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Old 03-31-2016, 01:53 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Exposed: UK School Promoting Extreme Islam
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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From the Link

Quote:
Mufti Zubair Dudha, the centre's founder and head, is a respected cleric from the orthodox Deobandi sect which is thought to control half of all mosques and madrasas in the UK.
The first thing non-Muslims need to comprehend. There is no Central "Islam" there is no joining Islam. Every person that says they are Muslim are considered to be Muslim. While we are not supposed to divide into sects, there are many groups world wide each claiming to be Muslim. The result being there are many differences between people that call them self Muslim

Yes a large percentage of people in the UK that call themself Muslim are Deobandi or Barelvi
Neither of which are considered to be Muslims by Orthodox Muslims. They are heresies that developed in Pakistan they vary considerably from the majority of Muslims. they are far from being Orthodox and presently very large populations of both are in the UK. and the remainder are in Pakistan.



Here is some information about them:

First the differences between the 2 as both are very similar:

Quote:
Barelvi Islam
How they differ from Orthodox Muslims

Deobandis and Barelvis are the two major groups of Muslims in the Subcontinent apart from the Shia. Barelvi Hanafis deem Deobandis to be kaafir. Those hostile to the Barelvis deprecated them as the shrine-worshipping, the grave-worshiping, ignorant Barelvis. Much smaller sects in Pakistan include the Ahl-e-Hadees and Ahl-e-Tashee. The non-Pakhtun population of Pakistan is predominantly Barelvi. The stronghold of Barelvism remains Punjab, the largest province of Pakistan. By one estimate, in Pakistan, the Shias are 18%, ismailis 2%, Ahmediyas 2%, Barelvis 50%, Deobandis 20%, Ahle Hadith 4%, and other minorities 4%. The Ahle-e-Hadith is a small group of Sunni Muslims in India who do not consider themselves bound by any particular school of law and rely directly on the Prophet's Sunnah. By another estimate some 15 per cent of Pakistan's Sunni Muslims would consider themselves Deobandi, and some 60 per cent, are in the Barelvi tradition based mostly in the province of Punjab. But some 64 per cent of the total seminaries are run by Deobandis, 25 per cent by the Barelvis, six percent by the Ahle Hadith and three percent by various Shiite organisations.

Barelvi Islam

Praise be to Allaah.

The Bareilawis are an extreme Sufi sect that appeared in the Indo-Pakistani subcontinent, in the city of Bareilly, in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh during the days of British colonialism.

The basic principles of their misguided, deviant teachings are based on exaggeration about the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and the members of his household, exaggeration about the righteous, enmity towards Ahl as-Sunnah, and diverting the people away from jihad for the sake of Allah.

The founder of this sect was called Ahmad Reza Khan Taqiy ‘Ali Khan; he called himself ‘Abd al-Mustafa.

He was one of the misguided extremists. He used to say: “When you are confused, seek help from the occupants of the graves.”

In his extreme exaggeration about the Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), he said: “The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is in control everywhere; he is the king of earth and the sovereign of mankind.”
https://islamqa.info/en/150265

point that remains to be clarified is – why is the attitude of the Ahle Sunnah scholars, so severe against the Deobandi sect? There are a number of reasons for it – they must be read and understood with a cool mind.

Reason # 1 - Their Infidelity

The first and foremost reason is the infidelities and blasphemies of the Deobandi scholars – these are actually the fundamental differences – these heretic beliefs are written in their books and are ingrained in the hearts of the Deobandis.

Reason # 2 - Difficulty in Identification

As far as actions are concerned, they too call themselves Hanafi, and apparently they offer Salaah (prayer) as we do. Their call of Salaah, Salaah of Eid etc. is the same as ours. In short, there are no outward signs with which the simple Muslims can identify/recognise them. There is every possibility that simple Muslims will misunderstand them. Therefore it was necessary that the beliefs of the Deobandi School be presented clearly to the masses, in order that there is no difficulty in identifying them.

As far as Shias are concerned, their call for prayers, their mode of prayer etc., are vastly different from that of Sunnis – they are easily identifiable. The same is the case of the Non-Abiders (Ghayr Muqallid). Their compulsory prayers, Witr prayers, Taraweeh and Eid prayers clearly warn others that they have different beliefs. Therefore the need to warn people of such deviated sects is not as urgent as is the need to educate them about the deviant Deobandis.

Reason # 3 - Their Methods of Corrupting the Faith of Sunni Masses

They are very good impostors. By entering the ranks of our Sunni masses, and impersonating to be on our side, they bring people close to them through various tricks - and when they deduce that they have been successful in doing so, they inculcate respect and adoration in their hearts for the elders of the Deoband School. Thereafter they change them to such an extent that they begin to abhor all the beliefs and customs, which were dear to them like their faith - and consider them polytheism and heresy! Within a few days, their hearts get sealed with such wretchedness that they are not prepared to listen to any reference either from the Qur’an or Hadith. It should be noted very clearly that I am not writing this from imagination. Rather these are our daily observations.

In such circumstances, there is no other way left to save the simple masses from going astray from the Straight Path followed by the Beloved Prophet şallAllāhu álayhi wa sallam and the saints, but to educate them about the filthy beliefs of the Deobandi sect, and their deceits and fraud.

Reason # 4 – The Hypocrisy of the Deobandi Sect

Going through the traits of Deobandi sect, it becomes very clear that they are truly the inheritors of the traits of the hypocrites mentioned in the Holy Qur’an. For instance, the hypocrites were double-faced. One face was meant for their own group whilst the other was for the honourable Muslim Companions of the Beloved Prophet şallAllāhu álayhi wa sallam. The Holy Qur’an has narrated this trait of theirs in the following words: -

And when they meet with the believers, they say, “We believe”; and when they are alone with their devils, they say, “We are undoubtedly with you, we were just mocking!”

Reasons for a Strict Stance against the Deobandi sect
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The first thing non-Muslims need to comprehend. There is no Central "Islam" there is no joining Islam. Every person that says they are Muslim are considered to be Muslim. While we are not supposed to divide into sects, there are many groups world wide each claiming to be Muslim. The result being there are many differences between people that call them self Muslim

Yes a large percentage of people in the UK that call themself Muslim are Deobandi or Barelvi
Neither of which are considered to be Muslims by Orthodox Muslims. They are heresies that developed in Pakistan they vary considerably from the majority of Muslims. they are far from being Orthodox and presently very large populations of both are in the UK. and the remainder are in Pakistan.
1. Islam is solely represented by the Quran.
Adherents of Islam are Muslim [loose term].
Therefore any one who comply with the Quran is a Muslim.

The Deobandi or Barelvi explicitly claim they comply with the Quran, therefore they are Muslims.
As you have said, there is no Central "Islam" thus no central authority to decide who is a Muslim or not Muslim.
Therefore the Orthodox Muslims even though they are the majority do not have any divine right to judge any one who comply with the Quran is or is not a Muslim.

The point to assess whether a Muslim [loose term] is an apostate is when he has committed an unpardonable sin, e.g. assign a partner, son to Allah.
Respecting past great Muslims in Shrine and Graves worshipping is not a sin because they did not dilute or divide the power of Allah. Those great Muslims of the past during their life on Earth were submissive to Allah as Muslims.

The Deobandi or Barelvi explicitly claim they comply with the Quran, therefore they are Muslims.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:40 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. Islam is solely represented by the Quran.
Adherents of Islam are Muslim [loose term].
Therefore any one who comply with the Quran is a Muslim.
You slipped badly here!!!

Quote:
The Deobandi or Barelvi explicitly claim they comply with the Quran, therefore they are Muslims.
Even the terrorist claim that they comply with the Qur'an.

You are agreeing with these people in your ignorance about what is meant by complying with the Qur'an. Everyone who believes to be in a sect is not complying with the Qur'an.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:05 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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And again, isn't this the problem - because of so many schisms and interpretations - Muslims all the time, are denying that other Muslims are real Muslims.
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
And again, isn't this the problem - because of so many schisms and interpretations - Muslims all the time, are denying that other Muslims are real Muslims.
As Islam is not an organization or a Church or a religion with ordained clergy one has to avoid the concept of membership in something. I Muslim is not a Muslim because they join Islam, there is no joining. They are Muslim because they perform the action of Islam. No Mosque, clergy, dogma etc required. We can can do so in the privacy of our home. The Mosque is simply a fancy shelter to keep us out of the rain. A person can not be excommunicated from Islam, because nobody "Joins" or belongs to Islam. It is not a specific group or or organization.

With that said the problem comes when people believe they belong to a group called Islam. Many Muslims have come to like the idea of how churches are organized have trained clergy and joining requirements and seem to try to do this with "Clubs,groups, gangs, etc) That is not doing the act of Islam they are sheeple trying to imitate organized religions.

If a person does not know how to be a Muslim in the quite solitude of any place they choose, they will not know how to perform Islam in the grandest Mosque.

While people can follow guidelines (Khalif will probably disagree with me--he does not seem to like madhabs) such as a Madhab. But that does not mean they join a Madhab. I try to follow the guidelines of the Hanafi Madhab and usually call myself a Hanafi with some influence from Sufi but I do not belong to a group called Hanafi.


Now as to who is a Muslim? We have no way to prove who is or is not a Muslim. We each can only explain why we believe someone is or is not performing Islam. Even if we believe a person is not performing Islam we still can not say they are not Muslim. They may be performing Islam in their thoughts and intentions, which are not visible.

But as you can see that when a person attempts to organize Islam into a single group with a leader all Hell breaks loose look at Saudi, Iran, ISI etc. We are not a group we are not under the central leadership of any living person we are simply 1.7 billion individuals doing what we believe is the performing of Islam
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum:

1. Islam is solely represented by the Quran.
2. Adherents of Islam are Muslim [loose term].
3. Therefore any one who comply with the Quran is a Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You slipped badly here!!!
You are fond of throwing and spewing your own claims without justification.
Prove where I am wrong in the above statement.

Quote:
Even the terrorist claim that they comply with the Qur'an.
If the "terrorists" had declared and affirmed the Shahada, they are Muslims.
If they pray in accordance to the Quran, they are complying with the Quran.

If the Quran stated do X and they acted X, then they have complied with the Quran.

Btw, what authority do you have to insist those who had declared the Shahada and proceed to carry out the 5 pillars of Islam and pillars of eeman are not Muslims.

Quote:
You are agreeing with these people in your ignorance about what is meant by complying with the Qur'an. Everyone who believes to be in a sect is not complying with the Qur'an.
It is not that I am agreeing with them.

I am making an objective assessment whether they are Muslims or if any one is a Muslim or not.
I have defined who is a Muslim.
Thus any one who fit that definition is a Muslim regardless of whether he is called a saint, a good man, an evil man or a terrorist. [YOU don't have any divine authority to decide otherwise].
Therefore, how one is named or labelled is not critical, what is critical is whether the person[s] has entered into a covenant with Allah and carry out the commands as in the Quran.

The members of ISIS do not believe themselves to be a member of a sect.
Even if they really are a sect it is not a great sin in accordance to the Quran.

The terrorists are not necessary perfect Muslims but they are nevertheless Muslims [in general]. They may have committed sins but these sins are not serious or unpardonable ones.
The other Muslims befriend non-Muslims and partner with non-Muslims and this is a sin in accordance to many such verses in the Quran. The jihadists cut off complete friendship and partnering non-Muslims, therefore they have complied with the Quran in his particular contexts in their view to please Allah.

I NEVER agree with nor condone the jihadists' evil act.
My point is the Quran [in part, not whole] is evil and contain evil elements that trigger SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

Therefore the effective root cause and main focus should be on the evil laden elements in the Quran while the other factors are secondary.
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are fond of throwing and spewing your own claims without justification.
Prove where I am wrong in the above statement.

If the "terrorists" had declared and affirmed the Shahada, they are Muslims.
If they pray in accordance to the Quran, they are complying with the Quran.

If the Quran stated do X and they acted X, then they have complied with the Quran.

Btw, what authority do you have to insist those who had declared the Shahada and proceed to carry out the 5 pillars of Islam and pillars of eeman are not Muslims.

It is not that I am agreeing with them.

I am making an objective assessment whether they are Muslims or if any one is a Muslim or not.
I have defined who is a Muslim.
Thus any one who fit that definition is a Muslim regardless of whether he is called a saint, a good man, an evil man or a terrorist. [YOU don't have any divine authority to decide otherwise].
Therefore, how one is named or labelled is not critical, what is critical is whether the person[s] has entered into a covenant with Allah and carry out the commands as in the Quran.

The members of ISIS do not believe themselves to be a member of a sect.
Even if they really are a sect it is not a great sin in accordance to the Quran.

The terrorists are not necessary perfect Muslims but they are nevertheless Muslims [in general]. They may have committed sins but these sins are not serious or unpardonable ones.
The other Muslims befriend non-Muslims and partner with non-Muslims and this is a sin in accordance to many such verses in the Quran. The jihadists cut off complete friendship and partnering non-Muslims, therefore they have complied with the Quran in his particular contexts in their view to please Allah.

I NEVER agree with nor condone the jihadists' evil act.
My point is the Quran [in part, not whole] is evil and contain evil elements that trigger SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

Therefore the effective root cause and main focus should be on the evil laden elements in the Quran while the other factors are secondary.
They do consider them selves members of ISIS and they do seem to consider al-Bahagdadi to be a Caliph (Which is a religious leader)
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