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Old 04-05-2016, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Now I understand how you understand one to be Muslim; he must obey all the commands in one second. How daft!
You display real daftness by simply jumping to conclusion others are daft.

Explain to me where did I say he must be a Muslim by obeying all the commands in one second?
Otherwise you are lying because you are desperate. You should use your brain.

I implied earlier in my post, a person becomes a Muslim [loose] the moment he declared the Shahada [some form] and at the same moment submit to Allah.

I have given this example;
Generally, a person is a student [loose] the moment he enrolled in a school [institution] by agreement to be a student [loose].

Quote:
A Muslim does not progress to be a Mu'min but he is already a Mu'min the moment he believes even before proclaiming Shahada. The moment he declares, he is not only believing but submitting too. Then he carries on being Muslim through various actions and deeds required of him that are also within the requiremnts for Mu'hsin and Muttaqi.
You are obviously wrong.
Note in 49:14 Allah conveyed the point the wandering Arabs who were Muslims [49:17] had not believed. But as Muslims they had only submitted.

Quote:
A Muslim does not progress to be a Mu'min but he is already a Mu'min the moment he believes even before proclaiming Shahada.
All over the world all adherents of Islam are called 'Muslims' [loose]. They are never identified as mumin.

I agree there could be [not imperatively] a very small degree of believe before one submit, but such 'believe' is in the loose sense and not significant. A Muslim [loose] began to cultivate and strengthen his believing and belief as he progress with his various actions and performances as a Muslim.

Example of degrees of believe.
A. Believe - loose and of low degree
1. Suppose I recommend you to take tonic X [new to you] for good health and feeling extraordinary.
2. Obviously you will have doubts, but because I am a nutrition-scientist and have credibility, you believe [have some trust and faith]me on that basis.
3. However note this believe is in the loose sense and is of very low degree.

B. Believe - strict and high degree - BELIEVER
4. Then you take tonic X every day for one year and will continue to do so because of the positive results you have achieved.
5. You are feeling good, your doctor confirmed through all sorts of testing whatever ailments you had in the past have disappeared and improved in other aspects of your health.
6. Now that you have personal feel very good and empirical testing has proven your good health, you will declare 'Now I am a BELIEVER of the potential of tonic X as an excellent health product'.

Can you see the difference between scenario A and B?
Surely you have to because it is very obvious in our common experiences in many aspects of our life.

When something new is introduced to you, you either believe or reject it based on existing knowledge, feelings, instinct or intuition.
If you believe at the first instance it cannot only be in the loose form and a low degree belief.

The above scenario A and B is the same with a believer in any religion and thus between a Muslim [loose] and Islam.
The above is the reality of human nature and should be the same for Muslims.

Get it?


Quote:
You can do good to others but if you do not believe and do not submit to Allah you are not a Muslim but unbeliever.
This statement is a mess and not orderly. You are trying to get your way through by presenting confusions. It will not work.
Btw, if you are wrong it has an impact on you on Judgment Day for messing up Islam.
I have not vested theological interests except to be intellectually objective in understanding [not agreeing] what Allah intended to convey in the Quran.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:57 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. At 12.00 noon X declared the Shahada, i.e. he submitted.
2. At 12.01 X is officially a Muslim.

As a Muslim at 12.01 did X has the following qualities?

(a) having eeman,
(b) doing good to others,
(c) having taqwa and
(d) submitting to Allah

the only sure quality X has is (d). X could not have perform the 6 pillars of eeman and (b) within one minute.
My apology about you suggesting "in one second".. It was within one minute.

In the above, he has eeman, has taqwa, quite likely has already done good to others, and is submitting to ALLAH. He is both Mu'min and Muttaqui, as well as Muslim.
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
My apology about you suggesting "in one second".. It was within one minute.

In the above, he has eeman, has taqwa, quite likely has already done good to others, and is submitting to ALLAH. He is both Mu'min and Muttaqui, as well as Muslim.
Actually I wanted to use "one second" to press the point.

The above is irrational and absurd.
There is no way he could have done all those within one minute after declaring the Shahada.
What counts for a Muslim [loose] is the deeds after his conversion to Islam not before.

Before he declared the Shahada, he may have believed in idols, partners of God, or committing lots of sins [pardonable and unpardonable].
Therefore your statement,
"he has eeman, has taqwa, quite likely has already done good to others," as a generic point [applies to all who has just converted after 1 minute]
is [I have to say] stupid because you are not thinking seriously.
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Old 04-07-2016, 04:00 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Actually I wanted to use "one second" to press the point.

The above is irrational and absurd.
There is no way he could have done all those within one minute after declaring the Shahada.
What counts for a Muslim [loose] is the deeds after his conversion to Islam not before.

Before he declared the Shahada, he may have believed in idols, partners of God, or committing lots of sins [pardonable and unpardonable].
Therefore your statement,
"he has eeman, has taqwa, quite likely has already done good to others," as a generic point [applies to all who has just converted after 1 minute]
is [I have to say] stupid because you are not thinking seriously.
I don't think you are thinking seriously. I am sure a reverted Muslim will not agree with you but agree with me on this point.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't think you are thinking seriously. I am sure a reverted Muslim will not agree with you but agree with me on this point.
As a revert I agree. I did all 3 almost instantaneously. The moment I I realized Allaah(swt) was real I said the Shahadah,the Shahadah was my first deed. If I had died at that moment I would have had fully completed being Mu'min, Muslim and Mushin. all at virtually the same moment

We are never accountable for what is beyond our control. If we have the sincere intent and something beyond our control prevents us from doing anything it is as if we have done such.

A revert at the moment of accepting Islam is at the highest level of eeman he will ever reach. From then on as we learn and grow our responsibilities increase. We therefor have to constantly grow just to keep our Eeman at the level it was the moment we reverted.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:35 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As a revert I agree. I did all 3 almost instantaneously. The moment I I realized Allaah(swt) was real I said the Shahadah,the Shahadah was my first deed. If I had died at that moment I would have had fully completed being Mu'min, Muslim and Mushin. all at virtually the same moment
Only a person with eeman would understand what you have just expressed. Such feeling is beyond someone without eeman.

Even a born Muslim like me will never have such an exalting and peaceful experience. Because of this I always feel not having such an experience. I also have great admiration for the courage of reverts. It takes a very brave person to accept Islam, which is not easy thing to do. Accepting extra responsibilities is not easy until one feels the peace and content in one's heart. The nearest I have come to such an experience was on completion of my "journey of a lifetime" in 2000. It was like being born again without burdens of my past years.

Quote:
We are never accountable for what is beyond our control. If we have the sincere intent and something beyond our control prevents us from doing anything it is as if we have done such.
Absolutely true!

7:42 As for those who attain to faith and do good deeds - (and) We do not burden such souls with more than they can bear - they are destined for paradise, therein to abide.

Quote:
A revert at the moment of accepting Islam is at the highest level of eeman he will ever reach. From then on as we learn and grow our responsibilities increase. We therefor have to constantly grow just to keep our Eeman at the level it was the moment we reverted.
This is why I often admire the strength of a revert's eeman and the sacrifices made to reach such a station in eeman. Our friend in discussion here is never going to experience such height but I also won't be surprised if he proves me wrong in this last prediction of mine.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't think you are thinking seriously. I am sure a reverted Muslim will not agree with you but agree with me on this point.
As usual you are just waving but with not proper arguments and justifications.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As a revert I agree. I did all 3 almost instantaneously. The moment I I realized Allaah(swt) was real I said the Shahadah,the Shahadah was my first deed. If I had died at that moment I would have had fully completed being Mu'min, Muslim and Mushin. all at virtually the same moment

We are never accountable for what is beyond our control. If we have the sincere intent and something beyond our control prevents us from doing anything it is as if we have done such.

A revert at the moment of accepting Islam is at the highest level of eeman he will ever reach. From then on as we learn and grow our responsibilities increase. We therefor have to constantly grow just to keep our Eeman at the level it was the moment we reverted.
The moment you declare the Shahada, you have by implications submitted to Allah and entered into a covenant with Allah with its terms and conditions stipulated in the Quran. Your status is merely a Muslim-in-general.
In other words you are a Muslim [loose] at the kindergarten level [using the academic analogy].
Using the same analogy, a Muslim [kindergarten] has to progress to grade school, college, masters, PhD, i.e. there are grades to climb in one's Islamic development.

You are merely making a personal and subjective claim you will be a Mu'min, Muslim and Mushin if you die immediately after declaring the Shahada. Anyone can make such a claim but it does not make them so in the strict sense in accordance to the verses in the Quran.
Using the academic analogy, as a kindergarten-Muslim you cannot jump to be a Masters-Muslim or PhD-Muslim in one minute.

Not all reverts convert to another religion with amplified feelings, e.g. epiphany, ecstasy, relieved, etc.
There are many reverts who feel extraordinarily but these are feeling of relieved out of psychological desperations or altered states of consciousness.
It is like a person who have been saved after being lost at sea for 7 days.
One can read thousands of such testimonies in the web.

In principle and in accordance to the Quran, after a person has declared the Shahada that person is technically a Muslim-in-general [loose term].
To be a Muslim [strictly] that person has to perform the 5 pillars of Islam [haj not compulsory] diligently, consistently and after a reasonable time [say at least few months]. In addition, a new Muslim [loose] will face many obstacles and tests to qualify as a Muslim in the strict sense. Allah mentioned in the Quran, a believers will face tests from Allah.
If there is any eeman, it is only superficial low degree eeman in the loose term.

While a person is a muslim [strict] he may have eeman or cultivating eeman at the same time but such eeman is not strong enough to qualify such person to be a mumin in the strict sense. To be a mumin in the strict sense one will have to work at it till the process is establish in the mind.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:49 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
While a person is a muslim [strict] he may have eeman or cultivating eeman at the same time but such eeman is not strong enough to qualify such person to be a mumin in the strict sense.
Totally wrong!

26:51 proves you wrong. The moment one believes a message is from Allah, he is a Mu'min.

Quote:
To be a mumin in the strict sense one will have to work at it till the process is establish in the mind.
[/quote]And how is that done, in the mind only or by submission to Allah?
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:59 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The moment you declare the Shahada, you have by implications submitted to Allah and entered into a covenant with Allah with its terms and conditions stipulated in the Quran. Your status is merely a Muslim-in-general.
In other words you are a Muslim [loose] at the kindergarten level [using the academic analogy].
Using the same analogy, a Muslim [kindergarten] has to progress to grade school, college, masters, PhD, i.e. there are grades to climb in one's Islamic development.
You are talking in ignorance about Islam!

The moment one proclaims Shahada, he is believing in Allah, submitting to Allah, has taqwa and is doing good deed. He is no longer unbeliever but is now a believer (mu'min in Arabic language), a Muslim, a Muttaqi and a Mu'hsin.
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