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Old 04-16-2016, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From a Muslim's view(Me being the Muslim)

1.The Qur'an is the exact words of Allaah(swt) as recited to Muhammad(saws) through Jibreel

2.There are no Evil laden verses in the Qur'an. That is a misconception of some non-Muslims that do not understand the Qur'an
I understand the above is from your views as a Muslim.
The fact is as a believer and Muslim you MUST be bias [confirmation bias] thus cannot respect the truth of reality.

Based on reality and objectively I do not agree with your above views because they are not realistic.

The general standard of any human is they have subscribed to a reason standard of view that is realistic and not illusory or false.

Here are the realistic views;

1. There is no God existing as real. There is no real proof of this.

2. Even if there is a God who authored the Quran, it is impossible for the present Quran to be in the exact words of Allah. This is because the Quran has been transmitted through many generation of humans since it was first revealed. Because of the time and stages of transmission from oral to textual, it will naturally be subjected to corruptions in transmission regardless how careful the memorization and communication processes are done.

3. There are evil [as defined] laden verses in the Quran.
Definition of Evil:
Evil = any human acts and thoughts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual, other[s] and humanity. [excluding psychiatric cases].
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog40415-what-evil.html

Based on the above definition of 'evil', unless you have a justifiable counter to it, the 6,236 verses in the Quran do not contain a various range [low to high] of evil elements.
I have justified this point in another post, e.g.
The Quran contain elements like kill, fight, which are considered to be evil elements.
Example,
When a verse state a Muslim should fight [thus kill if necessary] non-Muslims if the condition warrant, this is an evil laden verse.

When the Quran banked on the "us versus them" element in many thousands verses in the negative sense, this primal potential evil element [low degree] becomes a significant evil element collectively.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the above is from your views as a Muslim.
The fact is as a believer and Muslim you MUST be bias [confirmation bias] thus cannot respect the truth of reality.

Based on reality and objectively I do not agree with your above views because they are not realistic.

The general standard of any human is they have subscribed to a reason standard of view that is realistic and not illusory or false.

Here are the realistic views;

1. There is no God existing as real. There is no real proof of this.

2. Even if there is a God who authored the Quran, it is impossible for the present Quran to be in the exact words of Allah. This is because the Quran has been transmitted through many generation of humans since it was first revealed. Because of the time and stages of transmission from oral to textual, it will naturally be subjected to corruptions in transmission regardless how careful the memorization and communication processes are done.

3. There are evil [as defined] laden verses in the Quran.
Definition of Evil:
Evil = any human acts and thoughts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual, other[s] and humanity. [excluding psychiatric cases].
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog40415-what-evil.html

Based on the above definition of 'evil', unless you have a justifiable counter to it, the 6,236 verses in the Quran do not contain a various range [low to high] of evil elements.
I have justified this point in another post, e.g.
The Quran contain elements like kill, fight, which are considered to be evil elements.
Example,
When a verse state a Muslim should fight [thus kill if necessary] non-Muslims if the condition warrant, this is an evil laden verse.

When the Quran banked on the "us versus them" element in many thousands verses in the negative sense, this primal potential evil element [low degree] becomes a significant evil element collectively.
There are indications the Qur'an of today is the same as what Muhammad(saws) recited.

Very early the Qur'an had spread to places as far apart as Ethiopia and China. The Chinese Muslims had ially no contact with Arabs after they had accepted Islam. Ethioia and China still recite exactly the same as do allHafiz world wide.The Uthman Qur'an which was written within 100 years of the Death of Muhammad(saws) and is the same as every other Qur'an in the world.

I believe just a few days ago you stated that the writing of evil to condemn it is not promoting evil. Basically that is what the Qur'an is doing in the verses you call evil laded.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 04-17-2016 at 07:19 PM.. Reason: corrected major typo error
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,879 posts, read 2,381,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum has described well that Allah's law should not be forced by people on other people. Allah may do that Himself if He so Wills.
Snipped with respect~ to address

May I suggest that "In the Land of Freedom of Religion" USA that> No particular "RELIGIOUS LAW" of any kind should be FORCED on other people.

So just maybe some States should abide by that principle. I agree that LET GOD himself do the JUDGING
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
Snipped with respect~ to address

May I suggest that "In the Land of Freedom of Religion" USA that> No particular "RELIGIOUS LAW" of any kind should be FORCED on other people.

So just maybe some States should abide by that principle. I agree that LET GOD himself do the JUDGING
I believe you will find that most of us do not believe Sharia law is applicable to non-Muslims and that Sharia Civil law can not be forced upon Muslims or non Muslims.

But we do want it to be permissible for Muslims to be able to use Shariah in personal civil contracts involving only consenting adult Muslims.
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No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

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Old 04-17-2016, 09:30 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
Snipped with respect~ to address

May I suggest that "In the Land of Freedom of Religion" USA that> No particular "RELIGIOUS LAW" of any kind should be FORCED on other people.

So just maybe some States should abide by that principle. I agree that LET GOD himself do the JUDGING
Yes. But, like most other Western countries, Muslims do try to force Shariah Law. They are quite clever about it, starting with just Muslims regarding civil matters and then expanding to non-Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_sharia_law

National Secular Society - Here is why Sharia Law has no place in Britain or elsewhere
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe just a few days ago you stated that the writing of evil to condemn it is not promoting evil. Basically that is what the Qur'an is doing in the verses you call evil laded.
No, I did not state that "writing to condemn evil is not promoting evil."

What I stated was,
writing to condemn evil and qualifying it in the absolute negative sense is not promoting evil.

However the Quran included evil laden elements but leave them open ended, e.g.

Muslims cannot kill but or if .... then, can kill.

Evil elements of intolerance, injustice, cruelty, violent, dehumanizing terms, and the likes are directed at non-Muslims on a no-holds-barred basis.

Quote:
There are indications the Qur'an of today is the same as what Muhammad(saws) recited.

Very early the Qur'an had spread to places as far apart as Ethiopia and China. The Chinese Muslims had ially no contact with Arabs after they had accepted Islam. Ethioia and China still recite exactly the same as do allHafiz world wide. The Uthman Qur'an which was written within 100 years of the Death of Muhammad(saws) and is the same as every other Qur'an in the world.
Because we are fallible human beings and the Quran has to be transmitted via generations of human beings till today, there is no way the Quran today is exactly the same as what Muhammad recited.

In addition, the reality is;
God cannot exists as real,
therefore there was no Quran from a God.
The Quran was most likely to be authored by Muhammad or a group of people.
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