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Old 04-18-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I agree with that.
My disagreement is Eeman is not the Arabic word for belief. although many translators translate it as such. It is a specific religious term that is an attribute of Islam. Not the generic word belief
My stand is;

1. Eeman in the loose sense is the Arabic word for belief [loose] which is the same as yussadiq. This relation is not done commonly, but semantically this two words are the same, i.e. eeman in theology, and yussadiq in the conventional sense.

2. Eeman in the strict sense is belief [strict] that is only in Islam and Quran and this is represented by the pillars of eeman.

What is critical here is to take into consideration the strict and loose sense of a term.
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Believe-In versus Believe-That

As I had stated 'believing' is a generic mental process that is generic to all human beings.
There are two main types of believing, i.e.

1. Believe-In and
2. Believe-That

Believe-in is generally used for theology and the supernatural.
Believe-that often refer believing in empirical facts which can be proven.

Here is an article on the subject;
Quote:
https://sites.google.com/site/skepti...r-believe-that

Contents
1 Of Belief-Ins and Belief-Thats
2 Belief-in
3 Belief-that
4 'In' and 'That', Is and Ought, Faith and Claims
5 Science is a Belief-in and a Belief-that
6 Conclusion
7 References and Links
8 Appendix - Definitions of Belief

The word belief comes with a lot of baggage. The word is used passionately to defend opposing positions within arguments. Conflict is natural as each opposing side assumes that their adversary is using belief in the same context. Various sources list many definitions. Most do not recognize the subtle (or blatantly) different ways in which it is used.
Most sources agree that the word belief is a noun used to describe something that one holds as being true in some respect. It is the object of the verb believe. So far, so good. Now let’s break down the verb believe.

H.H. Price distinguished between two different uses of the verb: “believe-in” and “believe-that”.
These usages correspond to the nouns: “belief-in” and “belief-that”.
He states, “Surely belief-in is an attitude to a person, whether human or divine, while belief-that is just an attitude to a proposition?”
Price uses these distinctions to point out the fundamental misunderstandings between those that hold certain beliefs and those that do not.

We can extend his distinction further to empirical (belief-that) and non-empirical (belief-in) matters.
I believe the above generic principles are applicable to and can explain the concept of eeman [strict or loose] in Islam without exceptions.
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My stand is;

1. Eeman in the loose sense is the Arabic word for belief [loose] which is the same as yussadiq. This relation is not done commonly, but semantically this two words are the same, i.e. eeman in theology, and yussadiq in the conventional sense.

2. Eeman in the strict sense is belief [strict] that is only in Islam and Quran and this is represented by the pillars of eeman.

What is critical here is to take into consideration the strict and loose sense of a term.

You would be correct if Eeman had the same definition as the English word belief. But it does not. Eemanis a Theological word relating to a specific attribute of Islam. Belief is not the definition used for the word spelled alif-Meem-Noon and pronounced Eeman in the Qur'an (Ameen and Amana are also spelled Alif-Meem-Noon) The point being the word Eeman in the Qur'an does not fit the definition of the English word belief.

I have not seen it used in any other manner. But I am just now learning MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) .The Arabic I speak is the Darija of Morocco which is different from Qur'anic Arabic and MSA I never heard the word eeman used except in relation to the Qur'an or Islam But I have only been learning MSA for the past 5 years and am attempting that with BYKI, Rosetta Stone and an online course. My impaired hearing is making it almost impossible, but I am quite capable of reading it.

Qur'anic Arabic is not used as a spoken language as no one has every been able to form an original sentence with it. It appears the Qur'an has every possible sentence that can be formed with Qur'anic Arabic and not a single Qur'anic sentence can be found in any Arabic literature unless the Author was quoting the Qur'an. But strangely a person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble understanding the Qur'an. The converse is not true, a person learning only Qur;anic Arabic will not understand any other dialect.

I doubt there is any English word that has the definition Eeman has, that being: to believe in the heart, to confess with the tongue and to demonstrate in physical actions. -

that is the "Loose" definition of Eeman

The specific definition of Eeman as used in the Qur'an is: Believe in Allaah(swt) and the pillars of Faith.
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You would be correct if Eeman had the same definition as the English word belief. But it does not. Eemanis a Theological word relating to a specific attribute of Islam. Belief is not the definition used for the word spelled alif-Meem-Noon and pronounced Eeman in the Qur'an (Ameen and Amana are also spelled Alif-Meem-Noon) The point being the word Eeman in the Qur'an does not fit the definition of the English word belief.

I have not seen it used in any other manner. But I am just now learning MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) .The Arabic I speak is the Darija of Morocco which is different from Qur'anic Arabic and MSA I never heard the word eeman used except in relation to the Qur'an or Islam But I have only been learning MSA for the past 5 years and am attempting that with BYKI, Rosetta Stone and an online course. My impaired hearing is making it almost impossible, but I am quite capable of reading it.

Qur'anic Arabic is not used as a spoken language as no one has every been able to form an original sentence with it. It appears the Qur'an has every possible sentence that can be formed with Qur'anic Arabic and not a single Qur'anic sentence can be found in any Arabic literature unless the Author was quoting the Qur'an. But strangely a person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble understanding the Qur'an. The converse is not true, a person learning only Qur;anic Arabic will not understand any other dialect.

I doubt there is any English word that has the definition Eeman has, that being: to believe in the heart, to confess with the tongue and to demonstrate in physical actions. -

that is the "Loose" definition of Eeman

The specific definition of Eeman as used in the Qur'an is: Believe in Allaah(swt) and the pillars of Faith.
I suggest you take note of Socrates' 'Know Thyself'.

You are like [not exactly] any machinery system with working parts in the body and brain. On average, there are 100 billions neurons, each with up to 10,000 connectors in the human brain [lesser if you have aged] and another set of 100 billions in the visceral and other parts of the body.

I [not an expert] am quite familiar with the above knowledge.
I know for sure the brain has a neural system that is responsible for the function of a generic belief system.
This generic belief system is fundamentally the same at the core for all human beings and therefore the core would be the same for any believers of any religions, i.e. Muslims, Christians and Jews.

From my reading of the Quran, I am aware the concept of eeman which is believe in the strict or loose sense [depending on context] is controlled by the generic belief system in the human brain.

Quote:
I doubt there is any English word that has the definition Eeman has, that being: to believe in the heart, to confess with the tongue and to demonstrate in physical actions. -
These are all covered under the general subject of 'belief' under the section re Belief -Religion, i.e. believe-that.

Eeman in the strict sense is as follows;
-generic belief [English] + specific Islamic elements as forms.
Therefore eeman is the same as the English concept of generic believe or belief.

The specific elements as forms are those from the Quran, i.e. the angels, allah, Muhammad the messengers, etc. which do not appear in another belief system.
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:15 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The Psychology and Neuroscience of Belief

Quote:
"Belief has been a most powerful component of human nature that has somewhat been neglected," says Peter Halligan, a psychologist at Cardiff University. "But it has been capitalised on by marketing agents, politics and religion for the best part of two millennia."

That is changing. Once the preserve of philosophers alone, belief is quickly becoming the subject of choice for many psychologists and neuroscientists. Their goal is to create a neurological model of how beliefs are formed, how they affect people and what can manipulate them.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...y.neuroscience
Eeman [strict or loose] = generic belief + specific Islamic elements of belief.

There is nothing specific nor mysterious on eeman [strict or loose], it is only specific because it has specific Islamic elements.
The psychological and neuroscientific perspective of 'belief' will enable one to understand the mechanisms of the generic belief and eeman [strict and loose] in the brain of human being.
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Old 04-19-2016, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Psychology and Neuroscience of Belief



Eeman [strict or loose] = generic belief + specific Islamic elements of belief.

There is nothing specific nor mysterious on eeman [strict or loose], it is only specific because it has specific Islamic elements.
The psychological and neuroscientific perspective of 'belief' will enable one to understand the mechanisms of the generic belief and eeman [strict and loose] in the brain of human being.
You are close:it is only specific because it has specific Islamic elements.

But you are missing that because of those elements it is a completely different word and concept than Belief.

There is no way you could correctly use the word Eeman in an Arabic sentence to mean belief.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are close:it is only specific because it has specific Islamic elements.

But you are missing that because of those elements it is a completely different word and concept than Belief.

There is no way you could correctly use the word Eeman in an Arabic sentence to mean belief.
I stated this earlier
eeman [strict or loose] = generic belief + specific Islamic elements of belief.

Here are the more exact equations;

Eeman [strict] is:
=generic belief [strict] + specific* Islamic elements of belief.
* specific = elements of the pillars of eeman.

Eeman [loose] is:
=generic belief [loose] + general* Islamic elements of belief.
* general = any thing loosely related to Islam.

In this case eeman in the loose or general sense is the same as belief in the loose of general sense.

Therefore when we say a Muslim has eeman in the loose sense, s/he is like any believer [loose] sense in any religions.

Logic:
1. Eeman-in-the-general-sense is the same as belief-in-the-general-sense
2. All Muslims generally [Arabic] has Eeman-in-the-general-sense
3. Since All Muslims general [Arabic] has belief-in-the-general-sense
4. Thus the concept of eeman [Arabic] [general] is the same as belief-in-the-general-sense.

The above logic demonstrated, in the general [loose, wider] sense, eeman in Arabic means belief in English [or even any other language].
The process of believing [general] is the same for all normal human beings without exceptions.

However eeman in the strict sense cannot be directly the same as beliefs in the strict sense of other religions because their pillars of beliefs are different.
For example belief in the strict sense of Christianity comprised the Trinity, Jesus as Son of God which is not the same as the eeman [strict] in the Quran.

What is similar is both Christianity and Islam entail belief-in-the-general-sense.
If it is belief-in-the-strict-sense, then they are different between Christianity and Islam.

We have to be precise here otherwise there will be confusions, e.g.
1. Christianity has beliefs.
2. Islam has beliefs.
3. Therefore Christianity's beliefs are the same as Islam's beliefs.

This logic is very bad and not sound because we did not analyze the belief in the strict [specific, narrow] sense.


Get it?

Last edited by Continuum; 04-19-2016 at 08:00 PM..
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Old 04-19-2016, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated this earlier
eeman [strict or loose] = generic belief + specific Islamic elements of belief.

Here are the more exact equations;

Eeman [strict] is:
=generic belief [strict] + specific* Islamic elements of belief.
* specific = elements of the pillars of eeman.

Eeman [loose] is:
=generic belief [loose] + general* Islamic elements of belief.
* general = any thing loosely related to Islam.

In this case eeman in the loose or general sense is the same as belief in the loose of general sense.

Therefore when we say a Muslim has eeman in the loose sense, s/he is like any believer [loose] sense in any religions.

Logic:
1. Eeman-in-the-general-sense is the same as belief-in-the-general-sense
2. All Muslims generally [Arabic] has Eeman-in-the-general-sense
3. Since All Muslims general [Arabic] has belief-in-the-general-sense
4. Thus the concept of eeman [Arabic] [general] is the same as belief-in-the-general-sense.

The above logic demonstrated, in the general [loose, wider] sense, eeman in Arabic means belief in English [or even any other language].
The process of believing [general] is the same for all normal human beings without exceptions.

However eeman in the strict sense cannot be directly the same as beliefs in the strict sense of other religions because their pillars of beliefs are different.
For example belief in the strict sense of Christianity comprised the Trinity, Jesus as Son of God which is not the same as the eeman [strict] in the Quran.

What is similar is both Christianity and Islam entail belief-in-the-general-sense.
If it is belief-in-the-strict-sense, then they are different between Christianity and Islam.

We have to be precise here otherwise there will be confusions, e.g.
1. Christianity has beliefs.
2. Islam has beliefs.
3. Therefore Christianity's beliefs are the same as Islam's beliefs.

This logic is very bad and not sound because we did not analyze the belief in the strict [specific, narrow] sense.


Get it?
You might have a point if Eeman was ever used in the Arabic language anyplace except the Qur'an. There is no evidence it existed in Arabic before the Qur'an It is possible the Phoenicians and Jews may have used it as a now lost Theological term. As we do believe the original Jews and Christians were Muslim and would have had Eeman for all practical purpose it was a newly revealed word used as a Characteristic of Islam. We would not even know what it is if Muhammad(saws) had not explained it. It is possible that MSA has adapted it and gave it a secular meaning. But, I have not seen it used in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) I also doubt you will ever have an Arab Christian or Arab Jew of today ever say they have Eeman.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You might have a point if Eeman was ever used in the Arabic language anyplace except the Qur'an. There is no evidence it existed in Arabic before the Qur'an It is possible the Phoenicians and Jews may have used it as a now lost Theological term. As we do believe the original Jews and Christians were Muslim and would have had Eeman for all practical purpose it was a newly revealed word used as a Characteristic of Islam. We would not even know what it is if Muhammad(saws) had not explained it. It is possible that MSA has adapted it and gave it a secular meaning. But, I have not seen it used in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) I also doubt you will ever have an Arab Christian or Arab Jew of today ever say they have Eeman.
The usefulness of a word itself is merely a tool of communicating reality.
Words are merely the semantic representations using alphabets, words are not the reality it is supposed to represent.
In this case the word is not critical but what is critical is what is the reality that the word was meant to convey.

The word 'eeman' is not critical, I could use the word 'Beeman' or xyz but the reality of what is intended ia still the same, i.e.

BEeman [strict] is:
=generic belief [strict] + specific* Islamic elements of belief.
* specific = elements of the pillars of Beeman.

BEeman [loose] is:
=generic belief [loose] + general* Islamic elements of belief.
* general = any thing loosely related to Islam.

I can even change 'belief' to 'oolief' or any word, but the essence must be
-the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining "oolief" is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
The mental process of 'belief' or whatever the word is the same as it exists in all human being and its usage can be in the strict and loose form depending on its degree of the mental state.

Therefore it does not matter whether 'eeman' in this case was used before the Quran or after the Quran. What is critical is the generic mental process that is referred to plus the specific Islamic forms.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-19-2016 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Eeman is a specific belief.It is not a meaning of the word belief.




Atheism is a specific belief that God(swt) does not exist,but that does not mean Athieism means belief.

Eeman is a specific belief that God(swt) exists but that does not mean Eeman means belief.
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