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Old 04-13-2016, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this;
The Political Side of Hijabs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQEcEYtWYB0
First of all I thank you for posting a Video with CC.

However when one watches that video one comes to the conclusion that any action or inaction can and will be seen as a "Political Statement" to those that disagree with the person doing or wearing something unique to their ideology.


Wearing of a Shamrock

St Patrick's day parades

Display of Santa Claus

Christians who carry Bibles or wear a cross

Wearing mini-skirts

Now as to what the
Political Statement"is, one needs to ask the individual. It borders on ridiculous to think the Hijab is symbolic of Sharia. First that assumes there is a group or organization called Sharia. One is also making the assumptions this mysterious sharia committee or organization has a world wide following and a high degree of power. Oddly every day many non-Muslims perform Sharia compliant acts. Every Vegetarian is Sharia compliant as all vegetarian food is Halal. Every Jew is Shariah compliant as Kosher food is Halal. Every non-Drinker is Sharia compliant as avoiding alcohol is halal. If a person is obeying the laws of the nation they live in they are Sharia compliant as Sharia requires us to obey the laws of the Nation we are in.

Every action a person does or word he says is a "Political Statement" to an observer who sees political motivation behind it

Oddly many of the people who oppose the Hijab, would be in favor of a government requirement making it mandatory for Muslims to wear identification tags showing they are Muslims. They have that with no legislation required, when they do not try to prohibit Muslims from dressing like Muslims.

I bet there would be a huge uproar,by non-Muslims, if some self proclaimed Mufti declared a Fatwa that Muslims in non-Islamic nations should keep their belief hidden. (That would be Kitman and is a form of Taqqiyah)

Non Muslim hate sites react to that like this:

Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination! (MuslimFact)

There will be those who see Muslim women that do not wear Hijabs as making a political Statement or as doing kitman.
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:30 AM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,654,261 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Wearing hijabs in the West is exclusive, separatist, divisive, and 'unnecessary'.
And wearing Bikinis in public must be mouth watering, no?

And you must have objections on the dress code of nuns.
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Old 04-13-2016, 09:21 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And wearing Bikinis in public must be mouth watering, no?

And you must have objections on the dress code of nuns.
NoCapo correctly said:
"let these women make up their own minds about their dress, standards of beauty, modesty and religious observance."

This is a fundamental issue. If, suddenly, all nuns had the freedom to stop wearing their religious garb....none would. Because they already have that freedom. They choose to wear it and they can choose to stop wearing it. There is no honor killing or beating or apostasy or stoning.

Not so with the hijab and burkas. Women and girls are FORCED to wear these things or suffer serious consequences, including being murdered. If, suddenly, all Muslim women and girls had the freedom to stop wearing their religious garb with no repercussions....many would. Although I think many would want to but still not because they are so totally cowed. So many years of subservience and threats destroys them.

So, it's about INITIATING FORCE. Nuns are not forced. Muslim women are.

Another issue is security. Muslims make a stink about removing their burka for identification purposes. They even sue. It's ironic because many security measures we have today are because of Muslims doing terrorism. Nuns don't cover their faces.
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Old 04-13-2016, 09:52 AM
 
6,893 posts, read 3,401,525 times
Reputation: 2443
Blaming women for men approaching them. She wanted it. If she did not want it she would not have dressed that way.

It seems some men are unable to control their behavior.

Women are responsible for their own behavior. They are burdened with being responsible for the behavior of men.
It is familiar.
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Old 04-13-2016, 04:01 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,253,561 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
It is true for women in general. It is not weird to try to look good to the opposite sex. That does not mean trying to be a sex object. It means wanting men to think you are attractive. I am a woman and I have many women friends. We discuss such things. These girls are at the age where being attractive to boys is a big issue.
And this has nothing to do with Islam. Women in general will want to look attractive within whatever cultural framework they are situated. There are Christian denominations which require women to wear skirts, long hair, and head coverings in church. Orthodox Jewish women are not to allow their hair to be seen. It does not mean that any of these women do not care about their appearance, but that they do so within their own religious and cultural framework.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I am not the one dictating to women. Islam is.
Every religion and every culture has rules and norms governing dress. I am not offended that Catholicism dictates that nuns wear habits, or that Judaism dictates that men wear a kippah, why should I be angry that Islam dictates women wear a hijab?

I do have a problem with violence, or the legal system being used to enforce rules like this in any context. But the idea that no religion or culture should have standards of dress is a little ridiculous. If you feel that strongly about it, try going to the mall naked, and get back to me about having your standard of dress dictated to you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What verses would you remove from the Quran and what would you eliminate from Shariah Law?
None! It isn't my business, as it isn't my holy book. I leave the interpretation of Islamic holy texts to Muslims! I do care about external outcomes, I will oppose any interpretation of any holy book that leads to a non-secular theocratics government. But as long as folks can find ways to be faithful that do not involve breaking our secular law, more power to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Wearing hijabs in the West is exclusive, separatist, divisive, and 'unnecessary'.
And so are habits, kippahs, tichels, mantillas, dupattas, dastaars and the like. But unless you are seriously advocating banning all of these types of religious headgear or ostracizing those who wear it, then trying to do so to women who choose to wear the hijab is just bigotry, plain and simple.

-NoCapo
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First of all I thank you for posting a Video with CC.

However when one watches that video one comes to the conclusion that any action or inaction can and will be seen as a "Political Statement" to those that disagree with the person doing or wearing something unique to their ideology.

Wearing of a Shamrock

St Patrick's day parades

Display of Santa Claus

Christians who carry Bibles or wear a cross

Wearing mini-skirts
The above is true where certain emblems are distinctly representative of the ethos or spirit of that organization, e.g. the Christianity cross, Islam's cresent, ISIS's black flag, Nazi's swastika and in this case the notable hijab worn by Muslimah.

The question is whether all these emblems conveyed any "political statements"?
They are not political unless they have a political ethos.
Santa Claus, the Christian's cross do not has any inherent political ethos.
However, Islam do have political elements, so is the Nazis' Swastika, Communists' Sickle and Hammer and other political emblems.

Quote:
Now as to what the
Political Statement"is, one needs to ask the individual. It borders on ridiculous to think the Hijab is symbolic of Sharia. First that assumes there is a group or organization called Sharia. One is also making the assumptions this mysterious sharia committee or organization has a world wide following and a high degree of power. Oddly every day many non-Muslims perform Sharia compliant acts. Every Vegetarian is Sharia compliant as all vegetarian food is Halal. Every Jew is Shariah compliant as Kosher food is Halal. Every non-Drinker is Sharia compliant as avoiding alcohol is halal. If a person is obeying the laws of the nation they live in they are Sharia compliant as Sharia requires us to obey the laws of the Nation we are in.

Every action a person does or word he says is a "Political Statement" to an observer who sees political motivation behind it

Oddly many of the people who oppose the Hijab, would be in favor of a government requirement making it mandatory for Muslims to wear identification tags showing they are Muslims. They have that with no legislation required, when they do not try to prohibit Muslims from dressing like Muslims.

I bet there would be a huge uproar,by non-Muslims, if some self proclaimed Mufti declared a Fatwa that Muslims in non-Islamic nations should keep their belief hidden. (That would be Kitman and is a form of Taqqiyah)

Non Muslim hate sites react to that like this:

Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination! (MuslimFact)

There will be those who see Muslim women that do not wear Hijabs as making a political Statement or as doing kitman.
It is not one organization, but the fact is there are separate groups of Muslims around the world who enforce Sharia as in Islamic Law based on different sets Sharia principles.

Note, as mentioned above the 'political statement' is conveyed via certain emblems, acts, ideology, etc, that are distinct to the respective ideology. It is not that every single activity is a political statement.

The point is not every individual Muslimah set out to deliver a political statement by wearing the hijab. Individually they may have their different psychological reason but collectively they convey a political
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First of all I thank you for posting a Video with CC.

However when one watches that video one comes to the conclusion that any action or inaction can and will be seen as a "Political Statement" to those that disagree with the person doing or wearing something unique to their ideology.

Wearing of a Shamrock

St Patrick's day parades

Display of Santa Claus

Christians who carry Bibles or wear a cross

Wearing mini-skirts
The above is true where certain emblems are distinctly representative of the ethos or spirit of that organization, e.g. the Christianity cross, Islam's cresent, ISIS's black flag, Nazi's swastika and in this case the notable hijab worn by Muslimah.

The question is whether all these emblems conveyed any "political statements"?
They are not political unless they have a political ethos.
Santa Claus, the Christian's cross do not has any inherent political ethos.
However, Islam do have political elements, so is the Nazis' Swastika, Communists' Sickle and Hammer and other political emblems.

Quote:
Now as to what the
Political Statement"is, one needs to ask the individual. It borders on ridiculous to think the Hijab is symbolic of Sharia. First that assumes there is a group or organization called Sharia. One is also making the assumptions this mysterious sharia committee or organization has a world wide following and a high degree of power. Oddly every day many non-Muslims perform Sharia compliant acts. Every Vegetarian is Sharia compliant as all vegetarian food is Halal. Every Jew is Shariah compliant as Kosher food is Halal. Every non-Drinker is Sharia compliant as avoiding alcohol is halal. If a person is obeying the laws of the nation they live in they are Sharia compliant as Sharia requires us to obey the laws of the Nation we are in.

Every action a person does or word he says is a "Political Statement" to an observer who sees political motivation behind it

Oddly many of the people who oppose the Hijab, would be in favor of a government requirement making it mandatory for Muslims to wear identification tags showing they are Muslims. They have that with no legislation required, when they do not try to prohibit Muslims from dressing like Muslims.

I bet there would be a huge uproar,by non-Muslims, if some self proclaimed Mufti declared a Fatwa that Muslims in non-Islamic nations should keep their belief hidden. (That would be Kitman and is a form of Taqqiyah)

Non Muslim hate sites react to that like this:

Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination! (MuslimFact)

There will be those who see Muslim women that do not wear Hijabs as making a political Statement or as doing kitman.
It is not one organization, but the fact is there are separate groups of Muslims around the world who enforce Sharia as in Islamic Law based on different sets Sharia principles.

Note, as mentioned above the 'political statement' is conveyed via certain emblems, acts, ideology, etc, that are distinct to the respective ideology. It is not that every single activity is a political statement.

The point is not every individual Muslimah set out to deliver a political statement by wearing the hijab. Individually they may have their different psychological reasons but collectively they convey a political statement in the present circumstances.

The hijab in the typical situation is not an issue but in the present circumstances where there is peer pressure to wear it generate a political statement that reflect the ethos of Islam.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:39 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
And this has nothing to do with Islam. Women in general will want to look attractive within whatever cultural framework they are situated. There are Christian denominations which require women to wear skirts, long hair, and head coverings in church. Orthodox Jewish women are not to allow their hair to be seen. It does not mean that any of these women do not care about their appearance, but that they do so within their own religious and cultural framework.

Every religion and every culture has rules and norms governing dress. I am not offended that Catholicism dictates that nuns wear habits, or that Judaism dictates that men wear a kippah, why should I be angry that Islam dictates women wear a hijab?

I do have a problem with violence, or the legal system being used to enforce rules like this in any context. But the idea that no religion or culture should have standards of dress is a little ridiculous. If you feel that strongly about it, try going to the mall naked, and get back to me about having your standard of dress dictated to you...


None! It isn't my business, as it isn't my holy book. I leave the interpretation of Islamic holy texts to Muslims! I do care about external outcomes, I will oppose any interpretation of any holy book that leads to a non-secular theocratics government. But as long as folks can find ways to be faithful that do not involve breaking our secular law, more power to them.


And so are habits, kippahs, tichels, mantillas, dupattas, dastaars and the like. But unless you are seriously advocating banning all of these types of religious headgear or ostracizing those who wear it, then trying to do so to women who choose to wear the hijab is just bigotry, plain and simple.

-NoCapo
This has to do with the topic at hand. Read the first post. Where it becomes more Islamic in context is when the issues of force, security and rape enter the picture. Read the above posts. Nuns will not be murdered if they stop wearing habits. Nuns have freedom of choice. Habits do not cover faces and hide identity like burka's do. Muslims often blame the women if they are raped. Three important issues.

Read all the posts.
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Old 04-14-2016, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,043 posts, read 4,207,830 times
Reputation: 3046
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Different people have different perceptions and experiences in life.

For example, this experiment concluded a different outcome from what you have experienced.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mgw6y3cH7tA
If the goal is to be invisible and completely ignored, mission accomplished. Is that the end-goal? Western women's fashions seem to be calculated to get more attention rather than discouraging it. Seems to me that each clothing choice does exactly what it's meant to do.

And New York is fun like that. Just about anywhere else and you'd see a lot less catcalling.

Truth is, Christianity didn't used to be much different. Women were expected to keep everything from their necks, to their wrists to their ankles covered at all times. Form fitting outfits were nonexistent. Seeing a woman's ankles was absolutely scandalous! Women were often expected to be accompanied by men they knew well in public, especially in large crowds. I think the reason that the hijab irks Americans is because it's unfamiliar to us.

Is this really all that different from the hijab?



Last edited by godofthunder9010; 04-14-2016 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 04-14-2016, 03:26 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
If the goal is to be invisible and completely ignored, mission accomplished. Is that the end-goal? Western women's fashions seem to be calculated to get more attention rather than discouraging it. Seems to me that each clothing choice does exactly what it's meant to do.

And New York is fun like that. Just about anywhere else and you'd see a lot less catcalling.

Truth is, Christianity didn't used to be much different. Women were expected to keep everything from their necks, to their wrists to their ankles covered at all times. Form fitting outfits were nonexistent. Seeing a woman's ankles was absolutely scandalous! Women were often expected to be accompanied by men they knew well in public, especially in large crowds. I think the reason that the hijab irks Americans is because it's unfamiliar to us.

Is this really all that different from the hijab?

1. There is a huge dichotomy between wearing the hijab for modesty and then wearing it and piling on makeup and wearing tight/revealing western clothes. I'm betting the women you picture above did not wear a ton of makeup. Nor did they wear just a scarf and then flapper dresses.

2. These outfits that you show do not cover the face so there is not an identification/security issue.

3. Today we are seeing women and girls beaten and even murdered if they do not dress as the Muslim men demand. This really needs to stop. Is there any other religion where women are murdered if they do not cover their faces/hair/entire bodies?? The principle is one of INITIATION of force.

I know a Muslim girl now (living in the west) who is beaten if she tries not to wear the hijab. I am afraid for her.

4. In the Muslim world, often raped women are blamed for the rape. And punished.

5. Muslims are using the Islamic garb as a tool to promote Islam. They sue if they are asked to remove it, even if for security reasons. They push 'Wear a Hijab Day' in our schools.

Remember that the guy who filmed this had an agenda. He knew where to film for the most impact.

Also remember this is TODAY and what you are showing is past history. The world is moving on. Why isn't Islam?
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