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Old 04-14-2016, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
If the goal is to be invisible and completely ignored, mission accomplished. Is that the end-goal? Western women's fashions seem to be calculated to get more attention rather than discouraging it. Seems to me that each clothing choice does exactly what it's meant to do.

And New York is fun like that. Just about anywhere else and you'd see a lot less catcalling.

Truth is, Christianity didn't used to be much different. Women were expected to keep everything from their necks, to their wrists to their ankles covered at all times. Form fitting outfits were nonexistent. Seeing a woman's ankles was absolutely scandalous! Women were often expected to be accompanied by men they knew well in public, especially in large crowds. I think the reason that the hijab irks Americans is because it's unfamiliar to us.

Is this really all that different from the hijab?

This is an interesting thought.

"Western women's fashions seem to be calculated to get more attention rather than discouraging it."

^^
Actually there is another angle to it but not everyone is open to it. See if you understand the other side of the logic here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoe5SN--CkY
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This is an interesting thought.

"Western women's fashions seem to be calculated to get more attention rather than discouraging it."

^^
Actually there is another angle to it but not everyone is open to it. See if you understand the other side of the logic here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoe5SN--CkY
The Western Christian world's fashions have devolved based upon the outcomes women actually wanted. Many of modern fashions were designed by men, but a heckuva lot of them were designed by women. And regardless of who actually desigend the things, women made the choice to wear them. If they had simply refused to wear form-fitting clothing, bikinis and miniskirts, then they wouldn't be a thing today. All of them were absolutely scandalous when they first appeared. Women wouldn't be caught dead in the things. The man who invented the bikini was a Frenchman named Louis Réard. When Réard sought a model to wear his design at his press conference, none of the usual models would wear the suit, so he had to hire a stripper to showcase the thing.

So what happened? It certainly wasn't male chauvinist pigs forcing their daughters and wives into bikinis and miniskirts. Quite the opposite. Fathers strongly objected. There are two answers really. First, bikinis and miniskirts were a form of rebellion in an era that was all about rebellion. Secondly and most important, girls were trying to get the attention of boys. Those who wore skimpier clothing generally got more attention from the boys, so mission accomplished. Those that did not got less attention, so they started to adopt the skimpier fashions. At this point, girls in the western world don't even realize why they wear skin-tight clothing, short skirts and everything. It's just what everyone else does, so they do the same.

Your video is very Middle-Eastern in thinking. It doesn't make much sense to anyone in the Western World. Honestly, I don't think it's the hijab itself that people find objectionable. It hasn't been terribly long ago that headscarves of various sorts were fashionable in the western world. Windy day - wear a scarf. Regardless of what women throughout the world wear and how little fabric there is to it, Muslim cultures are considered the world leader in treating women like subhuman pieces of garbage. I'm sure that's not true across the board, but Middle Eastern culture in general is incredibly repressive. Muslim countries have legal systems are built around the notion that women are subhuman and often seen as property - entirely dependent on men for consent to do pretty much anything and everything. To non-Muslims, the hijab and burqa have come to symbolize Muslims of the world treating women like livestock with no rights. Accurate or not, westerners tend to equate wearing of the hijab and burqa with women either consenting to repression or as clear evidence of systemic repression. Westerners tend to look on the woman in hijab and burqa with pity. "How could any woman loathe themselves like that?" Some westerners even view it as clear evidence that the woman wearing it is extremely likely to be a suicide bomber or terrorist or something. All of it is largely hysterical nonsense, but the point is that the hijab makes westerners uncomfortable for very different reasons than what Muslims might expect. For that reason, the woman spending 5 hours walking around in both types of clothing isn't really telling us anything useful.

I'm not saying that I agree with the perception, but there it is. Westerners will continue to see the hijab and burqa as symbols of oppression until Muslims can clearly demonstrate they are not oppressing women.
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. There is a huge dichotomy between wearing the hijab for modesty and then wearing it and piling on makeup and wearing tight/revealing western clothes. I'm betting the women you picture above did not wear a ton of makeup. Nor did they wear just a scarf and then flapper dresses.

2. These outfits that you show do not cover the face so there is not an identification/security issue.

3. Today we are seeing women and girls beaten and even murdered if they do not dress as the Muslim men demand. This really needs to stop. Is there any other religion where women are murdered if they do not cover their faces/hair/entire bodies?? The principle is one of INITIATION of force.

I know a Muslim girl now (living in the west) who is beaten if she tries not to wear the hijab. I am afraid for her.

4. In the Muslim world, often raped women are blamed for the rape. And punished.

5. Muslims are using the Islamic garb as a tool to promote Islam. They sue if they are asked to remove it, even if for security reasons. They push 'Wear a Hijab Day' in our schools.

Remember that the guy who filmed this had an agenda. He knew where to film for the most impact.

Also remember this is TODAY and what you are showing is past history. The world is moving on. Why isn't Islam?
Honestly, the film doesn't make sense to the average westerner.

Ultimately, I agree with you. A religion that forces only one gender to abide by a strict dress code, potentially under penalty of death -- that just ain't right. And it is not a woman's responsibility to protect men from themselves. If a woman walks down the street naked as a jaybird, it does not give anybody the right to rape her. These are some very archaic concepts that Islam has quite stubbornly clung to. And I don't think non-Muslims object to the hijab because of how much it covers. I think they object because it's a strong symbol of the repression of hundreds of millions of women.

But I would say that less clothing is a terrible measure of how free or liberated women really are. Bikinis, miniskirts and revealing clothing is all about conformity at this point. American and European women do what other women do like a giant pack of sheep. The most liberated woman on earth isn't prancing around naked just to prove her liberated-ness. That's just stupid.
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Old 04-14-2016, 07:00 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Honestly, the film doesn't make sense to the average westerner.

Ultimately, I agree with you. A religion that forces only one gender to abide by a strict dress code, potentially under penalty of death -- that just ain't right. And it is not a woman's responsibility to protect men from themselves. If a woman walks down the street naked as a jaybird, it does not give anybody the right to rape her. These are some very archaic concepts that Islam has quite stubbornly clung to. And I don't think non-Muslims object to the hijab because of how much it covers. I think they object because it's a strong symbol of the repression of hundreds of millions of women.

But I would say that less clothing is a terrible measure of how free or liberated women really are. Bikinis, miniskirts and revealing clothing is all about conformity at this point. American and European women do what other women do like a giant pack of sheep. The most liberated woman on earth isn't prancing around naked just to prove her liberated-ness. That's just stupid.
I just cannot resist!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRl-eh7dTuo

And for the girls!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxmmc9nuBC8

The point is, it is not just women who are 'liberated'.....

I do agree with you, though. Skimpy clothing does not make someone liberated intellectually.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:20 PM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,640,943 times
Reputation: 1529
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The Western Christian world's fashions have devolved based upon the outcomes women actually wanted. Many of modern fashions were designed by men, but a heckuva lot of them were designed by women. And regardless of who actually desigend the things, women made the choice to wear them. If they had simply refused to wear form-fitting clothing, bikinis and miniskirts, then they wouldn't be a thing today. All of them were absolutely scandalous when they first appeared. Women wouldn't be caught dead in the things. The man who invented the bikini was a Frenchman named Louis Réard. When Réard sought a model to wear his design at his press conference, none of the usual models would wear the suit, so he had to hire a stripper to showcase the thing.

So what happened? It certainly wasn't male chauvinist pigs forcing their daughters and wives into bikinis and miniskirts. Quite the opposite. Fathers strongly objected. There are two answers really. First, bikinis and miniskirts were a form of rebellion in an era that was all about rebellion. Secondly and most important, girls were trying to get the attention of boys. Those who wore skimpier clothing generally got more attention from the boys, so mission accomplished. Those that did not got less attention, so they started to adopt the skimpier fashions. At this point, girls in the western world don't even realize why they wear skin-tight clothing, short skirts and everything. It's just what everyone else does, so they do the same.

Your video is very Middle-Eastern in thinking. It doesn't make much sense to anyone in the Western World. Honestly, I don't think it's the hijab itself that people find objectionable. It hasn't been terribly long ago that headscarves of various sorts were fashionable in the western world. Windy day - wear a scarf. Regardless of what women throughout the world wear and how little fabric there is to it, Muslim cultures are considered the world leader in treating women like subhuman pieces of garbage. I'm sure that's not true across the board, but Middle Eastern culture in general is incredibly repressive. Muslim countries have legal systems are built around the notion that women are subhuman and often seen as property - entirely dependent on men for consent to do pretty much anything and everything. To non-Muslims, the hijab and burqa have come to symbolize Muslims of the world treating women like livestock with no rights. Accurate or not, westerners tend to equate wearing of the hijab and burqa with women either consenting to repression or as clear evidence of systemic repression. Westerners tend to look on the woman in hijab and burqa with pity. "How could any woman loathe themselves like that?" Some westerners even view it as clear evidence that the woman wearing it is extremely likely to be a suicide bomber or terrorist or something. All of it is largely hysterical nonsense, but the point is that the hijab makes westerners uncomfortable for very different reasons than what Muslims might expect. For that reason, the woman spending 5 hours walking around in both types of clothing isn't really telling us anything useful.

I'm not saying that I agree with the perception, but there it is. Westerners will continue to see the hijab and burqa as symbols of oppression until Muslims can clearly demonstrate they are not oppressing women.
So what exactly do you mean by "Westerners . Please name the countries that you think make the western world and where "Westerners", and we will go from there.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:30 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So what exactly do you mean by "Westerners . Please name the countries that you think make the western world and where "Westerners", and we will go from there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Honestly, the film doesn't make sense to the average westerner.

Ultimately, I agree with you. A religion that forces only one gender to abide by a strict dress code, potentially under penalty of death -- that just ain't right. And it is not a woman's responsibility to protect men from themselves. If a woman walks down the street naked as a jaybird, it does not give anybody the right to rape her. These are some very archaic concepts that Islam has quite stubbornly clung to. And I don't think non-Muslims object to the hijab because of how much it covers. I think they object because it's a strong symbol of the repression of hundreds of millions of women.

But I would say that less clothing is a terrible measure of how free or liberated women really are. Bikinis, miniskirts and revealing clothing is all about conformity at this point. American and European women do what other women do like a giant pack of sheep. The most liberated woman on earth isn't prancing around naked just to prove her liberated-ness. That's just stupid.
If you check actual Shariah laws you will find there are none that provide for punishment of a woman who does not dress in any certain manner.

Under Shariah physical punishment is applicable only for the Hadud crimes and what a woman wears is not one of them.

Under Islamic law a man is not permitted to force a woman to wear a Hijab,Burkha or niqaab.That has to be a woman's free-will choice. What is covered under law is what both men and women are to wear when on Hajj and then it is forbidden for a woman on Hajj or Umrah to wear a Niqaab or Burkha.

What a woman must wear on Hajj: https://islamqa.info/en/36619


The question of the Hijab is somewhat complex because there,especially in the Mideast it is difficult to separate National Culture and Family tradition from Islam.. I found a rather lengthy discussion on the Hijab.

Quote:
The three countries most usually cited for Hijab enforcement are Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Hijab, more specifically the Burqa, has been enforced in Afghanistan since the Taliban took over major parts of the country in 1996 following years of civil war. The Burqa covers the entire body, head and face.

In Iran, Bullock says Hijab has been enforced since 1981, two years after the Islamic Revolution took over the country's leadership, with the support of most Iranians.

In Saudi Arabia, Bullock says she knows of no exact law making Hijab mandatory in the state, but it seems custom, social and family pressure play a role in ensuring Hijab, as well as the Niqab or face covering, is worn.

In all three cases, some form of violence has been associated with not complying to Hijab in these countries, including beating and whipping.

The perception of many liberals is that Islam is violent, misogynist, and anti-personal choice, with an Islamic state ideally interfering in every aspect of its citizens' lives.
The Question of Hijab and Choice | SoundVision.com

Another opinion regarding the Hijab

Quote:
Answer: Assalamu alaikum,

Dear Sister,

Thank you for your question.

Hijab is not just an outer act of devotion, but a reflection of an inner conviction in God and His law. Modesty can’t be legislated, particularly in an atmosphere of double standards, harshness, and criticism. This is not how to endear anyone to Allah Ta’ala and His religion.

What I will say, however, is that parents can have expectations. Any reasonable young person should understand that as long as he or she eats their parents’ food, sleeps in their bed, and lives under their roof, they ought to be willing to live up to their part of the bargain, which is respect for rules.

Once your family member is out on her own, how she dresses is her business. However, as long as she lives in a Muslim household that places certain expectations on its members, she should be willing to meet those expectations, her personal feelings aside.

Finally, this situation serves to illustrate the importance of instilling modesty in girls from a young age. It’s very difficult to embrace hijab as a teen when opinions are forming, obstinacy sets in, and peer pressure is intense.

May Allah make things easy,

Zaynab Ansari
Can Parents Force Their Daughter to Wear the Hijab? - SeekersHub Answers
another opinion

Quote:
93775: Should he shun his sister or beat her because she does not wear hijab?

Is it permissible for a brother to cut off ties with his sister if she refuses to wear shar’i hijab, even if he tries to force her to do that? Can he resort to beating her if all other attempts at persuasion have failed? Please note that the parents agree with her. I would like to point out that she covers her head and wears loose pants.
Published Date: 2007-02-05
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

A brother should help his sister to obey Allaah, which includes advising her to wear hijab which is enjoined by Allaah, and using wise methods in doing so, exhorting and calling her in the way that is best. He should avoid being harsh and cruel, for there is no kindness in a thing but it adorns it, and it is not taken away from a thing but it makes it defective. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad صلىالله عليه وسلم) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

[al-Nahl 16:125]

https://islamqa.info/en/93775
Bottom line a woman should wear the Hijab by choice. It is not permissible to use physical force to make a woman wear a hijab.
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you check actual Shariah laws you will find there are none that provide for punishment of a woman who does not dress in any certain manner.

Under Shariah physical punishment is applicable only for the Hadud crimes and what a woman wears is not one of them.

Under Islamic law a man is not permitted to force a woman to wear a Hijab,Burkha or niqaab.That has to be a woman's free-will choice. What is covered under law is what both men and women are to wear when on Hajj and then it is forbidden for a woman on Hajj or Umrah to wear a Niqaab or Burkha.

What a woman must wear on Hajj: https://islamqa.info/en/36619

The question of the Hijab is somewhat complex because there,especially in the Mideast it is difficult to separate National Culture and Family tradition from Islam.. I found a rather lengthy discussion on the Hijab.

Bottom line a woman should wear the Hijab by choice. It is not permissible to use physical force to make a woman wear a hijab.
All good information as always Woodrow. You are what many Muslim scholars would call a @@#$% liberal Muslim, and IMHO liberal Muslims are the only chance that Muslims will ever eventually coexist in peace with the rest of the world. It is unfortunate that there are so many examples in the Muslim world that do not think nor believe the same as you. You have lectures on how to beat your women by prominent and respected Muslim scholars -- don't hit her in the head or you might accidentally make her ugly.

I am rather curious where so many hardliners get the idea that the hijab and burqa are absolutes mandated by Allah. Are they really? Is it specifically commanded in the Quran or Hadith? Or is it just a tradition that developed over time?

What a woman must wear on Hajj is a once in a lifetime set of rules, but failure to wear them in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran can and does result in women getting executed, lynched or stoned. Predominantly Muslim nations have a pretty lousy track record for women's rights in general. And it is true that many Muslim girls living in the West are beaten by their parents or even distant relatives if they won't wear them. Example. A quick Google search pulls up examples of women and girls being murdered or severely beaten for not wearing hijab in pretty much every country in the world. Clearly, a whole lot of Muslims didn't get the memo that, as you say, "it is not permissible to use physical force to make a woman wear a hijab."

When I see a woman in hijab and/or burqa, I generally just think, "Oh, that's interesting." and move on. As I said earlier, Christianity used to exert massive pressure for women to dress far more modestly than they do today. It was considered shameful for a woman to have her hair uncovered, her neck exposed, her wrists exposed, her ankles exposed and everything inbetween. I don't think that showing more skin has made Christian/Western women freer. I don't think skimpy clothing promotes women's rights, nor does it make women safer. But it's ultimately their choice to wear what they want to wear. As a father, I'd much rather have my daughter walking around in something about as covering as the woman in the video earlier than a bikini. I view the Western Christian world's loss of modesty as a tragedy.

Ultimately, my opinion isn't the majority opinion. Not by a long shot. Westerners view the hijab and burqa as the Muslim women's repressive dress code that is enforced on all Muslim women on threat of death or serious physical harm. Every honor killing or father murdering his daughter over "dress code violations" just reinforces that viewpoint. When most non-Muslims see a woman in any flavor of traditional Muslim women's garb, reactions range from, "You poor thing! Look what those misogynistic sexist pig-men in your religion are forcing you to wear!" When they realize that a woman is wearing it by choice, the reaction tends to be, "Poor brainwashed girl, it's so sad to see that you loathe yourself so completely." And there's plenty of fear of all things Muslim, especially since 9/11 -- so many will react with fear to the hijab.

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 04-15-2016 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So what exactly do you mean by "Westerners . Please name the countries that you think make the western world and where "Westerners", and we will go from there.
Generally refers to first world countries that are either in Western Europe or those which are culturally descended from Western Europe via colonialism and predominantly Christian as a result. So most of the countries of Europe, all of North and South America, Australia, New Zealand and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of others.
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I just cannot resist!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRl-eh7dTuo

And for the girls!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxmmc9nuBC8

The point is, it is not just women who are 'liberated'.....

I do agree with you, though. Skimpy clothing does not make someone liberated intellectually.
Friends don't let friends wear speedos. Just terrifying.
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