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Old 03-28-2016, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The Stages of Being a 'Muslim' from the following book;
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...le/en_Iman.pdf

A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A Muímin is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
So, every complete Muímin must first be a Muslim. However, not every Muslim is necessarily a Muímin.

Yet another level that goes beyond ĎMuslimí and ĎMuíminí is ĎMuhsiní - one characterized by Ihsaan. Ihsaan encompasses both, Islam and Eeman, when it is mentioned alone. However, when Ihsaan is mentioned along with Islam and Eeman, it has a distinct meaning like in the famous Hadeeth of Jibraeel, when the Prophet described it in the following words, ďIt is that you worship Allah as if you see Him, even though you do not see Him.Ē

Ibn Rajab said, ďThis indicates that one should worship Allah in this manner, which is keeping in mind that He is close, and that is He is before you as if you could see Him. This leads one to fear Him, venerate Him and show respect. It also leads one to be sincere in worship and strive hard to do it well and make it perfect and complete.Ē [Jami al-Uloom al-Hukam (1/35)]

So, every Muhsin must meet all the conditions of a Muslim and a Muímin; hence, every Muhsin is a Muslim and Muímin. However, not every Muslim and Muímin is a Muhsin. Muhsin is a stage higher than Muslim and Muímin.


Agree with the above?
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:24 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Stages of Being a 'Muslim' from the following book;
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...le/en_Iman.pdf

A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A Mu’min is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
So, every complete Mu’min must first be a Muslim. However, not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu’min.

Yet another level that goes beyond ‘Muslim’ and ‘Mu’min’ is ‘Muhsin’ - one characterized by Ihsaan. Ihsaan encompasses both, Islam and Eeman, when it is mentioned alone. However, when Ihsaan is mentioned along with Islam and Eeman, it has a distinct meaning like in the famous Hadeeth of Jibraeel, when the Prophet described it in the following words, “It is that you worship Allah as if you see Him, even though you do not see Him.”

Ibn Rajab said, “This indicates that one should worship Allah in this manner, which is keeping in mind that He is close, and that is He is before you as if you could see Him. This leads one to fear Him, venerate Him and show respect. It also leads one to be sincere in worship and strive hard to do it well and make it perfect and complete.” [Jami al-Uloom al-Hukam (1/35)]

So, every Muhsin must meet all the conditions of a Muslim and a Mu’min; hence, every Muhsin is a Muslim and Mu’min. However, not every Muslim and Mu’min is a Muhsin. Muhsin is a stage higher than Muslim and Mu’min.


Agree with the above?
Not quite!

Please note that even many Muslims are not aware of the difference between Momin (Mu'min) and Muslim.

In short, a Momin is someone who has "eeman". He believes in Allah, His messengers (not just messenger Muhammad), His books (revelations), prophets, and the last day and the day of judgment. Without this belief one can't be regarded as Momin. Some Muslims have wrong impression that a Momin is someone who is a perfect Muslim.

A Muslim is someone who is a Momin and he obeys the commands from Allah.

A Muslim can't be a Muslim without being a Momin first. Belief is reflected in practice.

A mohsin (Muhsin) is generally someone with attribute of doing good (ehsan) to other people. This simply means a good human being. Plural of Mohsin is Mohsineen (as in the verse 2:58, 2:195 and many more verses in the Qur'an). People who really understand the Qur'an will believe first, obey the commands second (become Muslims) and keep doing good to others as commanded. Therefore being a Mohsin is part of being a Muslim just as being Momin is part of being a Muslim. The two actions of "believing" and "doing ehsan" are required of a Muslim.

Last edited by Khalif; 03-28-2016 at 03:34 AM..
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not quite!

Please note that even many Muslims are not aware of the difference between Momin (Mu'min) and Muslim.

In short, a Momin is someone who has "eeman". He believes in Allah, His messengers (not just messenger Muhammad), His books (revelations), prophets, and the last day and the day of judgment. Without this belief one can't be regarded as Momin. Some Muslims have wrong impression that a Momin is someone who is a perfect Muslim.

A Muslim is someone who is a Momin and he obeys the commands from Allah.

A Muslim can't be a Muslim without being a Momin first. Belief is reflected in practice.

A mohsin (Muhsin) is generally someone with attribute of doing good (ehsan) to other people. This simply means a good human being. Plural of Mohsin is Mohsineen (as in the verse 2:58, 2:195 and many more verses in the Qur'an). People who really understand the Qur'an will believe first, obey the commands second (become Muslims) and keep doing good to others as commanded. Thereore being a Mohsin is part of being a Muslim just as being Momin is part of being a Muslim. The two actions of "believing" and "doing ehsan" are required of a Muslim.
Your view, i.e.
"A Muslim can't be a Muslim without being a Momin first."
is different from the OP.

The OP stated the degree and level of being a 'Muslim' [loose sense] are as follows'

Level 1. Muslim - one who has submitted with incomplete eeman.
Level 2. Mu'min - a Muslim with complete eeman
Level 3. Mushin - A Mu'min with Ishaan.

I view the OP's definitions and grading make more sense than your views.
It is something like the progress of student from

1. Grade Schools
2. College -Graduate
3. Post Graduate

In all the three levels, the person is a student who must progress by passing the necessary standards of each stage.

Your presentation don't make sense.

Let see what are the views of others.
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Old 03-28-2016, 04:11 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your view, i.e.
"A Muslim can't be a Muslim without being a Momin first."
is different from the OP.

The OP stated the degree and level of being a 'Muslim' [loose sense] are as follows'

Level 1. Muslim - one who has submitted with incomplete eeman.
Level 2. Mu'min - a Muslim with complete eeman
Level 3. Mushin - A Mu'min with Ishaan.
There are 1.5 Muslims (Muslimeen) in the world. None are ever called by you as Momineen or Muhsineen. Why? It's because th definitions Momineen and Muhsineen are part of the definition Muslimeen.

I can seperate these definiions but you can't even if you read the Qur'an another 50 times.

Quote:
I view the OP's definitions and grading make more sense than your views.
It is something like the progress of student from

1. Grade Schools
2. College -Graduate
3. Post Graduate

In all the three levels, the person is a student who must progress by passing the necessary standards of each stage.

Your presentation don't make sense.

Let see what are the views of others.
You will, inshaAllah, learn that my presentation makes sense. Being a Momin and Mohsin is within being a Muslim. This is why I regard those who do not believe (have no eeman) and do not do good to others (are not Mohsineen) as Muslimeen.

Now you will be learning your duck can't be rabbit. The Qur'an makes things clear for those who have brains to think and hearts to understand.
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Old 03-28-2016, 04:29 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muímin is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
Mu'min, as the definition describes, has only one obligation, have "eeman". In the Qur'an, they are addressed as "those with eeman". "O you who believe" means "O you who have eeman". After being addressed so, they are then told to do other things such as obey Allah and do good to others. Obeying Allah and doing good to others is what makes them Muslims.

The definition "Muhsin" reflects doing good.

The definition "Muslim" is culmination of the above two definitions and reflects complete submission both in belief and in action.
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Old 03-28-2016, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are 1.5 Muslims (Muslimeen) in the world. None are ever called by you as Momineen or Muhsineen. Why? It's because th definitions Momineen and Muhsineen are part of the definition Muslimeen.
I can seperate these definiions but you can't even if you read the Qur'an another 50 times.
It is true because I do not read Arabic, thus I don't pick up the terms 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n in the Quran.
However my reading of the Quran 50 times and in depth understanding of spirituality, human nature and intelligence made me aware that a spiritual/religious person must progress in stages and phases as in other practice of spirituality/religion.
This is why I introduced the thread 'Degrees of Muslim-ness" to discuss the various ranks.
Degree of Muslim_ness
You are the one who cannot associate this concept to the ranking of 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n.

Note I have came across the concepts 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n in some articles but did not delve into them in depth but I am very aware of the concepts.

Quote:
You will, inshaAllah, learn that my presentation makes sense. Being a Momin and Mohsin is within being a Muslim. This is why I regard those who do not believe (have no eeman) and do not do good to others (are not Mohsineen) as Muslimeen.
I am certain your presentation do not make rational and realistic sense.
Here is a more realistic presentation of the concept of Muslim, 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n.

1. Basic = Muslim [submission -90%, Eeman -10% Inhsaan -5%]
2. Intermediate - Mu'min [Muslim -Submission 95% Eeman-99% -Inhsaan -20%]
3. Advance -Mushin [Muslim + Mu'min -Submission -99% Eeman 99 Inhsaan - 99%]

I know a Mu'min and Mushin are basically and fundamentally a Muslim as in the example of a grade school pupil, a Graduate and a PhD are all basically students.
It is the same with all sorts and types of people, they are all basically human being with a generic DNA core.

One of the underlying philosophical principle to support the above is 'intensity' i.e. there are degrees in everything. Even a human male has some degrees of femaleness.

The percentages I used are estimated to merely show their relativeness.

Quote:
Now you will be learning your duck can't be rabbit. The Qur'an makes things clear for those who have brains to think and hearts to understand.
In terms of the knowledge base of the whole of humanity, the Quran is at the kindergarten level with a lot of Duck-Rabbit scenario.
To master the Duck-Rabbit illusion one need a high standard of Philosophical knowledge and competence. As far as spiritual and religion is concern it is unfortunate the Quran has straight-jacketed you within the kindergarten level. You have to otherwise your faith [belief without reasons or proofs] will not work for you.

Note I am fully aware of the range of knowledge of different people from the philosophical perspective.
Faith [beliefs without proofs nor reason] has the most lowest form of credibility.
Knowledge at the highest level is something like Plato's JTB, i.e. Justified True Belief.
Justified True Belief is beliefs that are solidly justified and objective as opposed to the low class 'faith' which is belief without proofs nor reason thus is subjective and not credible.

Because faith is of such low class and subjective, it should be confined to one private and personal use and cannot be shared-knowledge on an objective basis.

One point:
Thus in 49:14 the wandering Arabs claimed to BELIEVE, i.e. they claimed to be Mu'min.
Allah informed them [indirectly] they are only at the 'Muslim' stage, i.e. merely submitted and do not has sufficient Eeman to qualify to be called Mu'min yet.
To qualify to be "Mu'min" i.e. BELIEVE proper, they need to have sufficient Eeman, i.e. 60-99%.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:39 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is true because I do not read Arabic, thus I don't pick up the terms 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n in the Quran.
However my reading of the Quran 50 times and in depth understanding of spirituality, human nature and intelligence made me aware that a spiritual/religious person must progress in stages and phases as in other practice of spirituality/religion.
This is why I introduced the thread 'Degrees of Muslim-ness" to discuss the various ranks.
Degree of Muslim_ness
You are the one who cannot associate this concept to the ranking of 'Mu'min' and 'Mushi'n.
All you need to understand is that a Muslim is someone who is Mu'min, Mu'hsin (not Mushi'n) as well as Muslim.

You can believe (be a Mu'min) but are not a Muslim unless you obey Allah by obeying His commands.
You can do good to others (be a Mu'hsin) but if you do not be a Mu'min you are not a Muslim.
As a Muslim, you have to be a Mu'min, be Mu'hsin, and obey Allah by obeying His commands.

And that's about it. Quite simple really!
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
All you need to understand is that a Muslim is someone who is Mu'min, Mu'hsin (not Mushi'n) as well as Muslim.
As I had explained this is basic knowledge.

Quote:
You can believe (be a Mu'min) but are not a Muslim unless you obey Allah by obeying His commands.
You can do good to others (be a Mu'hsin) but if you do not be a Mu'min you are not a Muslim.
As a Muslim, you have to be a Mu'min, be Mu'hsin, and obey Allah by obeying His commands.

And that's about it. Quite simple really!
Simple answers from being 'simple' minded.

A Muslim is one who believe [loose term] and entered into a covenant with Allah via submission and declaring the Shahada.
A believe [loose term] and insufficient eeman will not make a Muslim a Mu'min.

For a Muslim to reach the stage of a Mu'min, s/he must BELIEVE [proper] and do all the necessary to achieve eeman at the highest stage.

For a Muslim to reach the highest stage of being a Mu'shin, that Muslim must first be a Mu'min and then cultivate [BELIEVE -proper] sufficient Inhsaan to be a Mu'shin.

Suggest you read the book I linked above to understand [not necessary agree] what he is trying to explain in details.
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Old 03-29-2016, 07:27 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had explained this is basic knowledge.

Simple answers from being 'simple' minded.
I don't think you even tried to understand it.

Quote:
A Muslim is one who believe [loose term] and entered into a covenant with Allah via submission and declaring the Shahada.
A believe [loose term] and insufficient eeman will not make a Muslim a Mu'min.

For a Muslim to reach the stage of a Mu'min, s/he must BELIEVE [proper] and do all the necessary to achieve eeman at the highest stage.

For a Muslim to reach the highest stage of being a Mu'shin, that Muslim must first be a Mu'min and then cultivate [BELIEVE -proper] sufficient Inhsaan to be a Mu'shin.

Suggest you read the book I linked above to understand [not necessary agree] what he is trying to explain in details.
He has got one convert (you) to believe him.

What this guy does not understand is that a Muslim is collectively a Mu'min, a Mu'hsin and a Muslim. He is probably from the Indian subcontinent where they do create their own definitions and meanings according to what they have learnt from their clerics.

And you are stuck in your own first impression and can't learn anymore.
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Old 03-29-2016, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't think you even tried to understand it.
I told you it is basic knowledge [1 +1 = 2] so it is easy to understand. Somehow you are having problem with such basis knowledge.

Quote:
He has got one convert (you) to believe him.
What this guy does not understand is that a Muslim is collectively a Mu'min, a Mu'hsin and a Muslim. He is probably from the Indian subcontinent where they do create their own definitions and meanings according to what they have learnt from their clerics.

And you are stuck in your own first impression and can't learn anymore.
Note I have since read more than 20 articles on the subject from various Islamic scholars and they have the same core views as the above author.

Your "a Muslim is collectively a Mu'min, a Mu'hsin and a Muslim" is vague, not precise and do not make sense.
Rather it should be a Muslim, Mu'min, and a Mu'hsin are collectively a 'Muslim' in the loose sense. In the specific sense we have to specify their specific qualities.

A Muslim who is specifically a 'Muslim' is one who has submitted [proper sense] and strive with the 5 pillars of Islam. Note "submitted" is defaulted and implied 'submitted to Allah.' This is what 49:14's 'submitted' implied as well, i.e. submitted [aslama] to Allah and not to Muhammad.

A Muslim who has attained 'Mumin' status conform with its specific qualities;
1. Has strong eeman
2. Qualities as in Chapter 23:1-11
3.
4.
5.
6.

There are some other specific qualities of a Mu'min which I have read in the various articles but I don't have them on hand at present.

After reading the Quran >50 times and with a in depth knowledge of religions and spirituality in general, I can easily understand what is a mu'min.
Though I understand what is a mu'min in the Islamic perspective, the concept of mu'min and mushin is amateurish when compared to the spiritual development of the individual in other religions [especially the Eastern religions].
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