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Old 04-15-2016, 02:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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There is a very contentious issue going on in this forum with the concept of belief.

To me, 'belief' is a mental state from the mental activity of believing and fundamentally this is generic to all human being in every aspects of their life.
Believing is as generic as any general thinking or even breathing.
As with any human mental activities, the process of believing and the state of belief has intensity, i.e. it has different degrees, grade, strength, variability in relation to various circumstances.
Therefore to get the intended meaning of belief [believing] we need to take into whether the belief is presented in the strict or loose sense.

As for Khalif, his view of 'belief' is, the belief in relation to Islam is different from secular belief.
I content the difference is only in the forms [secular or theological] but not the substance, i.e. the fundamental generic belief of all human beings.

Here is a presentation of what is belief in the generic sense.

Quote:
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.

In other words, belief is when someone thinks something is reality, true, when they have no absolute verified foundation for their certainty of the truth or realness of something.[1]

Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

Here is an over-view of how 'belief' is generally discussed;
Quote:
1 Knowledge and epistemology
2 As a psychological phenomenon
3 Epistemological belief compared to religious belief
3.1 Belief-in
3.2 Belief-that 3.2.1 Economical belief
3.2.2 Delusion
4 Formation
5 Justified true belief
6 Modification
7 Partial
8 Prediction
9 Religion
9.1 Forms of religious belief
9.1.1 Fundamentalism
9.1.2 Orthodoxy
9.1.3 Modernism/reform
9.1.4 Superstition
9.1.5 Systemization
9.1.6 Universalism

9.2 Approaches to the beliefs of others
9.2.1 Exclusivism
9.2.2 Inclusivism
9.2.3 Pluralism
9.2.4 Syncretism

9.3 Adherence
9.4 Apostasy
10 Systems 10.1 Gilbert, sociological perspectives
10.2 Glover
10.3 Law
Do you agree there is a generic belief [believing] within all human being and what varies is merely the form pertaining the various circumstances?
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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While the above is quite accurate regarding thee English word Belief.It is not accurate for the Arabic Word Eeman Which is often translated into English as belief.The words do not have identical meaning. While the word Eeman carries with it the meanings of the English word belief it also has the elements of Faith, religion, Truth, credibility and confidence.

the above presentation of the word belief only contains about half of what Eeman entails.

The Arabic word that comes closest to the English word belief is yusaddiq يصدق and it is not found in the Qur'an

While eeman contains the concept of belief,that is only part of the meaning of eeman
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While the above is quite accurate regarding thee English word Belief.It is not accurate for the Arabic Word Eeman Which is often translated into English as belief.The words do not have identical meaning. While the word Eeman carries with it the meanings of the English word belief it also has the elements of Faith, religion, Truth, credibility and confidence.
Btw, my forte is Philosophy [Western and Eastern] and the concept of 'belief' is one of the central core of Philosophy.
Without 'belief' humans will not be able to know anything.
I have spent years researching and reinforcing my understanding of the concept of 'belief.'

If you have read the wiki article, you will note it cover all your supposedly elements of eeman, i.e. "Faith, religion, Truth, credibility and confidence" and much more in greater depth and wider coverage.
Btw, comparatively on an objective basis, the coverage of eeman as belief in Islam is very much inferior to the other religious system. This is why there is so much evils and violence committed [glaringly evident] by SOME evil prone Muslims all over the world.

The wiki article is MERELY a general overviews of "what is belief." To fully grasp the meaning of 'belief' one has to read loads of books and articles and discuss it in Philosophy Forums or elsewhere.


Quote:
the above presentation of the word belief only contains about half of what Eeman entails.
The Arabic word that comes closest to the English word belief is yusaddiq يصدق and it is not found in the Qur'an
While eeman [loose] contains the concept of belief, that is only part of the meaning of eeman
Half of what eeman entails??
As I had stated there is the generic belief and this is represented in eeman [strict] at its core but what is eeman [strict and loose] in the Quran is only a part of the article, i.e. belief in the theological perspective of the article. note Point 9.

Later I would introduce the wider and deeper aspects of 'what is belief' and demonstrate what is "eeman" which is merely a part to the whole picture.

Note beside eeman [strict and loose] which is one concept of Islam, there is the others, i.e. "islam" [submission], inhsaan, tagwa, muttagin, al-albabi which involve eeman [strict].

Your views represent one liability of Islam which brainwash Muslims to think Islam is superior and only Muslims will know what Islam is. Plus if a non-Muslims cannot read Arabic they will not be able to understand the fundamentals of Islam. This is a false belief.

The point is all human has the same DNA which generate generic basis systems for all human beings. This is why all human beings has the same digestive system, reproductive, nervous, senses, etc. Believing is also one generic mental systems that is the same for all human beings. The difference is merely in the forms that varied with circumstances and conditions but the fundamental is always the same as driven by the generic DNA.

There is no special Arabic or Islamic digestive, reproductive, nervous, senses or believing system at the fundamental level. You have to agree to this human biological fact.

I suggest you update yourself on the knowledge of 'what is belief' and note the context of how Islam is a merely a part of 'what is belief' in the superficial sense.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-15-2016 at 09:29 PM..
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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The concept of Generic belief is the Arabic word Yusaddiq.

Eeman is Religious belief specific to Islam and the Qur'an. Eeman is belief based upon faith in Allaah(swt) and It does not correspond fully with the English word belief.

If you are speaking of belief in General you are speaking of Yusaddiq. If you are speaking of Islamic belief you are speaking of Eeman.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The concept of Generic belief is the Arabic word Yusaddiq.

Eeman is Religious belief specific to Islam and the Qur'an. Eeman is belief based upon faith in Allaah(swt) and It does not correspond fully with the English word belief.

If you are speaking of belief in General you are speaking of Yusaddiq. If you are speaking of Islamic belief you are speaking of Eeman.
Eeman can be explained in terms of the English term 'belief'.

I am not sure of the meaning of 'yusaddiq' meant. I will have to find out more about it. Any reference?

In any case it does not matter.
The point is the term 'eeman' when used loose refer to 'believe' loosely or 'yussadiq' strictly.
If you say the generic belief is 'yusaddiq' [strict] then it is also the same as 'eeman' in the loose sense.

Eeman in the strict sense is conditioned by the 6 pillars of eeman which is specific to Islam, that is
Six pillars of Eeman or Belief
1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.
2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.
3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.
4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.
5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.
6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
The above elements of eeman are strictly associated with Islam as conditioned by Allah, the Quran and the messengers. As such the above eeman [strict] cannot be related to present Judaism, Christianity or any other religions.

Thus in this case eeman as above [strictly to Islam] is grounded on the generic belief [English] or eeman [loose sense] or your so called 'yussadiq'.

In other words,
All Muslims/mumin [loose sense] has generic belief [believing] which is termed "yussadiq" or eeman in the loose term.
However when a Muslim performed the 6 pillars of eeman sufficiently, the Muslim achieved strong eeman [strict sense] to be qualify as a mu'min [strict sense].
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Old 04-16-2016, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Eeman can be explained in terms of the English term 'belief'.

I am not sure of the meaning of 'yusaddiq' meant. I will have to find out more about it. Any reference?

In any case it does not matter.
The point is the term 'eeman' when used loose refer to 'believe' loosely or 'yussadiq' strictly.
If you say the generic belief is 'yusaddiq' [strict] then it is also the same as 'eeman' in the loose sense.

Eeman in the strict sense is conditioned by the 6 pillars of eeman which is specific to Islam, that is
Six pillars of Eeman or Belief
1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.
2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.
3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.
4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.
5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.
6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
The above elements of eeman are strictly associated with Islam as conditioned by Allah, the Quran and the messengers. As such the above eeman [strict] cannot be related to present Judaism, Christianity or any other religions.

Thus in this case eeman as above [strictly to Islam] is grounded on the generic belief [English] or eeman [loose sense] or your so called 'yussadiq'.

In other words,
All Muslims/mumin [loose sense] has generic belief [believing] which is termed "yussadiq" or eeman in the loose term.
However when a Muslim performed the 6 pillars of eeman sufficiently, the Muslim achieved strong eeman [strict sense] to be qualify as a mu'min [strict sense].
The 6 beliefs of Islam ( what you are calling pillars of eeman) Are the core beliefs of Islam. They are listed in order of importance. Number one being the only one required to be considered a 'Mu'min. the remainder are needed in the sense it would be pointless or difficult to perform Islam without believing them. The not believing any or all of 2-6 does not mean the person is not a Mu'min. But it does cause concern as to why a person would go through the motions of performing Islam if they do not believe them.

Somebody misled you on number 6. Qadr is all knowing, meaning that Allaah(swt) knows all that happened, is happening and will happen in the future. It is very similar to predestination, but not quite as the individual does all things of his own free will although Allaah(swt) already knows what the person is going to do.
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Old 04-16-2016, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Eeman can be explained in terms of the English term 'belief'.

I am not sure of the meaning of 'yusaddiq' meant. I will have to find out more about it. Any reference?

In any case it does not matter.
The point is the term 'eeman' when used loose refer to 'believe' loosely or 'yussadiq' strictly.
If you say the generic belief is 'yusaddiq' [strict] then it is also the same as 'eeman' in the loose sense.

Eeman in the strict sense is conditioned by the 6 pillars of eeman which is specific to Islam, that is
Six pillars of Eeman or Belief
1. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Oneness of Allah.
2. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the appointed Prophets of Allah.
3. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in all the revealed Scriptures of Allah.
4. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the Angels of Allah.
5. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the concept of the Hereafter, Paradise and Hell Fire, etc.
6. Absolute and total belief and acceptance in the ‘Qadr’ or Divine Decrees of Allah. [4]
The above elements of eeman are strictly associated with Islam as conditioned by Allah, the Quran and the messengers. As such the above eeman [strict] cannot be related to present Judaism, Christianity or any other religions.

Thus in this case eeman as above [strictly to Islam] is grounded on the generic belief [English] or eeman [loose sense] or your so called 'yussadiq'.

In other words,
All Muslims/mumin [loose sense] has generic belief [believing] which is termed "yussadiq" or eeman in the loose term.
However when a Muslim performed the 6 pillars of eeman sufficiently, the Muslim achieved strong eeman [strict sense] to be qualify as a mu'min [strict sense].
I should clarify yusaddiq. I apologize for not having done so. The easiest way is to use an Arabic-English dictionary. Not a translation but a dictionary that gives the definitions of a word in English

I found one online that I can copy and paste from Here is the definitions for yusaddiq an interesting point regarding the Arabic language in Arabic truth and belief are not separated from each other.



Using an Arabic dictionary Yusaddiq يصدق carries the following meanings depending on how it is used

Classical Arabic Dictionary
list of Latin characters
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Searched For: يصدق

Root: ص د ق
Wazn:
فَعَُِلَ
Word:

صدَق، يصدُق، الصِّدْق / الصَدْق
Meaning:
to be true;
to speak the truth (ه = to s.o., عن = about);
to be fitting, fit exactly, hold true (على = of);
Examples:
صدق وعدَهُ او صدق في وعدِهِ to keep oneٰs promise
Wazn:
فَعَّلَ
Word:

صدق، يصدق، التصديق
Meaning:
to believe, trust (ه = s.o./s.th.);
to believe (بـ = in s.th.);
to deem (ه = s.o./s.th.) credible, true, truthful
to approve, give oneٰs consent (على = to s.th.); in formal usage used to mean to certify, license, ratify (على = s.th.);
Examples:
لا يُصَدَّق كلامُهُ his talk is unbelievable
Synonyms and Antonyms
صادق على، أقر

Living Arabic: Classical Arabic Dictionary
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Old 04-16-2016, 09:29 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a very contentious issue going on in this forum with the concept of belief.

To me, 'belief' is a mental state from the mental activity of believing and fundamentally this is generic to all human being in every aspects of their life.
Believing is as generic as any general thinking or even breathing.
As with any human mental activities, the process of believing and the state of belief has intensity, i.e. it has different degrees, grade, strength, variability in relation to various circumstances.
Therefore to get the intended meaning of belief [believing] we need to take into whether the belief is presented in the strict or loose sense.

As for Khalif, his view of 'belief' is, the belief in relation to Islam is different from secular belief.
I content the difference is only in the forms [secular or theological] but not the substance, i.e. the fundamental generic belief of all human beings.

Here is a presentation of what is belief in the generic sense.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

Here is an over-view of how 'belief' is generally discussed;


Do you agree there is a generic belief [believing] within all human being and what varies is merely the form pertaining the various circumstances?
Here is the definition of belief from Belief | Definition of Belief by Merriam-Webster

"Simple Definition of belief
: a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
: a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone

Full Definition of belief
1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Synonym Discussion of belief
belief, faith, credence, credit mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. belief may or may not imply certitude in the believer <my belief that I had caught all the errors>. faith almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof <an unshakable faith in God>. credence suggests intellectual assent without implying anything about grounds for assent <a theory now given credence by scientists>. credit may imply assent on grounds other than direct proof <gave full credit to the statement of a reputable witness>."

If belief is a feeling, an emotion, what CAUSES that emotion? We know beliefs can be right or wrong. What causes a belief to be right, and what causes a belief to be wrong? Reality. You can believe with all your might that a deadly poison will be good for you. Belief won't help you survive. Reality is not subject to belief.

You can believe with all your might in a god, but belief won't make a god exist.

The tool of human survival (unlike other animals) is our mind. Our ability to reason...to grasp reality and acquire reality based knowledge....is what keeps humans alive.

I believe in gravity because I witness it every day. Science has explained gravity to my satisfaction. There are people who still question gravity, but they always act in accord with reality, or they die. No prayers to change gravity will help them as they fall from a cliff. Reality is not subjective.

Belief based on faith means blind acceptance of a certain ideational content, acceptance induced by feeling in the absence of evidence or proof. Reality doesn't matter. Feelings are based on a want, a whim, a need....but not on what is.

Imagine a mother bird ripping out the feathers of it's babies....a mother cat ripping out the claws of it's babies. That is what we humans do to our children when we teach them to ignore reason and turn to faith. We destroy their ability to use their tool of survival properly. We destroy their ability to reason.

"Do not say that you’re afraid to trust your mind because you know so little. Are you safer in surrendering to mystics and discarding the little that you know? Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life. Redeem your mind from the hockshops of authority. Accept the fact that you are not omniscient, but playing a zombie will not give you omniscience—that your mind is fallible, but becoming mindless will not make you infallible—that an error made on your own is safer than ten truths accepted on faith, because the first leaves you the means to correct it, but the second destroys your capacity to distinguish truth from error." Ayn Rand

Last edited by juju33312; 04-16-2016 at 09:30 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-18-2016, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Degrees of Belief
Here is an article on the degree of belief.


Quote:
Epistemology is the study of knowledge and justified belief. Belief is thus central to epistemology.

It comes in a qualitative form, as when Sophia believes that Vienna is the capital of Austria, and a quantitative form, as when Sophia’s degree of belief that Vienna is the capital of Austria is at least twice her degree of belief that tomorrow it will be sunny in Vienna.

Formal epistemology, as opposed to mainstream epistemology (Hendricks 2006), is epistemology done in a formal way, that is, by employing tools from logic and mathematics.

The goal of this entry is to give the reader an overview of the formal tools available to epistemologists for the representation of belief.

A particular focus will be on the relation between formal representations of qualitative belief and formal representations of quantitative degrees of belief.
For the details of the above article, read at
Formal Representations of Belief (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I have asserted there is generic belief in all human beings that is applicable to all aspects of human life whether in the secular or the religious.

Within the Islamic perspective, the generic belief is termed 'eeman.'
Eeman in the loose sense meant believe-in-general, i.e. not strict in the strict sense which refer to a Muslim as a believer.
Eeman in the strict sense is related to a Muslim and his performance of the 6 pillars of eeman. When a Muslim has cultivated sufficient degree of eeman, then s/he is qualified to be called a mu'min [strict sense].

This "degree" in degree of eeman can be explained by the above article, i.e. degree of belief. There are many such articles in the web.

While it is difficult [not for Allah] to compute the precise degree of eeman [strict] or belief [strict], one can estimate one's degree of belief or eeman based on certain criterias.
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Old 04-18-2016, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Degrees of Belief
Here is an article on the degree of belief.




For the details of the above article, read at
Formal Representations of Belief (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I have asserted there is generic belief in all human beings that is applicable to all aspects of human life whether in the secular or the religious.

Within the Islamic perspective, the generic belief is termed 'eeman.'
Eeman in the loose sense meant believe-in-general, i.e. not strict in the strict sense which refer to a Muslim as a believer.
Eeman in the strict sense is related to a Muslim and his performance of the 6 pillars of eeman. When a Muslim has cultivated sufficient degree of eeman, then s/he is qualified to be called a mu'min [strict sense].

This "degree" in degree of eeman can be explained by the above article, i.e. degree of belief. There are many such articles in the web.

While it is difficult [not for Allah] to compute the precise degree of eeman [strict] or belief [strict], one can estimate one's degree of belief or eeman based on certain criterias.
I agree with that.

My disagreement is Eeman is not the Arabic word for belief. although many translators translate it as such. It is a specific religious term that is an attribute of Islam. Not the generic word belief
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