U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-28-2016, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,535 posts, read 9,420,509 times
Reputation: 6702

Advertisements

An Ahmadinejad shopkeeper was murdered in Glasgow, Scotland by another Muslim who regarded him as an apostate.

After Asad Shah's 'religiously prejudiced' death, we know inter-Muslim hatred is a problem in Britain | Voices | The Independent
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-28-2016, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
I agree for many reasons.

Going just by some Islamic ones.

1. we are not to harm anyone simply because they are an apostate.

2. We can not consider an Ahamadiyyat an apostate as to be an apostate one has to first be a Muslim. Ahmadiyyah are not considered Muslims because they follow a man that came after Muhammad(saws). They believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was both the Messiah and the Mahdi. This goes against Islamic beliefs.

3. As Muslims we are obligated to follow the laws of the land we are in. He committed murder under UK laws and he should face the full consequences of his criminal act.

4. A Muslim is to use physical force only when it is the only means to stop a physical attack and then only to the extent needed to stop the aggression
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2016, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I agree for many reasons.

Going just by some Islamic ones.

1. we are not to harm anyone simply because they are an apostate.

2. We can not consider an Ahamadiyyat an apostate as to be an apostate one has to first be a Muslim. Ahmadiyyah are not considered Muslims because they follow a man that came after Muhammad(saws). They believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was both the Messiah and the Mahdi. This goes against Islamic beliefs.

3. As Muslims we are obligated to follow the laws of the land we are in. He committed murder under UK laws and he should face the full consequences of his criminal act.

4. A Muslim is to use physical force only when it is the only means to stop a physical attack and then only to the extent needed to stop the aggression
I don't agree with your views because they do not represent what is real and the facts.
First is you don't have the right to represent the "We" i.e., all Muslims.

1. The fact is there are 1.5 billion Muslims.
20% of all Muslims [as with all human beings] are born to have a natural tendency to commit evil.

2. There is a significant amount of evil laden element in the Quran directed negatively against disbelievers and apostate, and to kill them is justified and necessary.

3. The Ahmadiyahs are technically Muslims because they affirmed the Shahada.

4. They believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was both the Messiah and the Mahdi as prophesized in the Islamic texts. This is controversial and depending on perspective, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad could be right, but the majority of Muslims who believed Muhammad is the final messenger do not agree. Whether who is right or wrong, nobody really knows, only Allah knows.

5. While the 80% of moderate who do not agree with the Ahamadiyahs will merely disagreed and complain, SOME Muslims who are evil prone will rely on the evil laden elements in the Quran to kill the Ahmadiyahs because they understand from the Quran they are justified to kill as sanction by Allah.

6. So the effective root cause of why the Ahmadiyahs are killed is because of the evil laden elements in the Quran influencing 20% of Muslims who are evil prone.

7. As a check and control, there are many sects and cults who claimed to be Christians and thus very offensive to the majority of Christians but the evil prone Christians generally do not seek out to kill those who in accordance to their beliefs are considered as 'deviants.'

8. Why it is only the followers of one Religion, i.e. Islam that are influenced and inspired to kill who they considered are apostate or frauds. The inference is - the existence of evil elements that trigger them to kill apostate and frauds.

To be truthful and realistic, you should acknowledge the above facts, i.e.
1. 20% of all Muslims [as will all humans] has the natural tendency to commit evil.
2. The Quran contain evil elements.
3. It is the evil elements in the Quran that triggered the naturally evil Muslims to kill the Ahamadiyahs in this case.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2016, 01:07 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree with your views because they do not represent what is real and the facts.
First is you don't have the right to represent the "We" i.e., all Muslims.

1. The fact is there are 1.5 billion Muslims.
20% of all Muslims [as with all human beings] are born to have a natural tendency to commit evil.
And you have no right to represent any evil prone as you have been doing in post after post. Are you one of them?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2016, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And you have no right to represent any evil prone as you have been doing in post after post. Are you one of them?
Your rational thinking seem to be going bonkers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2016, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree with your views because they do not represent what is real and the facts.
First is you don't have the right to represent the "We" i.e., all Muslims.

1. The fact is there are 1.5 billion Muslims.
20% of all Muslims [as with all human beings] are born to have a natural tendency to commit evil.

2. There is a significant amount of evil laden element in the Quran directed negatively against disbelievers and apostate, and to kill them is justified and necessary.

3. The Ahmadiyahs are technically Muslims because they affirmed the Shahada.

4. They believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was both the Messiah and the Mahdi as prophesized in the Islamic texts. This is controversial and depending on perspective, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad could be right, but the majority of Muslims who believed Muhammad is the final messenger do not agree. Whether who is right or wrong, nobody really knows, only Allah knows.

5. While the 80% of moderate who do not agree with the Ahamadiyahs will merely disagreed and complain, SOME Muslims who are evil prone will rely on the evil laden elements in the Quran to kill the Ahmadiyahs because they understand from the Quran they are justified to kill as sanction by Allah.

6. So the effective root cause of why the Ahmadiyahs are killed is because of the evil laden elements in the Quran influencing 20% of Muslims who are evil prone.

7. As a check and control, there are many sects and cults who claimed to be Christians and thus very offensive to the majority of Christians but the evil prone Christians generally do not seek out to kill those who in accordance to their beliefs are considered as 'deviants.'

8. Why it is only the followers of one Religion, i.e. Islam that are influenced and inspired to kill who they considered are apostate or frauds. The inference is - the existence of evil elements that trigger them to kill apostate and frauds.

To be truthful and realistic, you should acknowledge the above facts, i.e.
1. 20% of all Muslims [as will all humans] has the natural tendency to commit evil.
2. The Quran contain evil elements.
3. It is the evil elements in the Quran that triggered the naturally evil Muslims to kill the Ahamadiyahs in this case.
Then your burden becomes one of showing reason why there is so much diversity in the frequency of violence among various groups of violence. To the point where it is almost exclusive to People who adhere to wahhabi and is virtually non-existent among Sufi or even some non-Muslim religions that believe Muhammad (saws) is a Holy Prophet and the Qur'an is the Word of God such as Bahai'i, Yazidi, Druze, Sikh (exception Sikh of Punjab heritage have a high incidence of violence as do Hindus, Muslims and Christians of Punjab heritage.)

The point being that if your hypothesis is correct the incidence of violence should be very similar among equal size populations of Muslims.That does not hold true. But it can be shown that the highest rates of violence among Muslims occurs among Wahhabi.

Some predominately Wahhabi groups

ISIS
Boko Haram
al-Qaida
Taliban
(By Taliban and al-Qaida I mean the groups the media labels as Taliban and al-Qaida)
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2016, 04:34 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,504,263 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I agree for many reasons.

Going just by some Islamic ones.

1. we are not to harm anyone simply because they are an apostate.

2. We can not consider an Ahamadiyyat an apostate as to be an apostate one has to first be a Muslim. Ahmadiyyah are not considered Muslims because they follow a man that came after Muhammad(saws). They believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was both the Messiah and the Mahdi. This goes against Islamic beliefs.

3. As Muslims we are obligated to follow the laws of the land we are in. He committed murder under UK laws and he should face the full consequences of his criminal act.

4. A Muslim is to use physical force only when it is the only means to stop a physical attack and then only to the extent needed to stop the aggression
And there's the rub, will the true Muslims please speak up. It's pretty clear that all these schisms are a huge part of the problem. The Shia are't real Muslims, Wahhabism isn't real Islam, so-called IS aren't real Muslims ... the problem is that all claim to be so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2016, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
And there's the rub, will the true Muslims please speak up. It's pretty clear that all these schisms are a huge part of the problem. The Shia are't real Muslims, Wahhabism isn't real Islam, so-called IS aren't real Muslims ... the problem is that all claim to be so.

As there is no joining Islam or any form of organization called Islam and we have no hierarchy of clergy there is no way any person can prove he is a Muslim That is only known to God(saws) all people who say they are Muslims are accepted as Muslims. But we all have the right to state why we do not believe some one is not performing Islam the way we believe it should be done.

Islam is a verb and every person who performs Islam is a Muslim. It is true there are many different opinions as to how Islam should be performed.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2016, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As there is no joining Islam or any form of organization called Islam and we have no hierarchy of clergy there is no way any person can prove he is a Muslim That is only known to God(saws) all people who say they are Muslims are accepted as Muslims. But we all have the right to state why we do not believe some one is not performing Islam the way we believe it should be done.

Islam is a verb and every person who performs Islam is a Muslim. It is true there are many different opinions as to how Islam should be performed.
The above is a very superficial view of Islam.
To be more specific and precise, Islam can be presented in the following contexts and perspectives;

1. Islam is supported by its core, i.e. the Quran.
2. Islam in this sense is a noun, i.e. a religion.
3. The adherents of Islam are Muslims.

4. A Muslim in a specific sense is one who has submitted and has to comply with the 5 pillars of Islam.
This is basic Islam, i.e. al-Islam and it is defined by the 5 pillars of Islam. A Muslim of 'Islam' do not perform 'Islam,' what s/he need to do is to perform the 5 pillars of Islam to the best of his ability.

5. In another perspective a specific Muslim can progress to the next stage to be a Mu'min where strong eeman is necessary. To be a Mu'mim s/he has to perform the 6* pillars of Eeman. * or whatever is necessary to qualify as a Mu'min.

6. A Mu'min who is also a Muslim can progress to the next stage as a Mushin. In order to qualify s/he has to perform X pillars of Inhsaan.

As in 4, a person who has submitted to Allah [entered into a covenant with Allah] is specifically a Muslim and there are 1.5+ billions of Muslims around the world of various degrees and with a wide range of psychological profiles.
The problem is the Quran contain evil laden elements and this trigger those Muslims with evil psychological profiles [with tendency for evil] to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2016, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above is a very superficial view of Islam.
To be more specific and precise, Islam can be presented in the following contexts and perspectives;

1. Islam is supported by its core, i.e. the Quran.
2. Islam in this sense is a noun, i.e. a religion.
3. The adherents of Islam are Muslims.

4. A Muslim in a specific sense is one who has submitted and has to comply with the 5 pillars of Islam.
This is basic Islam, i.e. al-Islam and it is defined by the 5 pillars of Islam. A Muslim of 'Islam' do not perform 'Islam,' what s/he need to do is to perform the 5 pillars of Islam to the best of his ability.

5. In another perspective a specific Muslim can progress to the next stage to be a Mu'min where strong eeman is necessary. To be a Mu'mim s/he has to perform the 6* pillars of Eeman. * or whatever is necessary to qualify as a Mu'min.

6. A Mu'min who is also a Muslim can progress to the next stage as a Mushin. In order to qualify s/he has to perform X pillars of Inhsaan.

As in 4, a person who has submitted to Allah [entered into a covenant with Allah] is specifically a Muslim and there are 1.5+ billions of Muslims around the world of various degrees and with a wide range of psychological profiles.
The problem is the Quran contain evil laden elements and this trigger those Muslims with evil psychological profiles [with tendency for evil] to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
While it may be a superficial view of Islam, I believe it is very common and probably the most prevelant view.

There is no commandment for a Muslim to read the Qur'an and very few have. I believe the majority of people that call themselves Muslim Have ever read the Qur'an. Many probably most who say they read the Qur'an have ever read and of those who have read it only a small percentage have read it with the Guidance of a Teacher.
I contend that the typical Muslim terrorist has never read the Qur'an. The known profiles of those caught seem to support my claim. While it is true many Terrorists are Muslim, That seems to be a correlation not a cause. There are other factors that cause them to become terrorists:

Quote:
How terrorism flourishes

Aside from the mindset, there are several personality factors that contribute to terrorism.

Sarah Kershaw in the New York Times cites Ervin Staub from the University of Massachusetts, who says there are three things that lead to terrorist expansion and the way it flourishes today:

Idealists – They support the terror based upon their own ability to identify with the suffering of some group that they are not even a part of. This can be misplaced.
Respondents – They support terror based upon personal experience as a member of a group being defended by a terrorist reportedly acting on the behalf of that persecuted group.
Lost Souls – They are adrift, isolated and often ostracized. They can find a sense of purpose in a radical group, so they are “ripe for the picking.”

Kershaw cites another psychologist, Clark McCauley of Bryn Mawr College, who names four basic trajectories of a terrorist:

Revolutionaries – They are involved in a cause over time.
Wanderers – They move from extremist group to extremist group, searching for a sense of purpose.
Converts – They suddenly break with their past and become a part of an extremist movement.
Compliants – They convert to the group via persuasion by a friend, a relative or a romantic interest.


Read more at Profile of a terrorist: What makes people blow themselves up
Identified terrorists typically have had very little exposure to the Qur'an, if any. They do not have any actual exposure to Islam. Using just ISIS as an example, most are recent converts, with no exposure to the Qur'an and only converted to Islam for the purpose of joining ISIS to satisfy their own desire for violence

Quote:
Beyond age and gender, there are few consistent patterns and no reliable profile of who is likely to become a foreign fighter, but among Western recruits, a disproportionate number of converts can typically be found. (Converts are often especially vulnerable to fundamentalist ideas, often combining wild enthusiasm with a lack of knowledge about their new religion, making them susceptible to recruiters.) This approximate profile has endured for decades, through multiple jihadist conflicts.
ISIS and the Foreign-Fighter Phenomenon - The Atlantic
In other words a Terrorist is not likely to be a Muslim who has had long exposure to the Qur'an or to have been influenced by anything in it. Most are newbies that had a desire to become a terrorist and searched for a means to do so.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top