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Old 04-02-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That statement is irrational and in ignorance. Even you include them in the number of Muslims in the world today. Now you are backtracking.
Note the difference between Muslim [loose] and Muslim [specific].
There are 1.6+ billion Muslims [loose] in the World but only those who have entered into a covenant with Allah are technically Muslims [specific].
You deliberately refuse to recognize this critical linguistic difference.

In communication there is always the loose [wider] use of a term and the specific use of the term. When it is necessary to use the specific term we narrow the meaning with specific qualities of the term.

Quote:
This statement of yours is in ignorance. The only requirement of being a Believer (Mu'min) is the proclaimation of faith (eeman in Allah and His messenger) sincerely. To become a Muslim is not only to believe (heart and mind thing) but submit (in practice) too. That is what the Qur'an is describing. A baby is technically submitting to Allah in the act of being born.
Where in the Quran did Allah state a baby is technically [not loosely] submitting as a Muslim.

Allah created humans to worship him but then Allah gave humans freewill to decide to a Muslim [loose].
To be a Muslim [specific] one must enter into a covenant with Allah via the essentials of 'Shahada' in whatever form.
A baby cannot make decisions, therefore a baby cannot be technically a Muslim [specific] until the baby grows to have the competence to do so.

Quote:
As I described, a baby is Muslim as he is born submitting to Allah's command.
You are talking nonsense here.
Submitting is a conscious act to submit [verb].
A baby do not have the awareness to submit.

Quote:
They are the best Muslims as they have not yet disobeyed God even once. Their only act so far (of being born) is what makes them Muslims.
Note not all babies are born Muslim.
It would be a personal insult to me to insist I was born a Muslim.
A baby born to Muslim parents is generally recognized as a Muslim merely by virtue both the parents are Muslims. This is merely a social conventional and not a technical rule.
There are many babies who are born to Christian father and Muslim mother, but they are assumed to be a Christian and raised a Christian and become an official Christian when the baby is baptized later.

Quote:
If Allah recognizes them Muslims then to hell with your linguistic ignorance with the term Muslim!
This show you have run out intellectual bullets to counter my facts.
As I has proven above, where in the Quran did Allah state babies are technically Muslims [specific].
Note the case of babies born to Christian, Hindu, non-Muslim fathers who were not recognized as Muslims.

Quote:
You are talking in ignorance. The Shahada is said in every baby's ears immediately they are born. I have yet to see any baby rejecting it. In fact, I have seen babies often smile when they hear the Shahada.
This is really stupid [of low intellect capacity] to expect a baby to reject the Shahada that was read into the baby's ears.

Quote:
The degrees are after the judgment. Here in this world, before the Judgment Day, you can't judge in terms of degrees.
Again this is stupid and will make not enable you to be a better Muslim [technically] and a Mu'min or Mushin.
Obviously a Muslim [Loose] cannot judge like Allah but it is a Muslim's* duty to strive to understand his own degree of achievement as a Muslim technically.
* note when I don't quality Muslim, then I meant Muslim [loose].
For example, one who pray 5 times a day everyday would be in a higher degree of Muslim-ness than another who pray 5 times a day on alternate days.
Thus a good Muslim must always be aware of his degree of Muslim-ness in comparison to Allah's expectations and if he fall short he must have a good reason for it [at least personally].
Note the Quran stated many time in the form 'a Muslim will reap on Judgment Day what he has sowed on Earth.' Note 2:110 and many similar verses in the Quran. in [] is mine.
2:110. [O Muslims] Establish worship, and pay the poor due [zakat]; and whatever of good ye [Muslims] send before (you) [in advance of J-Day] for your souls, ye [Muslims] will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of what ye do. [do good merits for salvation]
Quote:
The Qur'an has many verses in which Mu'mineen are being guided to submit; do certain action which are actions required of Muslimeen. Nowhere in the Qur'an you would find a Muslim not believing in Allah and His ayat.
The above indicate your lack of understanding the matters in depth.
A human has to believe in various degrees before the act with awareness [not instinctly, force, etc.].
A Muslim also will believe whatever is necessary to be a Muslim. Therefore a Muslim is permanent in a state of believing in Allah but with difference degrees and qualities as he progress to be a mu'min or a mushin.
A Muslim is also in a permanent state of submission to Allah at all times.
BUT submission [proper] always precede BELIEVE [proper].

Quote:
No way, according to the Qur'an. It took 22 years for all commands in which the Qur'nic laws were revealed. Complying with those commands by adults is what makes an initial believer to be called Muslim. Before the commands were revealed, just believing in the Ayat made them believers (mu'mineen).
This is merely your one man opinion which is not supported by verses in the Quran.

If you are refer to the new Muslims with Muhammad earlier days of preaching, they were not mumin at all.
They believe [loose] Muhammad's words and they submitted to Allah by acknowledge there is only Allah and Muhammad is the messenger. This process make them Muslims [loose] and they become Muslim [specific] as they comply with commands were slowly revealed over the 23 years.

In any case, what happen then has no relevant today with the complete Quran.

Quote:
Definitely man-created terms.
There are more than 5 or 6 elements in the Qur'an. 5 pillers are merely to teach something very basic about Islam to primary school children. The only pillers mention in the Qur'an are invisible pillers holding the sky up, which means no pillers.
Yes, this is why we believe in God. It is sign of intelligence and competence that one can do that even if we do not see Him like the imagined pillers.
The only piller he has to keep in mind, and comply with, is the piller about Believing.
Believing is essential but what is critical is the actions that has to be done.

Quote:
Neither a Mu'min nor a Muslim need to be strong in eeman but just have eeman. Without any eeman, one can't be either Mu'min or Muslim.
Again you are ignorant of human spiritual development.
In any human competence there are weak skill and strong skills which is more preferable.
Yes without eeman one cannot be a Muslim [specific] or Mu'min.
But for a Muslimc [specific] to progress to a mu'min, a Muslim [specific] must develop strong and stronger eeman.

You seem to so blind and refuse to understand reality.
You said you are in education, surely you understand every student need to have basic mathematics skills but for one to be a Mathematician, engineers, accountant, physicists, and the likes, one must cultivate stronger mathematical knowledge.

It is the same for a Muslim [loose] and Muslim [specific] who need basic 'kindergarten' eeman but to progress to be a Mumin, one need higher and stronger eeman.

Get it.

Quote:
Pilgrimage is the 5th piller but is only for those who are able to travel and have means to travel. Otherwise, only 4 pillers. The first one is the only one for a Mu'min, but all are for a Muslim.
You are very wrong here. The first one is for a Muslim [specific].
I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times [compulsory] so you can better understand Allah's words and be a better Muslim [specific] and progress to be a Mu'min or Mushin. It is better late than never.

Quote:
What a silly example you have givn here. Western Christians are already believers in ayat of the Torah and the Gospels. Once they come to know about the Ayat of the Qur'an and believe them to be from Allah, they are believers (Mu'minern). Being pious after being Mu'mineen is what makes them Muslims.
You think it is silly because you are thinking silly and in denial with a closed mind. This is expected otherwise your faith will not work for you.

We have argued this before, the Quran claim the present Torah and Gospels of the Jews and Western Christian are corrupted texts.
It is only when the accept the Quran recited to Muhammad and submitted to Allah and accept Muhammad as the final messenger that they can be Muslim then Muslim [specific] and thereafter progress to mumin more easily than other because of their eeman potential.

Quote:
The Qur'an-only do not believe in 5 pillers.
The 5 pillars are variously distributed in the Quran and was compiled as a set by Muslims to facilitate communications of the Islamic doctrine. This is a sign of intellectual progress.

Quote:
Wrong! ALLAH exhorts Believers (Mu'mineen) to reflect and ponder over the ayat of the Qur'an because just believing in the ayat is not enough to be Muslim.
This is a stupid accusation. There is nothing wrong with my statement. It is just that there was no need for me to add the reasons for why Muslims need to reflect on the verses at that point. If you think I am wrong, give good justification to support your point.

Allah exhort Muslims [in general] to reflect and understand the verses of the Quran so that they can progress from being Muslim [specific] to become Mu'min and Mushin.
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I referred these versus to you a few times.
The question is, do you think you are a "muttaqi" in the light if any one or more of them 30 translations ?

If not, this book may not be of any use to you.
I don't recall you having done that.
In any case your point indicate a very incompetent and lazy intellectual attitude to reality.

I am a not a Muslim, thus there is no need for me to be a muttagin.
However as a concerned citizen of humanity and reviewing Islam in the light of real terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are triggered by evil laden elements in the Quran, I have to understand [not necessary agree with] the Quran and its elements [including muttagin] fully.

The other point you ignore about yourself and most Muslims is whenever a non-Muslim give views about Islam, they will brush off the non-Muslims for not having read and understand the Quran. If some one has read the Quran, then they insist non-Muslim must read it in Arabic.
Now that I have read and discussing the Quran in depth to get a better understanding, you are complaining I have no use for it. On the contrary, I have great use for understanding [not to agree with] the Quran and Islam as a contribution to the well being of humanity in an attempt to resolve the problem of Quran-inspired evil.

On the other hand, you and the majority of Muslim are crazily worried of dying and be lost souls thus you need Allah as a savior. Such a personal, ignorant and selfish belief is illusory and collectively contribute great sufferings and terrible evil to humanity from SOME [not you nor all] evil prone Muslims.

The above are the reasons why I bring forth the term 'muttagin' for discussion, i.e. to have a greater and very deeper understanding [not necessary agree with] of the Quran and Islam, thus adding reasonable credibility to my views on Islam.
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:44 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the difference between Muslim [loose] and Muslim [specific].
There are 1.6+ billion Muslims [loose] in the World but only those who have entered into a covenant with Allah are technically Muslims [specific].
You deliberately refuse to recognize this critical linguistic difference.
You don't know what you are saying here. If there are 1.6+ loose Muslims in the world and there are specific Muslims too, how many are there in your total?

As for entering into a covenant, the Qur'an is the covenant of the believers. Every one believes in this covenant. After believing they obey, and are regarded Muslims.

3:102 O you who believe! Be consious of Allah with consiousness due to Him, and die not unless you are Muslims.

5:7 Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant with which he bound you when you said: we hear and we obey; and remain consious of Allah. Surely Allah has full knowledge of what is in your hearts.


Quote:
In communication there is always the loose [wider] use of a term and the specific use of the term. When it is necessary to use the specific term we narrow the meaning with specific qualities of the term.

Where in the Quran did Allah state a baby is technically [not loosely] submitting as a Muslim.

Allah created humans to worship him but then Allah gave humans freewill to decide to a Muslim [loose].
To be a Muslim [specific] one must enter into a covenant with Allah via the essentials of 'Shahada' in whatever form.
A baby cannot make decisions, therefore a baby cannot be technically a Muslim [specific] until the baby grows to have the competence to do so.
This is where a proper study of the Qur'an comes handy in understanding what is meant by the word Muslim. Make a note of what I am going to teach you about the word Muslim:

Adam was a Muslim until he disobeyed God. He was punished for disobedience but then he reverted and God forgave him.
How did Adam become Muslim initially? He became a Muslim when he obeyed God's first command "Be" and he came ino existence.

3:59 Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him, Be, and he was.

So by obeying Allah's command 'Be', he became a Muslim (in submission = in islam).

The same way, a baby obeys the command from Allah and comes into existence.

Quote:
You are talking nonsense here.
Submitting is a conscious act to submit [verb].
A baby do not have the awareness to submit.
Obeying God is submitting to God. Whatever is in the heavens and earth submits to Allah, willingly or unwillingly (3:83, 13:15, 41:11). Only an ignorant man won't submit to God after he is old enough to refuse obeying God.

33:72 Surely We offered the trust (freewill) to heavens and earth and the mountains but they refused to be unfaithful to it, and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant.

Quote:
Note not all babies are born Muslim.
It would be a personal insult to me to insist I was born a Muslim.
This is nothing but your dislike/hate/detestation of being Muslim. When you did not have freewill, you submitted to God, but when you had freewill you refuse to submit to God. Don't worry my friend, you definitely WILL submit to God one day just as you had submitted to Him at your creation and birth. You will have to submit to God at your death just as the Pheroah did.

Quote:
A baby born to Muslim parents is generally recognized as a Muslim merely by virtue both the parents are Muslims. This is merely a social conventional and not a technical rule.
There are many babies who are born to Christian father and Muslim mother, but they are assumed to be a Christian and raised a Christian and become an official Christian when the baby is baptized later.

This show you have run out intellectual bullets to counter my facts.
As I has proven above, where in the Quran did Allah state babies are technically Muslims [specific].
Note the case of babies born to Christian, Hindu, non-Muslim fathers who were not recognized as Muslims.
See my above explanation backed by the Qur'an! You will have to bite the bullit.

Quote:
Note the Quran stated many time in the form 'a Muslim will reap on Judgment Day what he has sowed on Earth.' Note 2:110 and many similar verses in the Quran. in [] is mine.
2:110. [O Muslims] Establish worship, and pay the poor due [zakat]; and whatever of good ye [Muslims] send before (you) [in advance of J-Day] for your souls, ye [Muslims] will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of what ye do. [do good merits for salvation]
Adding "O Muslims" in this verses is ignorance and no undertanding of the verse. It is primarily addressed to the followers of the book (Jews and Christians) and then to ALL. Read the verse in context.

Quote:
If you are refer to the new Muslims with Muhammad earlier days of preaching, they were not mumin at all.
They believe [loose] Muhammad's words and they submitted to Allah by acknowledge there is only Allah and Muhammad is the messenger. This process make them Muslims [loose] and they become Muslim [specific] as they comply with commands were slowly revealed over the 23 years.
They believed first and then submitted to Allah. Nobody will submit to Allah without believing Allah first. The moment one acknowledges Allah and His messenger (acknowledges the Message from Allah delivered by the messenger) he is not only believing but submitting to Allah.

Quote:
Believing is essential but what is critical is the actions that has to be done.
That's why they were Mu'mineen becoming Muslims after believing.

Quote:
It is the same for a Muslim [loose] and Muslim [specific] who need basic 'kindergarten' eeman but to progress to be a Mumin, one need higher and stronger eeman.
Even basic eeman is still believing in Allah. There can be no Muslim without even basic eeman. Yes? The wandering Arabs were not Musims because they had no eeman. Don't backtrack now!

Quote:
We have argued this before, the Quran claim the present Torah and Gospels of the Jews and Western Christian are corrupted texts.
Quote the verses of the Qur'an if you are truthful.

Quote:
It is only when the accept the Quran recited to Muhammad and submitted to Allah and accept Muhammad as the final messenger that they can be Muslim then Muslim [specific] and thereafter progress to mumin more easily than other because of their eeman potential.
How did Abraham become a Muslim? After accepting Muhmmad as the final messenger? You are expressing your ignorance here.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You don't know what you are saying here. If there are 1.6+ loose Muslims in the world and there are specific Muslims too, how many are there in your total?
Do you understand what in semantics is meant by a term being used in the loose/wider sense and the specific sense?
I need an answer to this?

Note it is '1.6+ Muslims [loose/wider sense]' not 1.6+ loose Muslims. There is a lot of difference when you change the structure of the phrase.
There are 1.6+ in the loose/wider sense and within this 1.6+ Muslims there are a high percentage of "Muslims" in the specific sense.
Within the Muslims [specific] there are a % of Mu'min.
Within the % of Mumin, there are a % of Mushin.

Quote:
As for entering into a covenant, the Qur'an is the covenant of the believers. Every one believes in this covenant. After believing they obey, and are regarded Muslims.
You got this wrong. This is the problem with your ignorance and insistence on your wrongness is the way.

The Quran is the holy texts of Islam that contain the terms and conditions for the covenant.
Note a covenant is a contract in the theological perspective.
A covenant [like a contract or agreement] need two parties to enter into or agree [sign] to the terms and conditions of the agreement.
In a way a Muslim has to enter into an agreement [covenant] to submit to Allah in exchange for the promises of Paradise made by Allah.
After agreeing to the covenant one has to submit and then comply with the terms and conditions [obey, worship, serve, duty, etc.]

Once the enter or "sign" into the covenant they are submitting to Allah and they are then Muslims [wide term].
When the practice the 5 pillars of Islam, they progress to be Muslims [specific].

After the have achieve Muslim [specific] status, then they can progress to be Mu'min, i.e. serious believers.


Quote:
3:102 O you who believe! Be consious of Allah with consiousness due to Him, and die not unless you are Muslims.

5:7 Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant with which he bound you when you said: we hear and we obey; and remain consious of Allah. Surely Allah has full knowledge of what is in your hearts.
I had stated "Muslims" in 3:102 is used in the general, wide and loose sense.
5:7 is merely a general exhortation to comply with the terms of the covenant.

The basic terms are;
1. Comply with the 5 pillars Islam to be Muslim [specific]
2. Comply with the 6 pillars of Eeman to be a Mu'min [BELIEVER proper].
3. Comply with the ? pillars of Inshaan to be a Mushin.

Quote:
This is where a proper study of the Qur'an comes handy in understanding what is meant by the word Muslim. Make a note of what I am going to teach you about the word Muslim:

Adam was a Muslim until he disobeyed God. He was punished for disobedience but then he reverted and God forgave him.
How did Adam become Muslim initially? He became a Muslim when he obeyed God's first command "Be" and he came ino existence.

3:59 Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him, Be, and he was.

So by obeying Allah's command 'Be', he became a Muslim (in submission = in islam).

The same way, a baby obeys the command from Allah and comes into existence.

Obeying God is submitting to God. Whatever is in the heavens and earth submits to Allah, willingly or unwillingly (3:83, 13:15, 41:11). Only an ignorant man won't submit to God after he is old enough to refuse obeying God.

33:72 Surely We offered the trust (freewill) to heavens and earth and the mountains but they refused to be unfaithful to it, and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant.
Teaching me?? That is foolish arrogance.
You have NO credibility nor qualification to teach me about the Quran and Islam.

Adam was a Muslim in the general sense and it was implied he entered into a covenant with Allah.
To be a Muslim [specific] Adam will have to perform the 5 pillars of Islam.
To be a Mu'min Adam will have to perform the 6 pillars of eeman.

You are wrong. Adam was a Muslim all the time. Even when his committed some sin [pardonable] he was still a Muslim [general].

Your 'baby submitted to Allah' is nonsense.

Why should I submit to a God that I am very certain do not exists as real.

I can understand why it is so critical for you to submit to an illusory God. That is because of your [and the majority who] desperate psychology which . For many who ignore God they are vulnerable to be psychotic.

Note this experience
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43533469-post5.html *
which is common to most theists who are trapped with a belief in God and if they try to get out, they will suffer if they are vulnerable.
This is why most theists will defend the belief to death even if it is false.

* my respect for any one who has raise himself maturedly and break away from that psychological imprisonment.
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is nothing but your dislike/hate/detestation of being Muslim. When you did not have freewill, you submitted to God, but when you had freewill you refuse to submit to God. Don't worry my friend, you definitely WILL submit to God one day just as you had submitted to Him at your creation and birth. You will have to submit to God at your death just as the Pheroah did.
Another load of your nonsense without any rational justifications.

Quote:
Adding "O Muslims" in this verses is ignorance and no understanding of the verse. It is primarily addressed to the followers of the book (Jews and Christians) and then to ALL. Read the verse in context.
Add 'O Muslims' is correct.

Note 2:109
2:109. Many of the People of the Scripture [Jews & Christians] long to make you [Muslims] disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
Now you tell me,

It is obvious in the above "you" refer to Muslims.

Then it follows, it is the Muslims who are supposed to worship and pay zakat, otherwise who else.

2:110. [O Muslims] Establish worship, and pay the poor due [zakat]; and whatever of good ye [Muslims] send before (you) for your souls, ye will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of what ye do.

Now you are the one who is ignorant and has no understanding of the verse.

Quote:
They believed first and then submitted to Allah. Nobody will submit to Allah without believing Allah first. The moment one acknowledges Allah and His messenger (acknowledges the Message from Allah delivered by the messenger) he is not only believing but submitting to Allah.
Just as you failed to understand 2:110 and then accuse others of not understanding, this is the same failure on your part to understand the various range of meaning of believe, i.e. the wider and the specific sense.

Quote:
That's why they were Mu'mineen becoming Muslims after believing.
You are wrong because you failed to understand the range of meaning of believe, i.e. the wider and the specific sense.
Btw, I do not have any vested theological interest in all these interpretations except being objective to what the Quran intended. If you understood the Quran wrongly you may missed or will be delayed [tarry longer] in hell before going to Paradise with lower rewards.

Quote:
Even basic eeman is still believing in Allah. There can be no Muslim without even basic eeman. Yes? The wandering Arabs were not Musims because they had no eeman. Don't backtrack now!
Again you failed to understand the degree of eeman.
Note 49:17 confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims.

Quote:
How did Abraham become a Muslim? After accepting Muhmmad as the final messenger? You are expressing your ignorance here.
Abraham was a Muslim [loose] form when he entered into a covenant with Allah and accepted by Allah.
The Shahada with the clause on Muhammad was only after Muhammad was chosen by Allah to be a messenger.

Quote:
We have argued this before, the Quran claim the present Torah and Gospels of the Jews and Western Christian are corrupted texts.
Quote:
Quote the verses of the Qur'an if you are truthful.
I have supplied the verses before in another post and I do not want to waste time doing it again. Here are two verses for example,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing.

2:75 Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?
Because the Torah and Gospel had been changed from Allah's original revelation, they are thus corrupted and cannot be relied upon.

As I said, there are many similar verses to the above.
If you read the Quran at least 50 times, you will surely not missed them.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:50 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Do you understand what in semantics is meant by a term being used in the loose/wider sense and the specific sense?
I need an answer to this?
There is only one term "Muslim". One is either a "Muslim" or not a "Muslim". In the Qur'an there is only one term; the only term for a "Muslim". This crap about loose sense and specific sense is only in your head.

Quote:
Note it is '1.6+ Muslims [loose/wider sense]' not 1.6+ loose Muslims. There is a lot of difference when you change the structure of the phrase.
There are 1.6+ in the loose/wider sense and within this 1.6+ Muslims there are a high percentage of "Muslims" in the specific sense.
That is daft; the same Muslims can't be both loose sense Muslims and specific sense Muslims at the same time. They are all Muslims or some of them are not really Muslims.

Quote:
Within the Muslims [specific] there are a % of Mu'min.
Within the % of Mumin, there are a % of Mushin.
Muslims are Mu'mineen, Mu'hsineen, Muttaqeen. They are all Muslims with various attributes.

Quote:
You got this wrong. This is the problem with your ignorance and insistence on your wrongness is the way.
The feelling is mutual.

Quote:
The Quran is the holy texts of Islam that contain the terms and conditions for the covenant.
Note a covenant is a contract in the theological perspective.
A contract or covenant has all the terms and conditions. The Qur'an has all the terms and conditions and, therefore, is the covenant/contract in the theological perspective. You are ignorant about it if you can't understand it.

Quote:
A covenant [like a contract or agreement] need two parties to enter into or agree [sign] to the terms and conditions of the agreement.
In a way a Muslim has to enter into an agreement [covenant] to submit to Allah in exchange for the promises of Paradise made by Allah.
After agreeing to the covenant one has to submit and then comply with the terms and conditions [obey, worship, serve, duty, etc.]

Once the enter or "sign" into the covenant they are submitting to Allah and they are then Muslims [wide term].
When the practice the 5 pillars of Islam, they progress to be Muslims [specific].

After the have achieve Muslim [specific] status, then they can progress to be Mu'min, i.e. serious believers.
You are deeply stuck in your warpped understanding. You are always thinking the wrong way round.

All the terms and condition for both parties are in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the covenant between Allah and the those who "believe" in the covenant (the Qur'an); the "believers"/"mu'mineen" are one party (5:7, 33:23) to the covenant and Allah the other. It is only after a "believer"/mu'min complies with his side of the terms that he begins to meet the condition of submitting, and is then called "Muslim" as well as "believer" ("mu'min").

It is really silly of you to go against the clear explanations of the terms in the Qur'an and stay stuck in your wrapped understanding.

Quote:
I had stated "Muslims" in 3:102 is used in the general, wide and loose sense.
5:7 is merely a general exhortation to comply with the terms of the covenant.
Stop waffling! The Qur'an 3:102 and 5:7 have destroyed your twisted understanding, and now you are looking for a straw to hang on to.
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Old 04-03-2016, 05:58 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Add 'O Muslims' is correct.

Note 2:109
2:109. Many of the People of the Scripture [Jews & Christians] long to make you [Muslims] disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
Now you tell me,

It is obvious in the above "you" refer to Muslims.
The "you" in this verse refers to "those with eeman" ("the believers"). See 2:104. So read the verse like this:

2:109 Many (not all) of the people of the book long to make you (believers/mu'mineen) disbelieves, afer your eeman, through envy on their part, after truth has become manifest unto them. Forgive them and forebear until Allah's Will (Decison). Verily Allah has power over all things.

Quote:
Then it follows, it is the Muslims who are supposed to worship and pay zakat, otherwise who else.
Then the later verses command these mu'minern to submit by worshipping, paying zakat etc. This will make the believers Muslims. They believed first and then had to submit to Allah to be Muslims as well. It quite simple to understand, isn't it? ☺

Quote:
2:110. [O Muslims] Establish worship, and pay the poor due [zakat]; and whatever of good ye [Muslims] send before (you) for your souls, ye will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of what ye do.

Now you are the one who is ignorant and has no understanding of the verse.
Now you are ignorant because you do not know that Muslims would already be worshipping and paying the poor rate. They do not need to be told to do what they are already doing. That will make no sense. But it does make sense to command a "believers" ("mu'mineen") who have so far only believed but have to submit too by worshipping and paying the poor rate to be known as Muslims (Submitters). Therefore, adding "O Muslims" is daft. It should be "O Mu'minern" or "O Believers".

Quote:
Just as you failed to understand 2:110 and then accuse others of not understanding, this is the same failure on your part to understand the various range of meaning of believe, i.e. the wider and the specific sense.
You are in need of serious study of the Qur'an with open mind. At the moment, even after 50+ fast reading of translations, you are a long way from understanding the message of the Qur'an.

Quote:
You are wrong because you failed to understand the range of meaning of believe, i.e. the wider and the specific sense.
There is only one meaning of theological meaning of believe and that is believing that a message is from Allah. The other "believes" are your secular several believes of all kind of senses that are senseless theologically. No point in trying imposing or even compare them in theology.

Quote:
Btw, I do not have any vested theological interest in all these interpretations except being objective to what the Quran intended. If you understood the Quran wrongly you may missed or will be delayed [tarry longer] in hell before going to Paradise with lower rewards.
And if you understand the Qur'an correctly but do not believe and submit, you wll tarry in there forever.

Quote:
Again you failed to understand the degree of eeman.
Note 49:17 confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims.
Impossible without any eeman entering their hearts!

Quote:
Abraham was a Muslim [loose] form when he entered into a covenant with Allah and accepted by Allah.
The Shahada with the clause on Muhammad was only after Muhammad was chosen by Allah to be a messenger.
When Abraham entered into a covenant with Allah, he had only "believed" by then. He had not yet been tried with commands to submit. The covenant did not include "believing" but "submitting". Complying with the terms and conditions of the covenant was what made Abraham a Muslim.
Believing is prerequisite of submitting. Nobody can submit to God without believing Him first. I will keep hammering this fundamental theological fact until you begin to undertand it.

Quote:
I have supplied the verses before in another post and I do not want to waste time doing it again. Here are two verses for example,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing.

2:75 Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?
Because the Torah and Gospel had been changed from Allah's original revelation, they are thus corrupted and cannot be relied upon.
The verses you have quoted say nothing of the Torah and the Gospels having been corrupted. All the the verse 2:59 is saying is that they changed what was said to them in the verse 2:58. The verse 2:75 is telling us about the Jews in Madina who used to hear the word of Allah (the Qur'an) but then tried to twist them with their mouths. The party of those Jews in Madina could not have corrupted the Torah.

The Qur'an confirmed the Torah they had with them.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is only one term "Muslim". One is either a "Muslim" or not a "Muslim". In the Qur'an there is only one term; the only term for a "Muslim". This crap about loose sense and specific sense is only in your head.
That is the problem with your narrow understanding when you have read the Quran 6-7 times only.
In addition your intellectual capacity is low when you insist there are no degrees to any term, e.g. Muslim [specific], Mumin [specific], Mushin [specific], even half/quarter black or white in mixed race situations, etc.

Allah recognized grades, degrees and variations in one being a Muslim or Mumin, note
8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.
Note there are many such verses.

Quote:
That is daft; the same Muslims can't be both loose sense Muslims and specific sense Muslims at the same time. They are all Muslims or some of them are not really Muslims.
So you are saying Allah is daft as well?
Note in 8:4, Allah stated there are grades to Muslims.


Quote:
Muslims are Mu'mineen, Mu'hsineen, Muttaqeen. They are all Muslims with various attributes.
You don't seem or deliberately deny context.
All Mumin, Mushin and Muttagin are Muslim [specific].
Not All Muslims [loose] or Muslims [specific] are Mumin, or Mushin or Muttagin

Get the point?

Quote:
A contract or covenant has all the terms and conditions. The Qur'an has all the terms and conditions and, therefore, is the covenant/contract in the theological perspective. You are ignorant about it if you can't understand it.
I suggest you update yourself on basic Law of Contract.
There are models of contracts but there is no actual contract unless the two parties agree to it by signing it or via implied agreements.
The Quran contain a pro-forma* covenant amongst other doctrines and principles and there is no official covenant until the person deliberately enter into the agreement with Allah via the Shahada [implied or explicitly].
* it has to be a pro-forma because Allah will not introduce a new one every time some one want to convert to Islam via submission and "signing" the contract.
Once the person has entered into a covenant with Allah, he has submitted [specific] to Allah and therefrom has to comply with the terms and conditions as stated in the Quran.

Quote:
You are deeply stuck in your warpped understanding. You are always thinking the wrong way round

All the terms and condition for both parties are in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the covenant between Allah and the those who "believe" in the covenant (the Qur'an); the "believers"/"mu'mineen" are one party (5:7, 33:23) to the covenant and Allah the other. It is only after a "believer"/mu'min complies with his side of the terms that he begins to meet the condition of submitting, and is then called "Muslim" as well as "believer" ("mu'min").

It is really silly of you to go against the clear explanations of the terms in the Qur'an and stay stuck in your wrapped understanding.
I have given you a detailed explanation of my basis.
Note in 49:14 Allah stated [via Muhammad] submit [proper] precede BELIEVE [proper].

As I have mentioned the odds are against you because you are the rare few amongst the 1.6++ Muslims who has such a view.
As such, I suggest you reflect deeply on your wrong view.

Quote:
Stop waffling! The Qur'an 3:102 and 5:7 have destroyed your twisted understanding, and now you are looking for a straw to hang on to.
Note my views which is the same with the all the Islamic scholars I have read, i.e.

I had stated "Muslims" in 3:102 is used in the general, wide and loose sense.
5:7 is merely a general exhortation to comply with the terms of the covenant.

The point is the term 'believe,' 'believers' are used in various senses throughout the Quran and one must be sensitive to the contexts, i.e. either in the loose/wide or in the specific sense.

Somehow your defense is to denial the existence of the use of the wide and specific sense of a term in the linguistic perspective. You are denying the truth in this case.

Note this discussion on 'loose' versus 'strict' sense.
http://forum.wordreference.com/threa...-word.3157750/

Frankly you got to be more serious with this issue between loose and wide, or loose and strict.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The "you" in this verse refers to "those with eeman" ("the believers"). See 2:104. So read the verse like this:

2:109 Many (not all) of the people of the book long to make you (believers/mu'mineen) disbelieves, afer your eeman, through envy on their part, after truth has become manifest unto them. Forgive them and forebear until Allah's Will (Decison). Verily Allah has power over all things.

Then the later verses command these mu'minern to submit by worshipping, paying zakat etc. This will make the believers Muslims. They believed first and then had to submit to Allah to be Muslims as well. It quite simple to understand, isn't it? ☺
Note 49:14 and 49:17 [as used by all Islamic scholars I read] is critical to this argument.

The "you" in 2:109 refers to Muslims [loose] and the eeman is also in the loose form.
According to 49:14 and 49:17 submit [proper] precede believe [proper].

Quote:
Now you are ignorant because you do not know that Muslims would already be worshipping and paying the poor rate. They do not need to be told to do what they are already doing. That will make no sense. But it does make sense to command a "believers" ("mu'mineen") who have so far only believed but have to submit too by worshipping and paying the poor rate to be known as Muslims (Submitters). Therefore, adding "O Muslims" is daft. It should be "O Mu'minern" or "O Believers".
Note it is Allah who exhorted the Muslims [loose] to worship and pay zakat.
The point is at the point when a person submit [proper] to Allah, he has not began diligent worshipping and payment of zakat. This is why Allah exhort and remind them to do so.

I have no problem is "O Believers" is used but then this term 'believer' is used in the loose sense and not the strict/specific sense. This way this point will align with 49:14 & 17 plus with the rest of the Quran in context.

Quote:
You are in need of serious study of the Qur'an with open mind. At the moment, even after 50+ fast reading of translations, you are a long way from understanding the message of the Qur'an.
Note my agreement with all the Islamic scholars in this specific issue re Muslim versus Mumin indicate I have some high degree of understanding.
With your reading of 6-7 times of the Quran, you have ended as an odd-Muslim-out [odd man out] amongst the 1.5+ billion Muslims.

Quote:
There is only one meaning of theological meaning of believe and that is believing that a message is from Allah. The other "believes" are your secular several believes of all kind of senses that are senseless theologically. No point in trying imposing or even compare them in theology.
Things and terms in the loose and strict sense. i.e. translated to degrees, percentages, grades, intensity and the likes are the truth of reality.
How can you deny the truth of reality?
If you insist in not agreeing with the truth of reality in this case, then you are deluded.

Quote:
Impossible without any eeman entering their hearts!
Again you are denying the truth of reality, i.e. degrees of eeman.

Quote:
When Abraham entered into a covenant with Allah, he had only "believed" by then. He had not yet been tried with commands to submit. The covenant did not include "believing" but "submitting". Complying with the terms and conditions of the covenant was what made Abraham a Muslim.
Believing is prerequisite of submitting. Nobody can submit to God without believing Him first. I will keep hammering this fundamental theological fact until you begin to undertand it.
Again you are denying the truth of reality, i.e. degrees of believe.
Abraham was a Muslim when he submitted to Allah when he entered into a covenant with Allah.

I suggest you challenge the Islamic scholars [I am sure all -except rare if any] who understand 'submit [proper] always precedes believe [proper] for the sake of Islam in the Islamic community.
When you have win any scholar to your view 'believe [proper] precede submit [proper] then let me know.

Btw, I suggest you add [proper] to your proposition 'believe precede submit' to the more precise 'believe [proper] precede submit [proper].
Generalization without with being specific is very bad logic in this particular issue.

Quote:
The verses you have quoted say nothing of the Torah and the Gospels having been corrupted. All the the verse 2:59 is saying is that they changed what was said to them in the verse 2:58. The verse 2:75 is telling us about the Jews in Madina who used to hear the word of Allah (the Qur'an) but then tried to twist them with their mouths. The party of those Jews in Madina could not have corrupted the Torah.
That is you ignorance because you read the Quran only 6-7 times.

If you have understood the Quran in more details, you would have noted Allah warns the Muslims [loose] the Jews and Christians are always trying to convert them to their beliefs. So they have to be very alert to such a threat
If the present Torah and Gospels are exactly the same as the Quran or they are not corrupted then why do Allah warn them against the threat of the Jews and Christians.
This proves the Torah and Gospels [which contain the beliefs of the Jews and Christians respectively] of the present are corrupted.

Note the above point is expressed and implied in various sets of verses all over the Quran. When one has read the Quran at least 50 times one will be able to sense this point.

Quote:
The Qur'an confirmed the Torah they had with them.
Technically the Quran can only confirm the Torah that is not corrupted at all. Perhaps the Jews had it somewhere at some time in history, BUT,
such an uncorrupted Torah do not exists at present because whatever Torah is available to be read is the corrupted version.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 49:14 and 49:17 [as used by all Islamic scholars I read] is critical to this argument.

The "you" in 2:109 refers to Muslims [loose] and the eeman is also in the loose form.
According to 49:14 and 49:17 submit [proper] precede believe [proper].

Note it is Allah who exhorted the Muslims [loose] to worship and pay zakat.
The point is at the point when a person submit [proper] to Allah, he has not began diligent worshipping and payment of zakat. This is why Allah exhort and remind them to do so.

I have no problem is "O Believers" is used but then this term 'believer' is used in the loose sense and not the strict/specific sense. This way this point will align with 49:14 & 17 plus with the rest of the Quran in context.

Note my agreement with all the Islamic scholars in this specific issue re Muslim versus Mumin indicate I have some high degree of understanding.
With your reading of 6-7 times of the Quran, you have ended as an odd-Muslim-out [odd man out] amongst the 1.5+ billion Muslims.

Things and terms in the loose and strict sense. i.e. translated to degrees, percentages, grades, intensity and the likes are the truth of reality.
How can you deny the truth of reality?
If you insist in not agreeing with the truth of reality in this case, then you are deluded.

Again you are denying the truth of reality, i.e. degrees of eeman.

Again you are denying the truth of reality, i.e. degrees of believe.
Abraham was a Muslim when he submitted to Allah when he entered into a covenant with Allah.

I suggest you challenge the Islamic scholars [I am sure all -except rare if any] who understand 'submit [proper] always precedes believe [proper] for the sake of Islam in the Islamic community.
When you have win any scholar to your view 'believe [proper] precede submit [proper] then let me know.

Btw, I suggest you add [proper] to your proposition 'believe precede submit' to the more precise 'believe [proper] precede submit [proper].
Generalization without with being specific is very bad logic in this particular issue.

That is you ignorance because you read the Quran only 6-7 times.

If you have understood the Quran in more details, you would have noted Allah warns the Muslims [loose] the Jews and Christians are always trying to convert them to their beliefs. So they have to be very alert to such a threat
If the present Torah and Gospels are exactly the same as the Quran or they are not corrupted then why do Allah warn them against the threat of the Jews and Christians.
This proves the Torah and Gospels [which contain the beliefs of the Jews and Christians respectively] of the present are corrupted.

Note the above point is expressed and implied in various sets of verses all over the Quran. When one has read the Quran at least 50 times one will be able to sense this point.


Technically the Quran can only confirm the Torah that is not corrupted at all. Perhaps the Jews had it somewhere at some time in history, BUT,
such an uncorrupted Torah do not exists at present because whatever Torah is available to be read is the corrupted version.
When we speak of corruption in the scriptures it is not so much that the words have been changed but that the people have ceased submitting as instructed



also the Torah is in 2 forms the Written Torah (tanakh) and the oral Torah (Talmud) which was not to be written but was written in the 2nd Century CE For a Jewish opinion see: Judaism 101: Torah

Overallwe can still find a very large portion of the Torah and we are still obligated to follow it. To the extent of what was the original revelation.

The Inil of Jesus(a.s) was never saved and no longer exists. We get a hint of what it contained through what might be actual quotes of Jesus(a.s.) but those can not be verified."The Gospel of Thomas" which was followed by the Thomason Christians in Kerala India by St Thomas, possibly while Jesus (a.s.) still walked the Earth just may contain actual quotes from the Injeel The Church in Kerala was founded before the Bible was written and until they converted to Catholicism their Bible consisted only of the "Gospel of Thomas"

A little about the Thomason Christians The Surprisingly Early History of Christianity in India | Travel | Smithsonian

The Gospel of Thomas which was declared Gnostic and not accepted by the Council of Nicea stopped being used in the Greek and Roman churches: The Gospel of Thomas Collection - Translations and Resources

It is possible that contains quotes from the Injeel.

The Bible throughout the centuries has varied in length from denomination to denomination the Shortest being the Thomasons who considered the Bible to be the a single book the "Gospel of Thomas" with no other books to the Ethiopian Bible (still in use) which has 81 books the standard Protestant bibles of today have 66 books and the standard Catholic bibles have 73 books, the First edition of the KJV had 80 books. Some other early Christian Bibles were "Gospel of the Nazarenes" "Gospel of the Hebrews" and "Gospel of the Ebionites"
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