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Old 04-05-2016, 11:16 AM
 
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Since the Qur'an is not in chronological order it isn't so easy a question to answer, especially for the non Muslim.

So I ask any of you Muslims here to help get an understanding as to what were the "final" instructions from Muhammad?

Can we get a list maybe of the last 10-20 verses written by Muhammad?
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Old 04-05-2016, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
Since the Qur'an is not in chronological order it isn't so easy a question to answer, especially for the non Muslim.

So I ask any of you Muslims here to help get an understanding as to what were the "final" instructions from Muhammad?

Can we get a list maybe of the last 10-20 verses written by Muhammad?
This is just to point out that we, Muslims, do not believe that Muhammad wrote any verses of the Qur'an. His duty was only to deliver the message (5:99, 29:18) as he received it word by word.

As for the last verses revealed, there is no clear consensus. It is widely believed that the 5:3 is one of the last if not the last verses revealed in which is the last law revealed. Just as 96:1-5 are the first verses revealed, 5:1-5 could well be the last verses revealed. Other last verses revealed could be 2:278-283.
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is just to point out that we, Muslims, do not believe that Muhammad wrote any verses of the Qur'an. His duty was only to deliver the message (5:99, 29:18) as he received it word by word.

As for the last verses revealed, there is no clear consensus. It is widely believed that the 5:3 is one of the last if not the last verses revealed in which is the last law revealed. Just as 96:1-5 are the first verses revealed, 5:1-5 could well be the last verses revealed. Other last verses revealed could be 2:278-283.

So then it was "inspired" as the Christians believe their Bible to be. Written by men, but really the hand of God doing the writing. Like that?


When you say "no clear consensus" I am going to assume that some suggest one thing and others believe something else.

Would you say that 5:1-5 is likely the last revealed verses? At least in YOUR opinion? Thank you for that.

What other verses are mentioned by people who believe differently? Might you share those as well?

Surely there are only a handful of possibilities, even if a clear consensus cannot be reached.
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Old 04-05-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
So then it was "inspired" as the Christians believe their Bible to be. Written by men, but really the hand of God doing the writing. Like that?


When you say "no clear consensus" I am going to assume that some suggest one thing and others believe something else.

Would you say that 5:1-5 is likely the last revealed verses? At least in YOUR opinion? Thank you for that.

What other verses are mentioned by people who believe differently? Might you share those as well?

Surely there are only a handful of possibilities, even if a clear consensus cannot be reached.
I doubt if many Muslims will consider important as to which Ayyat was frevealed first and which was revealed last. If it was important we would have been told.

AlsoMuhammad(saws) never wrote as much as one word of the Qur'an he was illiterate and could not read or write. Also Arabic was still in it's formative years as a written language. The had not yet been a standardized alphabet, no punctuation marks and

Many people often wonder why there is so much duplication in the Qur'an everything in the Qur'an has been revealed at least 3 times and at different times. In Mbghecca alone it was revealed in different formats, but the same Message to the Jews and Christians and also to the Mushikrun (Idolators)

The Qur'an contains a single central message that being :"There is only one God, only He is to be Worshiped." The Qur'an is not an instruction manual, it is a guide to help us fully understand that simple Message. That message has been given to every people of every Nations and people have constantly messed it up. The Qur'n is the last time it will be revealed and it is our last chance to get it right. The timing of the last words revealed to Muhammad(saws) are of no concern as the message they convey was repeated multiple times earlier.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
So then it was "inspired" as the Christians believe their Bible to be. Written by men, but really the hand of God doing the writing. Like that?
No. Not quite like that.

The message of the Qur'an was inspired by God to Muhammad only, who was instructed to deliver to the people. It was written down by other people in front of Muhammad who dictated it word by word as he himself had received it. These verses were then kept in the written form by several people. The same verses were also memorized by several people present. This process had carried on for just over 22 years until the completion of the revelation of the whole Qur'an.

The difference with Christians being inspired is that the authors of the Gospels were writing them from their memory and other reports not in front of Jesus but after Jesus had gone. Th Gospls are like stories being told by the authors with some words of Jesus. It is the words of Jesus that we believe were inspired by God and Jesus had preached. Injeel mentioned in the Qur'an is Evangel (Preachings) of Jesus. This was not written down immediately in front of Jesus unlike the Qur'an that was written down in front of Muhammad.

Quote:
When you say "no clear consensus" I am going to assume that some suggest one thing and others believe something else.
Yes. The only consensus is that the verse 5:3, in which is the last law revealed and it describes as God completing His favour upon the believers and perfecting "islam". Immediately after the revelation of this verse, prophet Muhammad had delivered a sermon in the plains of Arafat saying that he may not be with the people again next year. From that, we understand that his mission was coming to an end and the verses revealed there were either the last ones or very nearly the last ones. No other Islamic law was revealed after 5:3.

Quote:
Would you say that 5:1-5 is likely the last revealed verses? At least in YOUR opinion? Thank you for that.
Yes, in my opinion either the last ones or very close to the last ones.

Quote:
What other verses are mentioned by people who believe differently? Might you share those as well?
2:278, 2:281, 2:282.

Quote:
Surely there are only a handful of possibilities, even if a clear consensus cannot be reached.
I have mentioned the posibilities in my opinion.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
Since the Qur'an is not in chronological order it isn't so easy a question to answer, especially for the non Muslim.

So I ask any of you Muslims here to help get an understanding as to what were the "final" instructions from Muhammad?

Can we get a list maybe of the last 10-20 verses written by Muhammad?
I believe it is not very accurate if we were to search for the last 10-20 verses.

For Muslims it is obvious they accept the existing order of the present Quran as divinely authorized. Because Allah will never be around to confirm such an order, it would be a waste of time to debate this point.

However to be realistic, the chronological order is critical.
The chronological order can be estimated from the following basis;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.

I won't go into the details of the above as it is quite a bit to write;

Based on the above I think Noldelke order would come close to it;

from the first to the fifth year of Mohammed's mission
96, 74, 111, 106, 108, 104, 107, 102, 105, 92,
90, 94, 93, 97, 86, 91, 80, 68, 87, 95,
103, 85, 73, 101, 99, 82, 81, 53, 84, 100,
79, 77, 78, 88, 89, 75, 83, 69, 51, 52,
56, 70, 55, 112, 109, 113, 114, 1

the fifth and sixth year of his mission:
54, 37, 71, 76, 44, 50, 20, 26, 15, 19,
38, 36, 43, 72, 67, 23, 21, 25, 17, 27, 18

from the seventh year to Hijra:
32, 41, 45, 16, 30, 11, 14, 12, 40, 28,
39, 29, 31, 42, 10, 34, 35, 7, 46, 6, 13

The 30 suras of the Medinan period, according to Noldeke (chronologically 91-114):
2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 22, 24, 33, 47, 48, 49, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 76, 98, 110

Personally taking into account of human nature and psychology, I would rearrange some of the Medinan chapters to the following order;
2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 66, 60, 110, 49, 5, 9,
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe it is not very accurate if we were to search for the last 10-20 verses.

For Muslims it is obvious they accept the existing order of the present Quran as divinely authorized. Because Allah will never be around to confirm such an order, it would be a waste of time to debate this point.

However to be realistic, the chronological order is critical.
The chronological order can be estimated from the following basis;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.

I won't go into the details of the above as it is quite a bit to write;

Based on the above I think Noldelke order would come close to it;

from the first to the fifth year of Mohammed's mission
96, 74, 111, 106, 108, 104, 107, 102, 105, 92,
90, 94, 93, 97, 86, 91, 80, 68, 87, 95,
103, 85, 73, 101, 99, 82, 81, 53, 84, 100,
79, 77, 78, 88, 89, 75, 83, 69, 51, 52,
56, 70, 55, 112, 109, 113, 114, 1

the fifth and sixth year of his mission:
54, 37, 71, 76, 44, 50, 20, 26, 15, 19,
38, 36, 43, 72, 67, 23, 21, 25, 17, 27, 18

from the seventh year to Hijra:
32, 41, 45, 16, 30, 11, 14, 12, 40, 28,
39, 29, 31, 42, 10, 34, 35, 7, 46, 6, 13

The 30 suras of the Medinan period, according to Noldeke (chronologically 91-114):
2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 22, 24, 33, 47, 48, 49, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 76, 98, 110

Personally taking into account of human nature and psychology, I would rearrange some of the Medinan chapters to the following order;
2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 66, 60, 110, 49, 5, 9,
All the above is mere assumption. It is about chapters (Surahs) and not verses at the same time. Many chapters include verses from different times. The longest chapters were not revealed at the same time.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
All the above is mere assumption. It is about chapters (Surahs) and not verses at the same time. Many chapters include verses from different times. The longest chapters were not revealed at the same time.
The above are not assumptions.

Excluding the God factor there is real chronicity with the present Quran with its historical background and human nature.
Muhammad was human and has to live within an environment chronologically till he died.
Therefore based on the above reality, we made an attempt to estimate the best chronological order.

To start with the best approach is to determine the chronological order of the chapters.
Where the chapters contain verses related to different time, then we take them out and place them in their respective chronological order - no problem with that.
If you agree there are chapters which contain verses of different time, you are acknowledge the very possibility that the Quran was compiled by human. This open the possibility the Quran was authored by human[s] not Allah.

I don't think it is critical to find the last verse and that is impossible given the Quran as it is.

What is critical is to establish the best estimated chronological order of the chapters with adjustments for some verses to be shifted to their relevant chronological order and taking into account the following elements;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.
6. Others -(to be advised)

From the above, we will be able to understand why different Muslims are driven to behave the way they are and why SOME evil prone are committing terrible evils and violence when influenced and inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above are not assumptions.

...we made an attempt to estimate the best chronological order.
As usual, you tend to parrot the same in many threads. But I will respond here to what is relevant in his topic.

It is stlll assumption on your part.
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above are not assumptions.

Excluding the God factor there is real chronicity with the present Quran with its historical background and human nature.
Muhammad was human and has to live within an environment chronologically till he died.
Therefore based on the above reality, we made an attempt to estimate the best chronological order.

To start with the best approach is to determine the chronological order of the chapters.
Where the chapters contain verses related to different time, then we take them out and place them in their respective chronological order - no problem with that.
If you agree there are chapters which contain verses of different time, you are acknowledge the very possibility that the Quran was compiled by human. This open the possibility the Quran was authored by human[s] not Allah.

I don't think it is critical to find the last verse and that is impossible given the Quran as it is.

What is critical is to establish the best estimated chronological order of the chapters with adjustments for some verses to be shifted to their relevant chronological order and taking into account the following elements;

1. Historical evidences
2. Human nature and human psychology.
3. Anthropology - human activities from past to present
4. The Philosophy of religion and spirituality
5. The psychology of cults - all religions started as cults.
6. Others -(to be advised)

From the above, we will be able to understand why different Muslims are driven to behave the way they are and why SOME evil prone are committing terrible evils and violence when influenced and inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.
The Surat(Chapters) are labelled Mecca or Medinah in accordance with were ayyat one of each was revealed. ,however ayyat one is not always the first revealed in a surah.

Surat 2 is a good example of this. 2:1 was not the first revealed. The Last Ayyats 284-286 were revealed early in Mecca as a prayer., and were the first ayyats of al-Baqerah revealed.

But at the Same time 2:1 is a direct reply to Ayyat 1:7 which makes it logical to have al-Baqerah immediatly follow al-Fatiha.

The Surah were sorted by name. the name of each surah is taken from a word contained in a surah that is unique for the surah or has significance to the Surah. Baqerah is in the discourse that runs from 40-120i specifically in the sub-discourse of 67-73 So we can be reasonably certain that discourse was one of the first revealed in Surah 2.

While al-Baqerah is classified as Medinah because the first discourse in context ayyats 1-20 were revealed during the Medinah era.but it does seem many perhaps most of the 10 discourses that make up al-Baqerah were revealed during the Mecca era.

All of the long Surah seem to have had the first Discourse beginning with the first ayyat of the surah, added during the Medinah era, but many of the discourses in the Surah having been revealed in Mecca.

The only Surat that seem to have been revealed at single locations are the very short Meccan ones.
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