding his own words. In this case, yes, preaching need some degree of eeman.

Quote:
And that can be done only through the 5 pillers of Islam. It is impossible to "perform" 6 pillers of eeman outside the 5 pillers of Islam. Unfortunately you can't understand that because you do not understand much about Islam.
Note the 5 pillars of Islam
1.1 Shahada: Faith
1.2 Salat: Prayer
1.3 Zakāt: Charity
1.4 Sawm: Fasting
1.5 Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca
The five pillars can be done physically and sincerely.
Note the 6 pillars of eeman,

1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.

2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.

3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.

4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.

5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.

6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
While the 5 pillars of Islam can be perform mostly physically & externally with some internal element, Absolute and total belief of the 6 pillars of eeman require some degree of mental efforts and time. To achieve absolute and total belief one need to be very familiar with the 6,236 verses of the Quran.


Quote:
There goes your silly argument out of the window! There are no loose terms in the Qur'an but only in your head. I'll leave you drown in your ignorance.

The only terms that count are the terms in the Qur'an. And there are no loose terms but only precise terms in there.
Quote:
Don't make me laugh with your silly analogies!
You don't understand the use of analogies??
When you laugh at analogies you are insulting your own intelligence.
An analogy is used as a parallel to make a point clearer.
If you cannot get it, then forget it.
If one cannot get the point, then the other will have to use other analogies.

Quote:
A Mu'min believes (has eeman), and a Muslim goes further and proves it in practice.
According the Quran a Muslim [loose] is a basic Muslim-in-general by virtue of the declaration of the Shahada.
A mu'min [strict] must achieve sufficient degrees of the 6 pillars of eeman [see above].

Quote:
By practicing 5 pillers of Islam that include 6 pillers of eeman!
NO.
See the listing of the 5 pillars of Islam and 6 pillars of eeman above. They are independent sets.
One can start to do the two sets together but the 6 pillars of eeman will always override the 5 pillars of islam [kindergarten].

Quote:
Actually, you do not know what you are saying here because you haven't understood the Qur'an even after reading it fast over 50 times. The veil described in 6:25 is stopping you from understanding it.
This is merely your babbling.
Note the first time I took a long time and I could read faster and faster as I increase the number of times to 10, 20, 30, 40, 50. Surely you understand the concept of "Learning Curve in Education" yes? no?
You cannot deny I have not understood the Quran, especially in contrast to the average non-Muslim and the average Muslim.

Quote:
It is fundamental element in any Muslim's Islam. It is so because the fundamental piller in Islam is the first piller. The other pillers stand on this one piller. If this one piller falls, all the rest fall and your submitting will be to another human only.
This only show your ignorance in this concept.
Note the listing of 5 Pillars of Islam and 6 Pillars of Eeman.
I have done a search on the word 'believe' in the verses and read all these verses to understand their use in the strict and loose sense. Try it yourself.

Quote:
All are only one term; the precise term.
Still insisting based on ignorance.
Note the different sets of the 5 Pillars of Islam and the 6 Pillars of Eeman.

Quote:
Each time you read this Arabic word in the Qur'an, which you can't read, it relates to eeman and not secular believe. It is the secular believe that is the loose term but in the Qur'an it is the precise term.
There is a sense of the strict and loose term of believe [eeman] based on the context within the Quran.

Quote:
Because you only believe but have not the eeman, you can't understand these precise terms and foolishly try to mix them with your loose terms.
I believe I have reasonable intellectual and spiritual intelligence to express what is objective.

Quote:
There is no eeman in wandering Arabs. It is made clear in the verse. They had failed to comply with even the first piller. Their submitting could not have been to Allah because it requires eeman.
Your views are wrong here. If you take into account eeman in the strict sense as listed in the 6 Pillars of eeman, then you will understand what I meant and how 49:14 & 17 should be interpreted.

Quote:
Yes, when one does not understand the language of the Qur'an, all kind of loose thoughts come into his mind which have nothing to do with the language of the Qur'an.
This is the usual crap when you run out of intellectual and objective arguments.
There is nothing special about the language of the Quran and there is nothing the Quran can hide as far as reality is concern.
I am very well verse with the full perspective of what is reality and from it the Quran is kindergarten stuff.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-08-2016, 06:08 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are not a critical thinker.

Note 6:163
6:163. He [Allah] hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena
A critical thinker would have said, "He (Allah) hath no partner" is expression of eeman in Allah.
This is why it is before the part about submitting/surrendering.

But of course you were not critical thinker when reading this verses too fast.

Quote:
I have taken into account all the verses you quoted.
It would fairer if you were to list the verses you quoted rather than expecting to search for them.
Spoon-feeding is done for the primary school children. College and university students do their own search.

Quote:
I have a bit of problem because the Quran I am reading is arranged in chronological order and to rearrange them back to normal order is tedious.
You haven't learnt much by rearranging the order. The NORMAL order is for a good reason.

Quote:
First to surrender imply 'islam' not eeman.
Firt to suurender implies first out of believers to surrender.

Quote:
If eeman is not mentioned, then the emphasis in context is not related to mu'min.
This is basic logic and critical thinking.
First out of believers to surrender means first out of believers to surrender and thus become Muslim as well as carry on being a believer (mu'min).

Quote:
If there is any mentioned to 'eeman' this is believe in the loose sense and not the strict sense.
One will not surrender to Allah unless he has eeman. You are a classic example.

[UOTE]Obviously it is submission to Allah.[/quote]Then eeman is there about Allah before submission to Him.

Quote:
You think it is submission to Muhammad?
How can it be submission to Allah if there is no eeman at all about Allah? Do some criical thinking here!

Quote:
Note there is a difference between Muhammad parroting what he has received from Gabriel and Muhammad preaching the message of Allah.
Did you read 3:193? The preacher was Muhammad.

Quote:
When Muhammad was reciting the Chapters he cannot be preaching because preaching will include his own interpretations, expounding and words.
He could preach only Allah's words. Delivering the Qur'an is preaching the Qur'an. Allah had given him permission to preach them.

Quote:
When Muhammad recite to his scribes or others he has to parrot exactly what he has "heard" in his brain without adding a single of his words, otherwise that would be corruption.
Make up your mind whether the Qur'an is from Allah or Muhammad! You keep jumping from one view to the other.

Quote:
When Muhammad recited what Allah delivered, there was no need to any strong eeman, all he need is just to regurgitate what he received from Gabriel.
In that case you do not even understand what eeman is. If Allah had done the same with you (LOL), you would not have recited it but ignored it because you have no eeman, and Muhammad was not unbeliever when he was reciting the Qur'an.

[
Quote:
]When Muhammad preaches, he is not parroting the verses, he has to expound and explain, thus adding his own words. In this case, yes, preaching need some degree of eeman.
He did that too and more; he had practiced what he had preached.

Quote:
Note the 5 pillars of Islam
1.1 Shahada: Faith
1.2 Salat: Prayer
1.3 Zakāt: Charity
1.4 Sawm: Fasting
1.5 Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca
The five pillars can be done physically and sincerely.
Note the 6 pillars of eeman,

1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.

2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.

3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.

4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.

5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.

6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
While the 5 pillars of Islam can be perform mostly physically & externally with some internal element, Absolute and total belief of the 6 pillars of eeman require some degree of mental efforts and time. To achieve absolute and total belief one need to be very familiar with the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
By the time the believers with eeman were told to submit, not all the verses had been revealed. This is proof enough that 6 pillers of eeman are within the first piller of Islam. Someone has giving you too much to digest when the very first piller in Islam is all about eeman (faith).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2016, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A critical thinker would have said, "He (Allah) hath no partner" is expression of eeman in Allah.
This is why it is before the part about submitting/surrendering.
There is no need for an all powerful Allah to express eeman. That is just a statement from Allah like every other statement from Allah.

Quote:
Spoon-feeding is done for the primary school children. College and university students do their own search.
What you have done is not a gentleman's protocol. Where I have a list of 200 verses on hand, I could have given reference to only the number [no contents] of the 200 verses and ask you to look up all the verses. Would that be reasonable?

Quote:
You haven't learnt much by rearranging the order. The NORMAL order is for a good reason.
This is not part of the argument. I was just requesting you to be more of a intellectual gentlemen rather than an intellectual gangster.

Quote:
First to suurender implies first out of believers to surrender.

First out of believers to surrender means first out of believers to surrender and thus become Muslim as well as carry on being a believer (mu'min).
This is a small kid thinking who do not think further on the context than what the read.
As I had mentioned else all people believe all the time.
A person who surrender/submit MAY [not necessary in all cases] believe, but such a "believe" is in the loose sense not in the strict sense of BELIEVE.

Note in 49:14
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe [in the strict sense].
Allah responded [via Muhammad]:
No you all have not believed [in the strict sense] but merely have believed in the loose sense when you all have submitted to US [Allah].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The 6 pillars of eeman,

1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.
2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.
3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.
4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.
5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.
6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
Quote:
Someone has giving you too much to digest when the very first piller in Islam is all about eeman (faith).
I have relied on the above for quick reference and presentation.
I had understood the concept of eeman as in the Quran by reading the Quran myself based on my extensive knowledge of spirituality and religiosity.

The first pillar of Islam is actually submission-in-the-strict-sense. The faith indicated therein is in the loose and general sense. The first pillar of Islam is merely a declaration of a statement of the Shahada and nothing else. How can that be ALL about eeman?

For a Muslim to progress, as exhorted by Allah in the Quran, the Muslim must perform the 6 Pillars of eeman diligently, consistently within a reasonable time to achieve sufficient competence. A Muslim do not develope competence in strong eeman by merely declaring the Shahada.

Your problem with understanding the Quran is you are trapped within one rigid sense of a term. This is small kid thinking.
If you want to be a better Muslim efficiently it will bode well for you to be familiar with the 6 pillars of eeman and other necessary pillars to advance oneself. One has to be an l-albābi [الْأَلْبَابِ].

Btw, note the spelling of "Pillar" [supporting columns] not 'piller' which is a plunderer, e.g. Muhammad pillaging of caravans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 02:58 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no need for an all powerful Allah to express eeman. That is just a statement from Allah like every other statement from Allah.
You misunderstand. It is there for a reason. It is there as part of the same verse. It must be taken into account when considering the rest of the verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
What you have done is not a gentleman's protocol. Where I have a list of 200 verses on hand, I could have given reference to only the number [no contents] of the 200 verses and ask you to look up all the verses. Would that be reasonable?
You giving me 200 verses in numbers only is no problem. I can just take a sample or two to understand what you are trying to express. I can check any verse number you give in just a few second.

Quote:
This is not part of the argument. I was just requesting you to be more of a intellectual gentlemen rather than an intellectual gangster.
My apology if you thought that I acted like an intellecual gangster. As I have debated about Islam and about the verses of the Qur'an on the "net" for over 16 years, I have learnt to be intellctual gentleman with the intellectual gentemen, and intellectual gangster with the intellectual gangsters. I have the capacity to just switch the polarity the other way round as the load requires.

Quote:
This is a small kid thinking who do not think further on the context than what the read.
As I had mentioned else all people believe all the time.
A person who surrender/submit MAY [not necessary in all cases] believe, but such a "believe" is in the loose sense not in the strict sense of BELIEVE.
Yes, that's what I thought. You are thinking about believe in secular sense.

Quote:
Note in 49:14 .
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe [in the strict sense].
Allah responded [via Muhammad]:
No you all have not believed [in the strict sense] but merely have believed in the loose sense when you all have submitted to US [Allah].
You are imagining way outside the limit. Allah (SWT) is absolutely clear in this verses that they had not believed at all as the eeman hadn't even entered their hearts. You are just making it up in your own imagination that Allah responded that they believed when they submitted to US. There is no mention in the verse that they had submitted to US. They didn't even have belief in "US", how could they have submitted to "US"?

Quote:
I have relied on the above for quick reference and presentation.
I had understood the concept of eeman as in the Quran by reading the Quran myself based on my extensive knowledge of spirituality and religiosity.
You are making a big mistake. The Qur'an is not like any other book. It is unique and the only one of its type. You cannot understand it from outside as you can understand it from inside. It is spirit and light. You are not going to receive the spirit or let in the light unless you open the door of your mind to it. It is worded in such a unique way that only a sincere reader will understand it and benefit from it. A mere reading of it will drive the insincere miles away from it. It is not meant for spoon-feeding you. It clearly tells you to read and ponder over its ayyat (verses). Only the sincere ones will ponder over its ayyat and comprehend the message.

38:29 A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that endowed with understanding may be mindful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiiuum
The first pillar of Islam is actually submission-in-the-strict-sense. The faith indicated therein is in the loose and general sense. The first pillar of Islam is merely a declaration of a statement of the Shahada and nothing else. How can that be ALL about eeman?
Everything about eeman is condensed in it. Shahada means "witnessing" of "faith". It is witnessing (submitting with tongue) of faith (eeman). Without this fundamental of Islam, nobody csn be either mu'min or muslim. It is the beginning the middle and the end of whole Islam. It is proclaimed many times every day in this world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
For a Muslim to progress, as exhorted by Allah in the Quran, the Muslim must perform the 6 Pillars of eeman diligently, consistently within a reasonable time to achieve sufficient competence. A Muslim do not develope competence in strong eeman by merely declaring the Shahada.
You misunderstand Shahada once more. Shahada is witnessing (not pillar). Faith (Eeman) is the so called fundamental pillar on which is built the rest of submission. A witness does not become a witness only when he is in the witness box. He is witness well before he delares according to what he has seen. In this case, what he has seen with the eyes of his heart and mind well before he comes to do the witnessing.

Everything in your 6 pillars of eeman is condensed in this one pillar of faith that makes you Muslim.

Quote:
Your problem with understanding the Quran is you are trapped within one rigid sense of a term. This is small kid thinking.
You have no idea what you are saying here. What I say here about the Qur'an is the result of many years of study of the Qur'an to understand it. You have a long way to go yet to understand the Qur'an, and may never do it until too late.

Quote:
If you want to be a better Muslim efficiently it will bode well for you to be familiar with the 6 pillars of eeman and other necessary pillars to advance oneself. One has to be an l-albābi [الْأَلْبَابِ].
To be a Muslim, one has to be a mu'min first and then enter the bab of submitting. For Islam, the Qur'an is the real Al-Albab.

Quote:
Btw, note the spelling of "Pillar" [supporting columns] not 'piller' which is a plunderer, e.g. Muhammad pillaging of caravans.
Thank you for the correction. It just goes to show you how much these pillars are real. Actually, these pillars are not real pillars. I can spell imagined pillars as pillers even if it means plundering of infidels who had plundered the contents of Muslim homes in Mecca. The same way, the justice laden verses are not evil laden verses as you have been writing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, that's what I thought. You are thinking about believe in secular sense.
What I am critically thinking is in the objective sense.
You are thinking in the subjective sense where what you asserted do not make sense with the whole of the Quran and reality.

Quote:
You are imagining way outside the limit. Allah (SWT) is absolutely clear in this verses that they had not believed at all as the eeman hadn't even entered their hearts. You are just making it up in your own imagination that Allah responded that they believed when they submitted to US. There is no mention in the verse that they had submitted to US. They didn't even have belief in "US", how could they have submitted to "US"?
It is obvious from 49:14 the wandering Arabs had not BELIEVED in the strict sense.

I did not state they believed [strictly] because the submitted. What I implied is they could and not could have believe [loose] sense when they submitted.
In 49:17 it was stated the wandering Arabs were Muslims, if they were Muslims it is logical they had submitted to Allah.

Quote:
You are making a big mistake. The Qur'an is not like any other book. It is unique and the only one of its type. You cannot understand it from outside as you can understand it from inside. It is spirit and light. You are not going to receive the spirit or let in the light unless you open the door of your mind to it. It is worded in such a unique way that only a sincere reader will understand it and benefit from it. A mere reading of it will drive the insincere miles away from it. It is not meant for spoon-feeding you. It clearly tells you to read and ponder over its ayyat (verses). Only the sincere ones will ponder over its ayyat and comprehend the message.

38:29 A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that endowed with understanding may be mindful.
It is only subjective Muslims who claimed the Quran is unique and that is for psychological and emotional reasons not in line with the truth of reality.
From the perspective of reality, history, anthropology, religion and philosophy, there is nothing special with the Quran. If fact it is a very 'kindergartenish' religious texts in terms of general spirituality.

From the perspective of reality, the point is while the Quran do help the psychological desperadoes, it has malignant consequences when SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired by its evil laden elements to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims around the world. The proof of this is so glaring.

To deal with this reality of terrible evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims we have to depend on realistic terms [strict and loose sense] and not rigid terms [no sense*].
* and it is non-sense there is only one absolute sense to any terms we are contending.

This is the reality of the 5.5 billion non-Muslims that must be addressed against the personal psychological salvational interests of the individual 1.5 Muslims.


Quote:
Everything about eeman is condensed in it. Shahada means "witnessing" of "faith". It is witnessing (submitting with tongue) of faith (eeman). Without this fundamental of Islam, nobody csn be either mu'min or muslim. It is the beginning the middle and the end of whole Islam. It is proclaimed many times every day in this world.
You are bullsh:tting your way through this because of confirmation bias and psychological desperations.
Babies born to Muslims parents are deemed to be Muslims. Do these babies has eeman at all?
Among the 1.5 billion of Muslims, there are many ways they had become Muslims and there is no certainty they must have eeman.
Many are forced to convert to be Muslims by various means and they don't have genuine eeman [faith, believe] and many only develop eeman when they later learn more about Islam.

Quote:
You misunderstand Shahada once more. Shahada is witnessing (not pillar). Faith (Eeman) is the so called fundamental pillar on which is built the rest of submission. A witness does not become a witness only when he is in the witness box. He is witness well before he delares according to what he has seen. In this case, what he has seen with the eyes of his heart and mind well before he comes to do the witnessing.
You are bullsh:tting again.
It is conventional understood and accepted by Muslims the declaration of the "Shahada" is one of the major pillar of Islam.

Quote:
Everything in your 6 pillars of eeman is condensed in this one pillar of faith that makes you Muslim.
To understand and realized the 6 pillars of eeman, one need time to develop a strong degree of eeman. There is no way one can realized the 6 pillars of eeman merely by declaring the shahada.

Quote:
You have no idea what you are saying here. What I say here about the Qur'an is the result of many years of study of the Qur'an to understand it. You have a long way to go yet to understand the Qur'an, and may never do it until too late.
It is a fact you insist there is an absolute rigid meaning to a term, e.g. eeman, there is only eeman without degree or grade.
The point is as a Muslim you have to be bias with a narrow mind otherwise your faith will not work with the inherent desperate psychology of a Muslim.
Besides, you have only read the 6-7 times which is not enough for you to open up your narrow mind. I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times, even then you will be aware of more perspectives but it is not likely to eliminate the underlying biasness.
In addition your supposed 'understanding' is way off the majority of Islamic scholars re the interpreting of the issue of 'Muslim versus Mu'min'.

Quote:
To be a Muslim, one has to be a mu'min first and then enter the bab of submitting. For Islam, the Qur'an is the real Al-Albab.
. This is totally wrong.
Suggest you read all the verses where there is this Al-Albabi.
These Al-Alabi [الْأَلْبَابِ] are the more advanced Muslims and they have already submitted and is in a permanent state of submission to Allah just like any other Muslims.
Therefrom submission is implied and there is no need to repeat the term "submission" as you are doing except in some exceptional situations. This is why the terms submission & submit are mentioned less than 15 times compared the 1100++ times that is mentioned for 'believe' [positive and negative].

Quote:
Thank you for the correction. It just goes to show you how much these pillars are real. Actually, these pillars are not real pillars. I can spell imagined pillars as pillers even if it means plundering of infidels who had plundered the contents of Muslim homes in Mecca. The same way, the justice laden verses are not evil laden verses as you have been writing.
Just accept you made a spelling mistake instead of deflecting your error with frivolous matters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-10-2016, 04:20 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I am critically thinking is in the objective sense.
You are thinking in the subjective sense where what you asserted do not make sense with the whole of the Quran and reality.-
What I write to do with the Qur'an and Islam makes sense with the whole of the Qur'an. Your so callef "objective sense" has nothing to do with the subject of the Qur'an.

Quote:
It is obvious from 49:14 the wandering Arabs had not BELIEVED in the strict sense.
They did not have eeman. Eeman is the precise term in the Qur'an for believing a message from Allah. It is never in any other sense but in only this precise sense.

Quote:
I did not state they believed [strictly] because the submitted. What I implied is they could and not could have believe [loose] sense when they submitted.
Just accept that they had no eeman; as is stated in the Qur'an!

Quote:
In 49:17 it was stated the wandering Arabs were Muslims, if they were Muslims it is logical they had submitted to Allah.
The verses 9:17 does not say that they were Muslims (Muslimeen in Arabic). You are just making it up that they were Muslims. It is already established from 49:14 that they were not mu'mineen as they did not have eeman. This fact alone stops them being Muslims as they had no faith in Allah. The second fact is that Allah does not say even once that they were "Muslims", either in 9:14 or in 49:17. So stop making it up!

Quote:
It is only subjective Muslims who claimed the Quran is unique and that is for psychological and emotional reasons not in line with the truth of reality.
All Muslims believe it to be unique.

Quote:
From the perspective of reality, history, anthropology, religion and philosophy, there is nothing special with the Quran. If fact it is a very 'kindergartenish' religious texts in terms of general spirituality.
It is unique because it is in the words of Allah. It is unique because it is guarded/protected by Allah and will never be changed even by one word ever. There are thousands of its memorizers/hafeez word by word in all main Muslim countries.

Quote:
From the perspective of reality, the point is while the Quran do help the psychological desperadoes, it has malignant consequences when SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired by its evil laden elements to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims around the world. The proof of this is so glaring.
The so-called evil laden elements are justice-laden elements. If an ignorant person csn't understand it, it is not the fault of Allah. Brain is for using it rather than for misusing it.

Quote:
To deal with this reality of terrible evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims we have to depend on realistic terms [strict and loose sense] and not rigid terms [no sense*].
* and it is non-sense there is only one absolute sense to any terms we are contending.
It is definitely nonsense to use your own loose terms in place of precise terms in the Qur'an when discussing th Qur'an. This is why you, and anyone else, even Muslim, who tries to corrupt the precise terms in the Qur'an with his own loose terms, will utterly fail. Why are the terrorists dying unnatural deaths one after the other? Because they are trying to corrupt verses of the Qur'an with their mouths other than what they were meant for. You can't give them your own meanings.

Quote:
This is the reality of the 5.5 billion non-Muslims that must be addressed against the personal psychological salvational interests of the individual 1.5 Muslims.
It would be far better for you to address the evil of selfish interests of the elite in this rat race than my personal religious interests that are not affecting anyone else.

Quote:
You are bullsh:tting your way through this because of confirmation bias and psychological desperations.
When you talk about me like that, you are talking in ignorance about me.

Quote:
Babies born to Muslims parents are deemed to be Muslims. Do these babies has eeman at all?
Yes. They were born because of the will of Allah. Just because they can't speak and say Shahada, it does not mean they have no eeman. It is only their parents or friends that might lead them to lose eeman later on. That's why they are called reverts rather than converts. And that's why no babies will go to hell.

Quote:
Among the 1.5 billion of Muslims, there are many ways they had become Muslims and there is no certainty they must have eeman.
Because you say so?

Quote:
Many are forced to convert to be Muslims by various means and they don't have genuine eeman [faith, believe] and many only develop eeman when they later learn more about Islam.
They are never Muslims if forced. They can be Muslims only after having eeman.

Quote:
You are bullsh:tting again.
It is conventional understood and accepted by Muslims the declaration of the "Shahada" is one of the major pillar of Islam.
That is only to make thick ones to understand the only way they can understand. In reality the "faith" ("eeman") is the first pillar. Shahada (witnessing) is meant to be the contents of the Shahada which is expressing of faith (all elements of faith included).

Quote:
To understand and realized the 6 pillars of eeman, one need time to develop a strong degree of eeman. There is no way one can realized the 6 pillars of eeman merely by declaring the shahada.
6 pillars of eeman are condensed in the 1st pillar of Islam. It is just that you do not have eeman and, therefore, you won't understand how they are condensed in contents of the Shahada.

Quote:
It is a fact you insist there is an absolute rigid meaning to a term, e.g. eeman, there is only eeman without degree or grade?
Word "eeman" is precise term in the Qur'an that has only one meaning. Within that meaning are elements to understand it. What you regard as degrees or grades are elements of the same precise term, "eeman". All elements (at least 6 elements) are in eeman and eeman is one element in Islam (5 main elements of).

Quote:
The point is as a Muslim you have to be bias with a narrow mind otherwise your faith will not work with the inherent desperate psychology of a Muslim.
Nonsense! You can't understand the Qur'an with narrow or closed mind.

I know how my faith works. You can imagine whatever you like. That's not my problem.

Quote:
Besides, you have only read the 6-7 times which is not enough for you to open up your narrow mind. I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times, even then you will be aware of more perspectives but it is not likely to eliminate the underlying biasness.
You must be speaking for yourself. You imagine my biasness in the light of your own biasness.

Quote:
In addition your supposed 'understanding' is way off the majority of Islamic scholars re the interpreting of the issue of 'Muslim versus Mu'min'.
That means nothing to me. Most of today's so-called scholars are misinterpreting the Qur'an. They do so because they are hadith thumpers only. They read the hadith books and leave the Qur'an on the top shelf for the dust to read it. And now one eye men are your scholars, albabis and imams teaching the blind ones.

Quote:
This is totally wrong.
Suggest you read all the verses where there is this Al-Albabi.
These Al-Alabi [الْأَلْبَابِ] are the more advanced Muslims and they have already submitted and is in a permanent state of submission to Allah just like any other Muslims.
I can tell that you are not one of the Al-Albabi. They did open the door (bab) of their mind to let the light in so that they could see clearly and understand the Qur'an. You regard them the same as any other Muslim (but not non-muslims). That's fine with me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What I write to do with the Qur'an and Islam makes sense with the whole of the Qur'an. Your so callef "objective sense" has nothing to do with the subject of the Qur'an.

They did not have eeman. Eeman is the precise term in the Qur'an for believing a message from Allah. It is never in any other sense but in only this precise sense.

Just accept that they had no eeman; as is stated in the Qur'an!

The verses 9:17 does not say that they were Muslims (Muslimeen in Arabic). You are just making it up that they were Muslims. It is already established from 49:14 that they were not mu'mineen as they did not have eeman. This fact alone stops them being Muslims as they had no faith in Allah. The second fact is that Allah does not say even once that they were "Muslims", either in 9:14 or in 49:17. So stop making it up!
Note this objective presentation and argument.

Note 49:17 indicated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims.

يَمُنُّونَ عَلَيْكَ أَنْ أَسْلَمُوا قُل لَّا تَمُنُّوا عَلَيَّ إِسْلَامَكُم بَلِ اللَّهُ يَمُنُّ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْ
هَدَاكُمْ لِلْإِيمَانِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

أَسْلَمُوا [س ل م] = accepted Islam

إِسْلَامَكُمْ [س ل م] = your Islam

and Allah has guided them to their eeman [loose].

Muslimeen is not mentioned, but it is implied from the following.
If they have accepted Islam, obviously they have submitted to Allah and are Muslims [loose].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 01:51 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,753,906 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this objective presentation and argument.

Note 49:17 indicated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims.

يَمُنُّونَ عَلَيْكَ أَنْ أَسْلَمُوا قُل لَّا تَمُنُّوا عَلَيَّ إِسْلَامَكُم بَلِ اللَّهُ يَمُنُّ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْ
هَدَاكُمْ لِلْإِيمَانِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

أَسْلَمُوا [س ل م] = accepted Islam

إِسْلَامَكُمْ [س ل م] = your Islam

and Allah has guided them to their eeman [loose].

Muslimeen is not mentioned, but it is implied from the following.
If they have accepted Islam, obviously they have submitted to Allah and are Muslims [loose].
Of course the wondering Arabs were already Muslim and submitted to Allah (war lords used religion to force people to submit or fight or pay or suffer), and to accept Muhammad is to accept Islam, it is Him who is vital to the factionist religion, not Allah, allah is not as vital to a factionist Islam as Muhammad.

The Arab polytheism was a syncretic kind, and they were already exposed to Jews and Christians that called their God "Allah." and Muhammad's father who was from a Polytheist tribe and beholden of the Polytheistic (sadly accepting of jealous monotheists such as Jews and Christians) religion of the land, he already was named "servant of Allah."

The word "submit(er)" is indeed vague and interpretable because it is a word created to define vague and interpretable things.

Muhammad was said to believe that "the real Moses" and "the real Jesus" and "real Jesus followers" and "real Jews" were already Muslims and would thus convert to His religion which was their's and provable if they were "in-touch" with Allah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The so-called evil laden elements are justice-laden elements. If an ignorant person csn't understand it, it is not the fault of Allah. Brain is for using it rather than for misusing it.
Let me explain what is meant by evil laden elements.
I have defined what is 'evil' many times.
Words like 'kill' 'fight' 'violence' 'rape' lie, steal, and the likes are evil related words.
Therefore such words are evil-laden elements.
When a verse contains evil laden elements it is likely [not all the time] to lead to evil, i.e. it has potential evil.
What is worse is these evil laden elements in the Quran are presented in such a way that they manifest DUCK-RABBIT, two truths scenarios.

If the Quran is claimed by Muslims to be authored by Allah then it is Allah's fault for using such evil laden elements that triggered SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils.

The truth is the Quran was never authored by a supposedly all powerful God but the Quran was authored and compiled by an unwise man or a group of unwise people.
Wiser people like the Buddhists who compiled their sutras are wise enough not to include any leading evil laden verses which would inspire SOME evil prone Buddhist to commit violence in the name of Buddhism or the Buddha.

Quote:
It is definitely nonsense to use your own loose terms in place of precise terms in the Qur'an when discussing th Qur'an. This is why you, and anyone else, even Muslim, who tries to corrupt the precise terms in the Qur'an with his own loose terms, will utterly fail. Why are the terrorists dying unnatural deaths one after the other? Because they are trying to corrupt verses of the Qur'an with their mouths other than what they were meant for. You can't give them your own meanings.
You don't seem to understand the difference between precise and strict/loose concept.

Example:
If we say that man is a gentleman, then that is precise because a gentleman is a man.
It would not precise to say that woman is a gentleman.

However the term "gentleman" can be used in the strict or loose sense and in various ways.

That is the difference between being precise and strict/loose sense.

The Quran is precise in using believer-in-general for anyone who has submitted to Allah, but in 49:14 the Quran differentiated a believer-in-general from a believer-in-strict-sense.


Quote:
Yes. They were born because of the will of Allah. Just because they can't speak and say Shahada, it does not mean they have no eeman. It is only their parents or friends that might lead them to lose eeman later on. That's why they are called reverts rather than converts. And that's why no babies will go to hell.
You equated eeman = believe, but to me there are the pillars of eeman.
Based on your understanding and application of 'believe', there is no way a baby can believe because a baby has not activated his faculty of 'believe' in his brain yet.
A baby is only a Muslim by virtue of his/her parents are Muslims not because the baby had believed the moment s/she is born or in the womb.
You are twisting facts in desperations.

Quote:
They are never Muslims if forced. They can be Muslims only after having eeman.
If one is forced [strict] to say the Shahada with a gun to the head, it is quite obvious they are not genuine Muslims.
However there are many situations where people are forced in subtle ways to declare the shahada. For example if a man or woman may declare to Shahada because of love for the other spouse. There are many other circumstance where one is 'forced' to declare the shahada to be a Muslim and later become a more serious Muslim as they cultivated their islam [5 pillars], 6 pillars of eeman.

Quote:
That is only to make thick ones to understand the only way they can understand. In reality the "faith" ("eeman") is the first pillar. Shahada (witnessing) is meant to be the contents of the Shahada which is expressing of faith (all elements of faith included).
The Shahada [not in the Quran] is just a name to a set of procedures of declaration and submission.
In the context of the whole Quran, the starting point is a person must accept Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger. A person may believe Allah is the only God [in essence] when he was a Jew or Christian but he will not be a Muslim [at present] until he has accepted Muhammad as a messenger of Allah.
Therefore this two prerequisites, i.e.
1. Allah is the only God
2. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
is most critical to be a Muslim [loose].

The combination of Allah and Muhammad implied the existence of Quran and its 6,236 verses.

It is from the 6,236 verses of the Quran [only] that enable a Muslim [new and beginner] to cultivate higher and stronger 'Islam' 'Eeman' 'Mushin' Muttagin, Tagwa, etc.
Whatever believe or eeman if any before submission is in the loose or weak sense.

That is the objective presentation.
Get it?

Quote:
6 pillars of eeman are condensed in the 1st pillar of Islam. It is just that you do not have eeman and, therefore, you won't understand how they are condensed in contents of the Shahada.
You are not talking sense at all.

Quote:
Word "eeman" is precise term in the Qur'an that has only one meaning. Within that meaning are elements to understand it. What you regard as degrees or grades are elements of the same precise term, "eeman". All elements (at least 6 elements) are in eeman and eeman is one element in Islam (5 main elements of).
If you say some believe in something, that is precise, BUT "believe" has the strict and loose sense.

Quote:
That means nothing to me. Most of today's so-called scholars are misinterpreting the Qur'an. They do so because they are hadith thumpers only. They read the hadith books and leave the Qur'an on the top shelf for the dust to read it. And now one eye men are your scholars, albabis and imams teaching the blind ones.
I don't agree with the Islamic scholars in many things because by default as a believer they must be bias. I also do not agree the Ahadith has any divine authority at all.
However in the case of the issue of 'Muslim versus mu'min" in the context of 49:14 & 17 I agree with them because it is very logical taking into account the strict and loose sense of 'believe.'

Quote:
I can tell that you are not one of the Al-Albabi. They did open the door (bab) of their mind to let the light in so that they could see clearly and understand the Qur'an. You regard them the same as any other Muslim (but not non-muslims). That's fine with me.
I don't want to be associated with Al-Albabi because I am a non-Muslim. However I apply serious critical thinking and deep understanding to any topic I deal with. While I understand I do not necessary agree with Islamic doctrines as a personal belief.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 04:07 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Let me explain what is meant by evil laden elements.
I have defined what is 'evil' many times.
Words like 'kill' 'fight' 'violence' 'rape' lie, steal, and the likes are evil related words.
Therefore such words are evil-laden elements.
You are spreading evil here by such words that are evil laden. How about that?

Quote:
When a verse contains evil laden elements it is likely [not all the time] to lead to evil, i.e. it has potential evil.
What is worse is these evil laden elements in the Quran are presented in such a way that they manifest DUCK-RABBIT, two truths scenarios.
Then why don't be fair and say that these are also justice laden elements?

The reality is that there are no two truths that oppose each other.The two truths can be so only if the both are truths.

Quote:
If the Quran is claimed by Muslims to be authored by Allah then it is Allah's fault for using such evil laden elements that triggered SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils.
Acually, you are ignoring the other truth either deliberately or in ignorance.

Quote:
The truth is the Quran was never authored by a supposedly all powerful God but the Quran was authored and compiled by an unwise man or a group of unwise people.
Very unwise to believe (loose) so!

Quote:
Wiser people like the Buddhists who compiled their sutras are wise enough not to include any leading evil laden verses which would inspire SOME evil prone Buddhist to commit violence in the name of Buddhism or the Buddha.
I think all Muslims would live peaceful life in China or Burma. Buddhist there are very peacefil people.

Quote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between precise and strict/loose concept.

Example:
If we say that man is a gentleman, then that is precise because a gentleman is a man.
It would not precise to say that woman is a gentleman.
That's why the Qur'an never does anything like that. It never has a loose term but only precise terms.

Quote:
However the term "gentleman" can be used in the strict or loose sense and in various ways.
How do you say gentleman and gentleman in loose and strict sense respectively?

Quote:
That is the difference between being precise and strict/loose sense.
For example....??

Quote:
The Quran is precise in using believer-in-general for anyone who has submitted to Allah, but in 49:14 the Quran differentiated a believer-in-general from a believer-in-strict-sense.
The Qur'an says in the 49:14 that they were NOT believing. Where did you get the idea that they were believers of any kind whether loose, tight, strict or in general sense acording to the Qur'an?

Quote:
You equated eeman = believe, but to me there are the pillars of eeman.
I have always equated eeman to faith, and "having eeman" to having faith. It is you who misunderstand me.

Quote:
Based on your understanding and application of 'believe', there is no way a baby can believe because a baby has not activated his faculty of 'believe' in his brain yet.
He obeyed God and came to existence. His ruh is from God. Combine the two and the sum total is the baby has eeman when born. You can't understand his eeman. You can understand his eeman only if you can understand his ruh (spirit).

Quote:
A baby is only a Muslim by virtue of his/her parents are Muslims not because the baby had believed the moment s/she is born or in the womb.
You are twisting facts in desperations.
How do you pass this judgment when you do not even understand eeman except as some pillars? Just because a baby does not bring 6 pillars with him, does not mean that he does not come with eeman.

Quote:
If one is forced [strict] to say the Shahada with a gun to the head, it is quite obvious they are not genuine Muslims.
However there are many situations where people are forced in subtle ways to declare the shahada. For example if a man or woman may declare to Shahada because of love for the other spouse. There are many other circumstance where one is 'forced' to declare the shahada to be a Muslim and later become a more serious Muslim as they cultivated their islam [5 pillars], 6 pillars of eeman.
Actually, I will call him gardener if he cultivated my garden.

Quote:
The Shahada [not in the Quran] is just a name to a set of procedures of declaration and submission.
Both sections of the Shahada are in the Qur'an.

Quote:
In the context of the whole Quran, the starting point is a person must accept Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger.
Isn't this then in the Qur'an?

Quote:
A person may believe Allah is the only God [in essence] when he was a Jew or Christian but he will not be a Muslim [at present] until he has accepted Muhammad as a messenger of Allah.
Therefore this two prerequisites, i.e.
1. Allah is the only God
2. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
is most critical to be a Muslim [loose].
I am sure you are now coming to understand my point that believing is prerequsite to submitting to Allah.

Quote:
The combination of Allah and Muhammad implied the existence of Quran and its 6,236 verses.
Believing in combination of all three is having eeman but the most fundamental element in the three is Allah. The other two depend on Allah. Therefore it is having eeman about Allah is the first pillar of eeman. Believing Allah is central to all other pillars. The rest of pillars are born from his One PILLAR.

Quote:
It is from the 6,236 verses of the Quran [only] that enable a Muslim [new and beginner] to cultivate higher and stronger 'Islam' 'Eeman' 'Mushin' Muttagin, Tagwa, etc.
You can't do it if you believe only the Qur'anic revelation is from Allah. You will not achieve all 6 pillars if you believe only the Qur'an is from Allah. The same way, rejecting the Qur'anic revelation from Allah makes one's eeman incomplete.

Quote:
Whatever believe or eeman if any before submission is in the loose or weak sense.

That is the objective presentation.
Get it?
One can't submit to Allah without having eeman about Allah first.

Quote:
If you say some believe in something, that is precise, BUT "believe" has the strict and loose sense.
I can present it better than your waffling about "believe". English "believe" is loose secular term. The Qur'anic term "eeman" is precise term. The Qur'anic believer (mu'min) is precise term for someone who has eeman.

Quote:
I don't agree with the Islamic scholars in many things because by default as a believer they must be bias. I also do not agree the Ahadith has any divine authority at all.
However in the case of the issue of 'Muslim versus mu'min" in the context of 49:14 & 17 I agree with them because it is very logical taking into account the strict and loose sense of 'believe.'
Well if you believe (loose secular term) the scholars on 49:14 & 17, as well as on "one can be Muslim without being mu'min" first then a Muslim does not have to say or believe in Shahada or 6 pillars of eeman. Just submit to my grandson (his name is Muhammad) and one is a Muslim just like those wandering Arabs were believed to be Muslims by the scholars.

Quote:
I don't want to be associated with Al-Albabi because I am a non-Muslim. However I apply serious critical thinking and deep understanding to any topic I deal with. While I understand I do not necessary agree with Islamic doctrines as a personal belief.
Al-albab are those with intellect/with intelligence/who understand. Do you have no intellect?.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top