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Old 04-06-2016, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I doubt if many Muslims will consider important as to which Ayyat was frevealed first and which was revealed last. If it was important we would have been told.

AlsoMuhammad(saws) never wrote as much as one word of the Qur'an he was illiterate and could not read or write. Also Arabic was still in it's formative years as a written language. The had not yet been a standardized alphabet, no punctuation marks and

Many people often wonder why there is so much duplication in the Qur'an everything in the Qur'an has been revealed at least 3 times and at different times. In Mbghecca alone it was revealed in different formats, but the same Message to the Jews and Christians and also to the Mushikrun (Idolators)

The Qur'an contains a single central message that being :"There is only one God, only He is to be Worshiped." The Qur'an is not an instruction manual, it is a guide to help us fully understand that simple Message. That message has been given to every people of every Nations and people have constantly messed it up. The Qur'n is the last time it will be revealed and it is our last chance to get it right. The timing of the last words revealed to Muhammad(saws) are of no concern as the message they convey was repeated multiple times earlier.
I would argue that there are many Muslims who believe in the doctrine of abrogation, and therefore chronology is extremely important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Spoiler
No. Not quite like that.

The message of the Qur'an was inspired by God to Muhammad only, who was instructed to deliver to the people. It was written down by other people in front of Muhammad who dictated it word by word as he himself had received it. These verses were then kept in the written form by several people. The same verses were also memorized by several people present. This process had carried on for just over 22 years until the completion of the revelation of the whole Qur'an.

The difference with Christians being inspired is that the authors of the Gospels were writing them from their memory and other reports not in front of Jesus but after Jesus had gone. Th Gospls are like stories being told by the authors with some words of Jesus. It is the words of Jesus that we believe were inspired by God and Jesus had preached. Injeel mentioned in the Qur'an is Evangel (Preachings) of Jesus. This was not written down immediately in front of Jesus unlike the Qur'an that was written down in front of Muhammad.

Yes. The only consensus is that the verse 5:3, in which is the last law revealed and it describes as God completing His favour upon the believers and perfecting "islam". Immediately after the revelation of this verse, prophet Muhammad had delivered a sermon in the plains of Arafat saying that he may not be with the people again next year. From that, we understand that his mission was coming to an end and the verses revealed there were either the last ones or very nearly the last ones. No other Islamic law was revealed after 5:3.

Yes, in my opinion either the last ones or very close to the last ones.

2:278, 2:281, 2:282.

I have mentioned the posibilities in my opinion.
Thank you again for a very thorough response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Spoiler
I believe it is not very accurate if we were to search for the last 10-20 verses.

For Muslims it is obvious they accept the existing order of the present Quran as divinely authorized. Because Allah will never be around to confirm such an order, it would be a waste of time to debate this point.

However to be realistic, the chronological order is critical.
The chronological order can be estimated from the following basis;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.

I won't go into the details of the above as it is quite a bit to write;

Based on the above I think Noldelke order would come close to it;

from the first to the fifth year of Mohammed's mission
96, 74, 111, 106, 108, 104, 107, 102, 105, 92,
90, 94, 93, 97, 86, 91, 80, 68, 87, 95,
103, 85, 73, 101, 99, 82, 81, 53, 84, 100,
79, 77, 78, 88, 89, 75, 83, 69, 51, 52,
56, 70, 55, 112, 109, 113, 114, 1

the fifth and sixth year of his mission:
54, 37, 71, 76, 44, 50, 20, 26, 15, 19,
38, 36, 43, 72, 67, 23, 21, 25, 17, 27, 18

from the seventh year to Hijra:
32, 41, 45, 16, 30, 11, 14, 12, 40, 28,
39, 29, 31, 42, 10, 34, 35, 7, 46, 6, 13

The 30 suras of the Medinan period, according to Noldeke (chronologically 91-114):
2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 22, 24, 33, 47, 48, 49, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 76, 98, 110

Personally taking into account of human nature and psychology, I would rearrange some of the Medinan chapters to the following order;
2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 66, 60, 110, 49, 5, 9,

I think there are many who would agree with most of this assessment concerning chronology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above are not assumptions.

Excluding the God factor there is real chronicity with the present Quran with its historical background and human nature.
Muhammad was human and has to live within an environment chronologically till he died.
Therefore based on the above reality, we made an attempt to estimate the best chronological order.

To start with the best approach is to determine the chronological order of the chapters.
Where the chapters contain verses related to different time, then we take them out and place them in their respective chronological order - no problem with that.
If you agree there are chapters which contain verses of different time, you are acknowledge the very possibility that the Quran was compiled by human. This open the possibility the Quran was authored by human[s] not Allah.

I don't think it is critical to find the last verse and that is impossible given the Quran as it is.

What is critical is to establish the best estimated chronological order of the chapters with adjustments for some verses to be shifted to their relevant chronological order and taking into account the following elements;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.
6. Others -(to be advised)

From the above, we will be able to understand why different Muslims are driven to behave the way they are and why SOME evil prone are committing terrible evils and violence when influenced and inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.
I think the bolded part is the key to really understanding what is driving the extremists.

If the chronology can be ascertained, and if one believes that at the very end of his life Muhammed gave explicit instructions for jihad, then it would make sense. After all if it was Muhammed's last instructions, and nothing can now abrogate THAT, so essentially we have a never ending jihad commanded by Muhammed.

That the Muslim aggression towards the Christian nations of Europe began almost immediately following his death is no mere coincidence.

While it may certainly be true that this is not factual, what is factual is that it appears to be what the extremists believe, and for that reason it is important to evaluate and understand more thoroughly.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:45 AM
 
4,419 posts, read 1,647,307 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
Since the Qur'an is not in chronological order it isn't so easy a question to answer, especially for the non Muslim.

So I ask any of you Muslims here to help get an understanding as to what were the "final" instructions from Muhammad?

Can we get a list maybe of the last 10-20 verses written by Muhammad?
As Woodrow said, chronological order of Quranic verses is really not much of a concern for many Muslims. It's the message and guidance that one should try to live by, that's important.

Alternately, you may want to read the last sermon given by prophet (saw). Hopefully, you will find it interesting.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
I would argue that there are many Muslims who believe in the doctrine of abrogation, and therefore chronology is extremely important.



Thank you again for a very thorough response.





I think there are many who would agree with most of this assessment concerning chronology.



I think the bolded part is the key to really understanding what is driving the extremists.

If the chronology can be ascertained, and if one believes that at the very end of his life Muhammed gave explicit instructions for jihad, then it would make sense. After all if it was Muhammed's last instructions, and nothing can now abrogate THAT, so essentially we have a never ending jihad commanded by Muhammed.

That the Muslim aggression towards the Christian nations of Europe began almost immediately following his death is no mere coincidence.

While it may certainly be true that this is not factual, what is factual is that it appears to be what the extremists believe, and for that reason it is important to evaluate and understand more thoroughly.
In the 7ty Century the Christian conquest of Europe was just beginning. Europe was not Christianized until after it was conquered by the Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne in the 9th Century. At about the Same time the Moors settled the Southern Portion of The Iberian Peninsula and formed the Nation of Andalusia. (They did not conquer Spain as the Nation of Spain had not yet formed. There would be no nation of Spain until after the Roman Catholic Castilians conquered the Islamic Nation of Andalusia in the Southern Portion of the Iberian Peninsula.

Historically the spread of Islam was Eastward and that was Peaceful. Hardly even makes the history books as it was not spread by war. Yet nearly3/4 of all Muslims areAsiatic. Islam spread eastward as a Religion, there was no Eastward Conquest of occupation by Muslim, the populations converted to Islam.

most Muslims do not believe there was any abrogation of the Qur'an as there was no removal of any ayyats and every ayyat is still valid.The Medina Surat did not replace the Mecca surat (Surat is the Plural of Surah which is mistakenly translated as Chapter) Part of the confusion comes because the word Naskh is often translated into English as Abrogation, but it is not quite the same as abrogation.

Naskh relates more to Sunnah and Shariah than to the Qur'an. Typically Naskh added to a previous Surah without rmoving or changing the previous. It is a bit confusing especially when one is stuck thinking of Naskh as a broad definition of Abrogation.

There are 5 versus in which Naskh is clearing indicated.

A good example of Naskh

Quote:
IbIbn Taymiyyah wrote, “Sometimes the salaf used the word Naskh (abrogation) to indicate that certain implications of the verse in question stood abrogated and not the verse itself. For instance, they said that the verse: ‘Fear Allah, as He should be feared,’ is abrogated by the verse, ‘Fear Allah to the extent possible,’ when we know that there is no contradiction between the two. What they meant, therefore, is that only a certain sense of the first verse stands abrogated by the second. One may assume that by the verse, ‘Fear Allah in the manner He should be feared,’ one is being burdened with what was beyond his capacity. The second verse corrected this understanding and explained that he ought to fear Him “to the extent possible.” Thanwi added that the salaf also used the term Naskh where one verse explained another. This should explain why some of the Companions believed a certain verse stood abrogated, while others maintained that it was not.
Abrogation
Naskh is not the invalidating of an earlier ayyat, by a newer ayyat. It is a clarification of an earlier ayyat.

Quote:
ntroduction

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam
Quote:

Are the verses of the Qur'an Substituted?
OR
The earlier revelations are Substituted
by the later revelations?

3. The word "aayatin" in the verse under study (2: 106), translated as "Our revelations" is used to denote the "total revelations of Allah" that have come to mankind. In other words it includes Allah's Messages that were conveyed in the earlier books as well as the final Message revealed by Him in the Qur'an.

4. In his commentary, Yusuf Ali explains the term "aayatin" as under:

What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means that God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad.
Are the verses of the Qur'an Abrogated and/or Subtituted?
nearly all of the "Abrogation" come from the interpretations of the anti-Islam wb site. But, too be fair many Islamic scholars help perpetuate the error by translating Naskh as abrogation.

Quick summation: The Medinah revelations do not render the peaceful Mecca revelations invalid. Muslims are still to be guided by them and we have not been given permission to Kill apostates, simply be cause of apostasy, We are not to harm or harass non-Muslims simply because they disagree with us, What was taught at Mecca is still true.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
I would argue that there are many Muslims who believe in the doctrine of abrogation, and therefore chronology is extremely important.
I don't believe that ANY verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. Each verse still applies. The challenge is to reconcile each verse on the same issue. Those who can't reconcile them, due to their own inability, tend to find an easy way out of their ignorance; so and so ayat were abrogated. If one asks them how many verses in the Qur'an are abrogated each such person will have a different number.

Chronology is not important. Having mixed verses is better because it makes a serious student of the Qur'an to find and understand all the verses on the same issue.

Quote:
I think the bolded part is the key to really understanding what is driving the extremists.
It is certainly not the key. Although some extremists do use verses out of context, it is not those verses that drive them but politics and injustice against Muslims in the Middle East. Palestine and Iraq/Afghanistan invasions have been driving the extremists. The extremists have even made so quite clear. Verses out of context are used for a different purpose; to recruit more to be extremists.

Quote:
If the chronology can be ascertained, and if one believes that at the very end of his life Muhammed gave explicit instructions for jihad, then it would make sense. After all if it was Muhammed's last instructions, and nothing can now abrogate THAT, so essentially we have a never ending jihad commanded by Muhammed.
Jihad is quite misunderstood in the West. In Islam, there are two types of jihad; major and minor. The minor is fighting back when attacked. The major is fighting one's own evil potential with good potential. It is called jihad against Self (the evil side of one's Self).

The way the Western politicians have presented jihad, it is an utter ignorance. Every extreme action of a Muslim or every criminal act of a Muslim is presented as jihad from that Muslim.

Quote:
That the Muslim aggression towards the Christian nations of Europe began almost immediately following his death is no mere coincidence.
Actually permission to fight (fighting in defence) was given 7 years before Muhammad passed away. There are a few verses against unbelievers (the Meccan infidels) about two years before his passing away that tells Muslims to kill them but it never happened. Once Muslims got to Mecca and could have killed them all but did not. As for crusades against Muslims, it began a long time ago. The last declared one was by G. W. Bush in 2003. All hell has broken ever since Iraq invasion.
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Surat(Chapters) are labelled Mecca or Medinah in accordance with were ayyat one of each was revealed. ,however ayyat one is not always the first revealed in a surah.

Surat 2 is a good example of this. 2:1 was not the first revealed. The Last Ayyats 284-286 were revealed early in Mecca as a prayer., and were the first ayyats of al-Baqerah revealed.

But at the Same time 2:1 is a direct reply to Ayyat 1:7 which makes it logical to have al-Baqerah immediatly follow al-Fatiha.

The Surah were sorted by name. the name of each surah is taken from a word contained in a surah that is unique for the surah or has significance to the Surah. Baqerah is in the discourse that runs from 40-120i specifically in the sub-discourse of 67-73 So we can be reasonably certain that discourse was one of the first revealed in Surah 2.

While al-Baqerah is classified as Medinah because the first discourse in context ayyats 1-20 were revealed during the Medinah era.but it does seem many perhaps most of the 10 discourses that make up al-Baqerah were revealed during the Mecca era.

All of the long Surah seem to have had the first Discourse beginning with the first ayyat of the surah, added during the Medinah era, but many of the discourses in the Surah having been revealed in Mecca.

The only Surat that seem to have been revealed at single locations are the very short Meccan ones.
In reality the Quran was most likely compiled by a group of people for some political purpose to control the masses.
Because humans are fallible, therefore errors and confusions are likely to arise in the compilations.
Therefore if there are good reasons to believe certain verses related to different phase of time, then we can rearrange them to the best of our knowledge.

From another perspective, I don't believe Chapter 2 were revealed in different locations.
Chapter 2 is more like a summary of the Meccan chapters plus some new Medinian elements as guides to the followers to regroup. This is why Chapter 2 contain Meccan elements and Medinian elements.

If there are Meccan elements in the subsequent Medinian chapters, they are likely to be items that are repeated to reinforce the various points.

The core theme and trend from the Mecca and to the Medina chapters of the Quran is represented by the changes of Muhammad's psychology from a milder to a very aggressive person of wrath to non-Muslims which is full blown in chapter 9.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
I think there are many who would agree with most of this assessment concerning chronology.

I think the bolded part is the key to really understanding what is driving the extremists.

If the chronology can be ascertained, and if one believes that at the very end of his life Muhammed gave explicit instructions for jihad, then it would make sense. After all if it was Muhammed's last instructions, and nothing can now abrogate THAT, so essentially we have a never ending jihad commanded by Muhammed.

That the Muslim aggression towards the Christian nations of Europe began almost immediately following his death is no mere coincidence.

While it may certainly be true that this is not factual, what is factual is that it appears to be what the extremists believe, and for that reason it is important to evaluate and understand more thoroughly.
I posted this point in the earlier post;

"The core theme and trend from the Mecca and to the Medina chapters of the Quran is represented by the changes of Muhammad's psychology from a milder to a very aggressive person of wrath to non-Muslims which is full blown in chapter 9."

I have done extensive research on cults.
All religions started as cults and their cultish elements are forgotten in time and when they have a larger following, they get polished to become a mainstream religion.

If we were to compare the pattern of the psychological elements inherent in the Quran, one will note a lot of similarities in psychological patterns with many of the cults of history, the standard pattern, i.e.

1. A charismatic person has experiences of altered states of consciousness and believe they are some kind of [chosen] agent of God.
2. The charismatic person manage to convince a group of followers.
3. The following expand in numbers and grows and a cult is formed with its charismatic leader.
4. The cults teachings and/or arrogance insults and offend other existing religions or society.
5. The cults faced opposition and threats
6. The leaders led his follower to emigrate/escape harassments and threats to underground, a foreign location or a place far from normal society.
7. The cult will continue to proselytize.
8. The cult engages in various forms of violence and evils.

The above pattern are existed for the following cults,

1. Reverend Jim Jones and the People Temple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
Reverend Jim Jones and his cult migrated to Guyana and ended with violence and evils.

2. Adi Da - Adi Da Samraj, born Franklin Albert Jones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Da
Migrated to a private Island Fiji.
Involve with various sort of evils.

3. David Koresh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh
Hiding in Waco and ended with violence

4. Joseph Smith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith
Migrated to Utah
Involved with a range of evil deeds.

There are many more of the likes, e.g. Rajneesh, Moonies, Shoko Asahara, etc.

Muhammad's cult followed the above pattern but the difference was Muhammad's cults gained strength via aggression of his time, imperialism, force, threats amongst weak oppositions and in time became a mainstream religions and the evil ethos got covered up on the surface.

However the ethos of the original cult in still inherent in the Quran and this martial and aggressive ethos trigger SOME [not all] Muslim to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even other Muslims deemed as infidels.
Now this hypothesis is not mere speculation but it is proven by the glaring evidence of terrible evils and violence committed around the world by SOME evil prone Muslims.

The majority of Muslims who hanged [by the skin of their teeth] on the soteriological elements of the religion are by default has to be blind to the negative ethos of the religion.
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