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Old 04-08-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Totally wrong!

26:51 proves you wrong. The moment one believes a message is from Allah, he is a Mu'min.
Yes he is a mu'min but in the loose sense.
I had given you lot of examples re strict and loose sense.

Here is another to the umpteen times.
All normal people are thinkers but they are not THINKERS in the strict sense.
All normal people are also believers but they are not BELIEVERS in the strict sense especially in this case when believe is compared to submit.
Most people [especially women] cook [loose] but they are not cooks [chefs] in the strict sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
To be a mumin in the strict sense one will have to work at it till the process is established in the mind.
[/QUOTE=Khalif]And how is that done, in the mind only or by submission to Allah?[/quote]
All normal people are thinkers but for any one to be a THINKERS in the strict sense, one has to acquire competence in thinking skills and practice to be a THINKER in the strict sense, e.g. great thinkers like Einstein and others.

When one submit to Allah, one is a mumin [believe] in the loose sense.
But to be a mu'min [BELIEVER] in the strict sense one has to perform and achieve a reasonable state of the 6 pillars of eeman.
Note both submission and believing are done within the mind.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes he is a mu'min but in the loose sense.
No. He is Mu'min in precise sense. Once someone believes a Message from Allah, he is Mu'min in the Qur'anic sense which precise sense. In 26:51, as soon as they believed the message Moses had brought to the Pheroah, they were Mu'mineen. The verse says the precise term "mu'mineen".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
And how is that done, in the mind only or by submission to Allah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
When one submit to Allah, one is a mumin [believe] in the loose sense.
When one submits to Allah, he has already had eeman in Allah and in His message. Submitting is result of progress to Muslim statues. Without eeman entering one's heart, submitting will not be to Allah but to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
But to be a mu'min [BELIEVER] in the strict sense one has to perform and achieve a reasonable state of the 6 pillars of eeman.
Note both submission and believing are done within the mind.
No. Not both. Only the believing is done in the mind and heart but submission is action AFTER believing. For example, the first piller (faith) is first achieved through mind and heart only. But when it is proclaimed by the action of your tongue, it is also action of submitting as well as expression of eeman. Giving in charity (poor rate) is first achieved through intention (eeman) and then through action (submitting). When you give in charity (zakat), you are not only achieving status of "mu'min", status of "muslim" but also status of "mu'hsin" and "muttaqi". You are not going to give zakat without having taqwa and eeman.

The Qur'an makes things clear; not everyone who says I believe is a "mu'min". Here "believe" is false believe as in secular sense but "mu'min" is in precise sense of the Qur'anic language and is concerned with having eeman only.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. He is Mu'min in precise sense. Once someone believes a Message from Allah, he is Mu'min in the Qur'anic sense which precise sense. In 26:51, as soon as they believed the message Moses had brought to the Pheroah, they were Mu'mineen. The verse says the precise term "mu'mineen".
There is a difference between 'precise' and 'strict'.
We have been arguing about 'strict' and 'loose' sense not precise.

In this case the Pharaoh could be precisely 'mu'min' [loose] because they believe [loose], but they are not mu'min in the strict sense, i.e. they have not perform the 6 pillars of eeman to attain strong eeman that would have entered into their hearts [note 49:14].


Quote:
When one submits to Allah, he has already had eeman in Allah and in His message. Submitting is result of progress to Muslim statues. Without eeman entering one's heart, submitting will not be to Allah but to someone else.
When one submit [strictly] to Allah one may or may not have eeman.
For eeman to enter one's heart, one has to perform the 6 pillars of eeman and achieving a sufficient degree of strong eeman.

Quote:
No. Not both. Only the believing is done in the mind and heart but submission is action AFTER believing.
For example, the first piller (faith) is first achieved through mind and heart only. But when it is proclaimed by the action of your tongue, it is also action of submitting as well as expression of eeman. Giving in charity (poor rate) is first achieved through intention (eeman) and then through action (submitting). When you give in charity (zakat), you are not only achieving status of "mu'min", status of "muslim" but also status of "mu'hsin" and "muttaqi". You are not going to give zakat without having taqwa and eeman.
You are wrong.
Submission is a state of mind.
After submission any acts are merely the forms of submission not submission in essence.
Submission is the surrender of one's will to another, in this case Allah.
Action after submission are not precisely submission itself.

After one has submitted, all acts [with reference to the master] are related to that submission, there is no point [dumb] in relating the act of submission with every action.

Giving to zakat is not submission itself, it is obeying and doing one's duty, it is a act following one's submission and complying with the terms of the covenant.

Quote:
The Qur'an makes things clear; not everyone who says I believe is a "mu'min". Here "believe" is false believe as in secular sense but "mu'min" is in precise sense of the Qur'anic language and is concerned with having eeman only.
The Quran made it very clear in 49:14 the difference between believe [strict] and believe [loose].
49:14 & 17 conveyed the point that believe [loose] if any precede submitting [strict], but
believe [strict] follows after submission [strict].

The problem is your views are that of an intellectual coward where you refuse to recognize the concepts of strict and loose sense, and then hide behind the vague of the term.
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:23 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,046,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a difference between 'precise' and 'strict'.
We have been arguing about 'strict' and 'loose' sense not precise.
Not "We" but only "you". I know only the precise terms, in the Qur'an. Loose and strict terms are only with you and not in the Qur'an.

Quote:
In this case the Pharaoh could be precisely 'mu'min' [loose] because they believe [loose], but they are not mu'min in the strict sense, i.e. they have not perform the 6 pillars of eeman to attain strong eeman that would have entered into their hearts [note 49:14].
Eeman (not eemans) had entered their hearts as they had proclaimed to be Mu'mineen (precise term). This was unlike those in 49:14 and in the correct order; believing before submitting.

Quote:
When one submit [strictly] to Allah one may or may not have eeman.
No person without eeman will ever submit to Allah. You are a prime example.

Quote:
For eeman to enter one's heart, one has to perform the 6 pillars of eeman and achieving a sufficient degree of strong eeman.
These are 6 subsections of belief in heart and mind only; not physical actions that can be performed like submitting.

Quote:
You are wrong.
Submission is a state of mind.
Submission is done through the 5 pillars, of which the first is done through Shahada. It covers the whole eeman as well as physical action. ISLAM is not in someones mind only.

Quote:
After submission any acts are merely the forms of submission not submission in essence.
Every act related to obeying God is submission. If one does an act of disobeying Allah at any time even after the initial submission, it will be opposite of submission. An apostate does just that. You must be thinking of either secular type of submission of your essay or project or trying to create your own form of unislamic submission (another of your loose terms).

Quote:
Submission is the surrender of one's will to another, in this case Allah.
No person will do it to Allah unless s/he has eeman.

Quote:
Action after submission are not precisely submission itself.
Then do not call the terrorists Muslims! Their evil acts are not submission to Allah as in Islam but submission to Shaytan.

Quote:
After one has submitted, all acts [with reference to the master] are related to that submission, there is no point [dumb] in relating the act of submission with every action.
All acts are orders of your master. Every time you obey any order, you are submitting your will to the will of your master. Disobeying any order of the master will get you punish because you did not do submission to your master this time. So you have to keep submitting with each order.

Quote:
Giving to zakat is not submission itself, it is obeying and doing one's duty, it is a act following one's submission and complying with the terms of the covenant.
It is the term of the covenant that the Mu'min obeys.

[quote]The Quran made it very clear in 49:14 the difference between believe [strict] and believe [loose].[quote]The Qur'an made clear who were liars when claiming to believe. The Qur'an made it clear that they did not believe in (or performed if you like) even one of the six pillars but were falsely claiming to do so.

Quote:
49:14 & 17 conveyed the point that believe [loose] if any precede submitting [strict], but
believe [strict] follows after submission [strict].
They had not believed at all. Who were they submitting to?

Quote:
The problem is your views are that of an intellectual coward where you refuse to recognize the concepts of strict and loose sense, and then hide behind the vague of the term.
The problem here is that a kafir thinks he knows Islam better than a Muslim in this forum. A Muslim is using precise terms and the kafir is using his loose and imagined strict terms that he is familiar with outside Islam. As his terms can't be superimposed on the precise terms of the Qur'an, it is a real problem for him.
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Old 04-10-2016, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not "We" but only "you". I know only the precise terms, in the Qur'an. Loose and strict terms are only with you and not in the Qur'an.
It is an insult to your intelligence in not understand the concepts of 'strict versus loose' exists in the whole of reality and that including the Quran [regardless whether it is true or false].


Quote:
The Quran made it very clear in 49:14 the difference between believe [strict] and believe [loose].
Quote:
The Qur'an made clear who were liars when claiming to believe. The Qur'an made it clear that they did not believe in (or performed if you like) even one of the six pillars but were falsely claiming to do so.

They had not believed at all. Who were they submitting to?
The Quran never state the wandering Arabs were liars, they were merely ignorant of the difference between believe [strict] and believe [loose].
49:17 confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims.
Logically as Muslims they have submitted to Allah.

Quote:
The problem here is that a kafir thinks he knows Islam better than a Muslim in this forum. A Muslim is using precise terms and the kafir is using his loose and imagined strict terms that he is familiar with outside Islam. As his terms can't be superimposed on the precise terms of the Qur'an, it is a real problem for him.
This show your desperation in resorting to derogatory and dehumanizing terms.

I have argued my point critically, analytically and objective which the same as all the many Islamic scholars I have read so far.

Mine is not the only personal view. I have listed various linked from Islamic scholars even from the 'freeminds' and 'submitters' who agree with me, i.e. the mu'min [strict] is more advance than Muslim [strict] plus my interpretation of 49:14 & 17.

You are one of the two in the world I know who have a shallow understanding of the difference between Muslim and mu'min.
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Old 04-10-2016, 02:41 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
All acts are orders of your master. Every time you obey any order, you are submitting your will to the will of your master. Disobeying any order of the master will get you punish because you did not do submission to your master this time. So you have to keep submitting with each order.
Once a slave has submitted to his master at the point when owned, the slave is in a permanent state of submission. There is no need to resubmit or keep submitting to the master because it is technically a default and obvious.
If a slave did not obey the master, the master can punish the slave because the slave in a state of permanent submission by virtue of his initiation submission of to his master. Disobeying the master one or few times do not remove the condition of the original and permanent submission.

A slave is not in a state of submission if the slave is freed.
Even if a slave has escape, the slave is still under the condition to submission to the master due to the original agreement.

The relation between a believer and his God follows the same principles as above albeit in a slightly different form. In the case of God, a believer can terminate his covenant and submission. The exception is in some Hadiths which do not allow it and sanction the killing of apostates.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Once a slave has submitted to his master at the point when owned, the slave is in a permanent state of submission. There is no need to resubmit or keep submitting to the master because it is technically a default and obvious.
If a slave did not obey the master, the master can punish the slave because the slave in a state of permanent submission by virtue of his initiation submission of to his master. Disobeying the master one or few times do not remove the condition of the original and permanent submission.

A slave is not in a state of submission if the slave is freed.
Even if a slave has escape, the slave is still under the condition to submission to the master due to the original agreement.

The relation between a believer and his God follows the same principles as above albeit in a slightly different form. In the case of God, a believer can terminate his covenant and submission. The exception is in some Hadiths which do not allow it and sanction the killing of apostates.

Using analogies submitting to a Master in Slavery is like being locked onboard a train. You are going to go wherever the train goes no matter what choice you make.

Submission to Allaah(swt) is like walking down a path and facing a Y in the road every mile or so with one path leading to Jannah and the other leading to Jahannam.


Our submission is our consistently choosing the path to Jannah (Jihad) in spite of all the trials and temptations for us to do otherwise. This is the true Jihad every Human internally faces all through life.

We do not have the concept of once saved always saved. As long as we are alive we have the choice of Jannah or Jahannam.
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Using analogies submitting to a Master in Slavery is like being locked onboard a train. You are going to go wherever the train goes no matter what choice you make.

Submission to Allaah(swt) is like walking down a path and facing a Y in the road every mile or so with one path leading to Jannah and the other leading to Jahannam.


Our submission is our consistently choosing the path to Jannah (Jihad) in spite of all the trials and temptations for us to do otherwise. This is the true Jihad every Human internally faces all through life.

We do not have the concept of once saved always saved. As long as we are alive we have the choice of Jannah or Jahannam.
You got this concept of submission wrong with the topic of spirituality and religiosity.

Submission follows from the following general principle;

1. All humans faced an inherent psychological existential desperations.
2. With 1 as a reality, the majority fall [subliminally] into despairs, anxieties and hopelessness.
3. Because of hopelessness and when one sense one is fallible, one will seek solution to deal with this hopelessness from an external source.
4. The only so called all powerful external source who has promised salvation to this hopelessness is God.
5. To get salvation as promised one must SUBMIT and surrender to God who will deliver his promise.
6. Once one has submitted and performed what is expected from God, one will be saved as guaranteed.

Allah in the Quran has promised ALL Muslim will be saved from eternal hell and s/he will be delivered [subject to timing and status] to Paradise without exception.

The above psychological principle is the same for all theistic religion.

The only problem to humanity is where Islam included evil laden verses in its holy texts that triggered SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. The evidence for this is very glaring.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only problem to humanity is where Islam included evil laden verses in its holy texts that triggered SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. The evidence for this is very glaring.
That can't be true unless there was no problem for humanity before Islam published its text.
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Old 04-12-2016, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That can't be true unless there was no problem for humanity before Islam published its text.
To show that the Qur'an inspires violence a person has to show that violence increased among the Arabs after they accepted Islam.
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