U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-18-2016, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This carries with it contingencies:



Worded as such it favors an atheistic view point.

The other side of the coin would be:



I do agree it must be understood objectively and realistically. However Atheists and Theists differ as to what is reality.

Probably the best either can do is to present their concepts and do their best plain why they accept them. It is virtually impossible alter the belief or disbelief of another person unless the other person finds sufficient reason to be receptive.

Why I say that the Qur'an can only be fully understood through recitation.

The written Qur'an developed as a means to facilitate the memory of the reciters. What the written Qur'an can not capture is the pronunciation of the words. While that is not much of an issue in English there are occurrences such as the word. Read in which the meaning changes if you pronounce it as reed or as red.


In Arabic, especially Qur'anic Arabic this is very much an issue which is why one spends so much time in learning the proper Tajweed (Pronunciation) of every word as it occurs also makes a difference in translations if the translator is translating from a recitation or from a written Qur'an. Arabic including Qur'anic Arabic is often written with just the root letters. many different words can be spelled the same way. It is by the pronunciation one knows which word is meant.

A very short lesson in Arabic just to illustrate this concept


The Semantic Concept of Triangle (دلالة مصطلح المثلث) or Short Vowel Triangle
In Arabic linguistics, ‘triangle of language’ refers to three words that are identical in spelling, but are different in diacritics in which changing the vowel points will lead to a change in meaning. Hence, these three words are homographs. Words that are related to this triangle are nouns and verbs (Dawood 2001:27). The Arabic language has many homographic words. Some of them are related to this triangle.
In nouns, changing the vowel point may occur on the first, second, or third letter. Rarely, the diacritic change may occur on the fourth letter. Moreover, the change of vowel points may happen in the first and second letters together or the first and the third letters together (ibid.).
In verbs, the diacritics change may mostly take place on the second letter of the verb (عين الفعل) or it may transfer to the first letter, that is (فاء الفعل) in case of geminated verb (فعل مضعف) and empty verb (الفعل الأجوف) (ibid.).
The triangle is divided into two types— one meaning triangle and multiple meaning triangle. The first kind is not our concern in this study. The second kind is divided into the following branches (ibid.):
1-change of vowel point on the first graph which is common in nouns:
علي حبه جُنة -59
قسيم النار والجَنة
أمام الأنس والجِنة
The first جُنة means shelter, the second الجَنة means heaven, and the third الجِنة means the jinn.
2- change of vowel point on the second graph which is common in verbs:
60- قَدَمَ القوم = He became in front of them.
قدِمَ الرجل من سفره = He came back or it may also mean somebody went deliberately towards something.
قدُمَ الشيء = It became old or tattered (ibid.).

The source for this is a book I have in PDF format the name is:

Homonymy in English and Arabic: A Contrastive Study
Ahmed Mohammed Ali Abdul Ameer Areej As’ad Ja’far Altaie
College of Education (Safi yil Deen Al-Hilli)/University of Babylon
I understand language as a means of communication is a very sensitive mode and very vulnerable to errors and corruption.
Thus the tone/pronunciation must also be given consideration in addition to the construction of the words.

This is however a problem with many other languages and not just Arabic.

Humans of many languages [including] understand the above limitations and thus has take sufficient care to avoid errors.

However to insist recitation is preferred to reading is not a good reason to understand the message of the holy texts.

In the Eastern religion, the consideration is this;
1. Recitations are geared toward the emotions and devotional aspects of belief.
2. Reading and analysis are for the intellectual wisdom of the message.
In the Eastern religion point 2 is most essential for any spirituality while point 1 is optimal for those who had such tendency.

So my point is, reading and intellectually analyzing the Quran is more effective for Muslims than the recitation of it while at the same time one is aware of the limitation of such an approach. This is why there are so many tafsir relating to the Quran and Islam.

As to overcome the limitations, one should be familiar with reality, human psychology and all relevant knowledge.
All humans has generic qualities regardless of one is a Muslim or any other believer.
For example all human beings has the same fundamental digestive system. So an in depth understanding of the human digestive system will enable to understand the digestive system of all human beings.
The variations are only the different food or where they are sourced, grown, prepared and eaten. But from the lips onward, the process is the same for all human beings.

As with a generic digestive system and other system, all humans has the same generic fundamental spiritual and religious system in the human mind and body. Therefore when we understand this generic fundamental religious system of human beings we will understand the religious system of any human being regardless of whether they are believers of Eastern, Abrahamic or other religions. The difference is only in their forms, approaches and methods.

My point;
So don't give excuses because of language factors that non-Muslims will not be able to understand Islam sufficiently. Such excuses only insult the intelligence of human beings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-18-2016, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand language as a means of communication is a very sensitive mode and very vulnerable to errors and corruption.
Thus the tone/pronunciation must also be given consideration in addition to the construction of the words.

This is however a problem with many other languages and not just Arabic.

Humans of many languages [including] understand the above limitations and thus has take sufficient care to avoid errors.

However to insist recitation is preferred to reading is not a good reason to understand the message of the holy texts.

In the Eastern religion, the consideration is this;
1. Recitations are geared toward the emotions and devotional aspects of belief.
2. Reading and analysis are for the intellectual wisdom of the message.
In the Eastern religion point 2 is most essential for any spirituality while point 1 is optimal for those who had such tendency.

So my point is, reading and intellectually analyzing the Quran is more effective for Muslims than the recitation of it while at the same time one is aware of the limitation of such an approach. This is why there are so many tafsir relating to the Quran and Islam.

As to overcome the limitations, one should be familiar with reality, human psychology and all relevant knowledge.
All humans has generic qualities regardless of one is a Muslim or any other believer.
For example all human beings has the same fundamental digestive system. So an in depth understanding of the human digestive system will enable to understand the digestive system of all human beings.
The variations are only the different food or where they are sourced, grown, prepared and eaten. But from the lips onward, the process is the same for all human beings.

As with a generic digestive system and other system, all humans has the same generic fundamental spiritual and religious system in the human mind and body. Therefore when we understand this generic fundamental religious system of human beings we will understand the religious system of any human being regardless of whether they are believers of Eastern, Abrahamic or other religions. The difference is only in their forms, approaches and methods.

My point;
So don't give excuses because of language factors that non-Muslims will not be able to understand Islam sufficiently. Such excuses only insult the intelligence of human beings.
A point I failed to mention

Muhammad(saws)never read the Qur'an.He never learned how to read or write. Which was not uncommon in the era. Arabic was just developing as a written language and it would still be about 100 years before even an Alphabet was agreed up and least another 200 years before any punctuation or spelling rules.

to approximate how Muhammad(saws) and the Sahabah understood the Qur'an it is best done by listening to the recitations.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A point I failed to mention

Muhammad(saws)never read the Qur'an.He never learned how to read or write. Which was not uncommon in the era. Arabic was just developing as a written language and it would still be about 100 years before even an Alphabet was agreed up and least another 200 years before any punctuation or spelling rules.

to approximate how Muhammad(saws) and the Sahabah understood the Qur'an it is best done by listening to the recitations.
That is the point.
It is like Muhammad had to use camels and donkeys to travel around because there were no modern vehicles to move around.
When we have cars and airplanes at present there is no need to insist in following Muhammad [the exemplar] that we must use camels.

So your insistence that Muslims must recite or listen [use camels] to the Quran because it is more effective is wrong.
In this present age we should read and analyze [use airplane] the Quran in detail objectively.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2016, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the point.
It is like Muhammad had to use camels and donkeys to travel around because there were no modern vehicles to move around.
When we have cars and airplanes at present there is no need to insist in following Muhammad [the exemplar] that we must use camels.

So your insistence that Muslims must recite or listen [use camels] to the Quran because it is more effective is wrong.
In this present age we should read and analyze [use airplane] the Quran in detail objectively.
the problem is that because many Quranic words are written with just the 1st, Middle and last consonants of the word many words are written exactly the same way and differ only in pronunciation. If a translator translated from the written text there is very high probability the translation will contain errors. Even if the translator is translating from a recitation you do not know if any errors are made unless you are familiar with the recitation.

But even then to gain the full emotional impact of the Qur'an that is something that can not be conveyed in other languages.

This is Surah 15



https://youtu.be/a5L8INP-WVA

Do you think you could grasp the same emotional impact through reading a translation?

Unless your hearing is as bad as mine, you should be able to sense the emotional aspect even without understanding the language. The Qur'an impacts a Muslim in all sensory aspects, it is more than just words.

Back when my hearing was passable this was one of my favorite Surat. I can still hear the words in my memory. Although it has been about 8 years since I was last able to hear it.

Quote:
Translation Surah 15
Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:1

Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verses of the Scripture and a plain Reading. - 15:1 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:2

It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were Muslims. - 15:2 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:3

Let them eat and enjoy life, and let (false) hope beguile them. They will come to know! - 15:3 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:4

And We destroyed no township but there was a known decree for it. - 15:4 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:5

No nation can outstrip its term nor can they lag behind. - 15:5 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:6

And they say: O thou unto whom the Reminder is revealed, lo! thou art indeed a madman! - 15:6 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:7

Why bringest thou not angels unto Us, if thou art of the truthful? - 15:7 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:8

We send not down the angels save with the Fact, and that case (the disbelievers) would not be tolerated. - 15:8 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:9

Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian. - 15:9 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:10

We verily sent (messengers) before thee among the factions of the men of old. - 15:10 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:11

And never came there unto them a messenger but they did mock him. - 15:11 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:12

Thus do We make it traverse the hearts of the guilty: - 15:12 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:13

They believe not therein, though the example of the men of old hath gone before. - 15:13 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:14

And even if We opened unto them a Gate of Heaven and they kept mounting through it. - 15:14 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:15

They would say: Our sight is wrong--nay, but we are folk bewitched. - 15:15 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:16

And verily in the heaven We have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for beholders. - 15:16 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:17

And We have guarded it from every outcast devil, - 15:17 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:18

Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue. - 15:18 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:19

And the earth have We spread out, and placed therein firm hills, and caused each seemly thing to grow therein. - 15:19 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:20

And We have given unto you livelihoods therein, and unto those for whom ye provide not. - 15:20 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:21

And there is not a thing but with Us are the stores thereof. And We send it not down save in appointed measure. - 15:21 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:22

And We send the winds fertilizing, and cause water to descend from the sky, and give it you to drink. It is not ye who are the holders of the store thereof. - 15:22 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:23

Lo! and it is We, even We, Who quicken and give death, and We are the Inheritor. - 15:23 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:24

And verily We know the eager among you and verily We know the laggards. - 15:24 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:25

Lo! thy Lord will gather them together. Lo! He is Wise, Aware. - 15:25 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:26

Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered, - 15:26 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:27

And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire. - 15:27 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:28

And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered. - 15:28 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:29

So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him. - 15:29 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:30

So the angels fell prostrate, all of them together - 15:30 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:31

Save Iblis. He refused to be among the prostrate. - 15:31 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:32

He said: O Iblis! What aileth thee that thou art not among the prostrate? - 15:32 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:33

He said: Why should I prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter's clay of black mud altered? - 15:33 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:34

He said: Then go thou forth from hence, for verily thou art outcast. - 15:34 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:35

And lo! the curse shall be upon thee till the Day of Judgment. - 15:35 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:36

He said: My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised. - 15:36 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:37

He said: Then lo! thou art of those reprieved - 15:37 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:38

Till an appointed time. - 15:38 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:39

He said: My Lord, Because Thou has sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one. - 15:39 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:40

Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves. - 15:40 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:41

He said: This is a right course incumbent upon Me: - 15:41 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:42

Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee, - 15:42 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:43

And lo! for all such, hell will be the promised place. - 15:43 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:44

It hath seven gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion. - 15:44 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:45

Lo! those who ward off (evil) are among gardens and watersprings. - 15:45 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:46

(And it is said unto them): Enter them in peace, secure. - 15:46 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:47

And We remove whatever rancor may be in their breasts. As brethren, face to face, (they rest) on couches raised. - 15:47 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:48

Toil cometh not unto them there, nor will they be expelled from thence. - 15:48 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:49

Announce, (O Muhammad) unto My slaves that verily I am the Forgiving, the Merciful. - 15:49 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:50

And that My doom is the dolorous doom. - 15:50 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:51

And tell them of Abraham's guests, - 15:51 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:52

(How) when they came in unto him, and said: Peace. He said: Lo! we are afraid of you. - 15:52 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:53

They said: Be not afraid! Lo! we bring thee good tidings of a boy possessing wisdom. - 15:53 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:54

He said: Bring ye me good tidings (of a son) when old age hath overtaken me? Of what then can ye bring good tidings? - 15:54 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:55

They said: We bring thee good tidings in truth. So be not thou of the despairing. - 15:55 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:56

He said: And who despaireth of the mercy of his Lord save those who are astray? - 15:56 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:57

He said: And afterward what is your business, O ye messengers (of Allah)? - 15:57 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:58

They said: We have been sent unto a guilty folk. - 15:58 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:59

(All) save the family of Lot. Them we shall deliver everyone, - 15:59 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:60

Except his wife, of whom We had decreed that she should be of those who stay behind. - 15:60 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:61

And when the messengers came unto the family of Lot, - 15:61 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:62

He said: Lo! ye are folk unknown (to me). - 15:62 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:63

They said: Nay, but we bring thee that concerning which they keep disputing, - 15:63 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:64

And bring thee the Truth, and lo! we are truth tellers. - 15:64 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:65

So travel with thy household in a portion of the night, and follow thou their backs. Let none of you turn round, but go whither ye are commanded. - 15:65 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:66

And We made plain the case to him, that the root of them (who did wrong) was to be cut at early morn. - 15:66 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:67

And the people of the city came, rejoicing at the news (of new arrivals). - 15:67 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:68

He said: Lo! they are my guests. Affront me not! - 15:68 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:69

And keep your duty to Allah, and shame me not! - 15:69 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:70

They said: Have we not forbidden you from (entertaining) anyone? - 15:70 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:71

He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so). - 15:71 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:72

By thy life (O Muhammad) they moved blindly in the frenzy of approaching death. - 15:72 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:73

Then the (Awful) Cry overtook them at the sunrise. - 15:73 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:74

And We utterly confounded them, and We rained upon them stones of heated clay. - 15:74 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:75

Lo! therein verily are portents for those who read the signs. - 15:75 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:76

And lo! it is upon a road still uneffaced. - 15:76 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:77

Lo! therein is indeed a portent for believers. - 15:77 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:78

And the dwellers in the wood indeed were evil-doers. - 15:78 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:79

So We took vengeance on them; and lo! they both are on a high road plain to see. - 15:79 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:80

And the dwellers in Al-Hijr indeed denied (Our) messengers. - 15:80 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:81

And We gave them Our revelations, but they were averse to them. - 15:81 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:82

And they used to hew out dwellings from the hills, (wherein they dwelt) secure. - 15:82 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:83

But the (Awful) Cry overtook them at the morning hour, - 15:83 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:84

And that which they were wont to count as gain availed them not. - 15:84 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:85

We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and lo! the Hour is surely coming. So forgive, O Muhammad, with a gracious forgiveness. - 15:85 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:86

Lo! Thy Lord! He is the All Wise Creator. - 15:86 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:87

We have given thee seven of the oft repeated (verses) and the great Quran. - 15:87 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:88

Strain not thine eyes toward that which We cause some wedded pairs among them to enjoy, and be not grieved on their account, and lower thy wing (in tenderness) for the believers. - 15:88 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:89

And say: Lo! I, even I, am a plain warner, - 15:89 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:90

Such as We send down for those who make division, - 15:90 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:91

Those who break the Quran into parts. - 15:91 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:92

Them, by thy Lord, We shall question, every one, - 15:92 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:93

Of what they used to do. - 15:93 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:94

So proclaim that which thou art commanded, and withdraw from the idolaters. - 15:94 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:95

Lo! We defend thee from the scoffers, - 15:95 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:96

Who set some other god along with Allah. But they will come to know. - 15:96 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:97

Well know We that thy bosom is at times oppressed by what they say, - 15:97 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:98

But hymn the praise of thy Lord, and be of those who make prostration (unto Him). - 15:98 (Picktall)



Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) - 15:99

And serve thy Lord till the inevitable cometh unto thee. - 15:99 (Picktall)







__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 04-19-2016 at 05:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2016, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the problem is that because many Quranic words are written with just the 1st, Middle and last consonants of the word many words are written exactly the same way and differ only in pronunciation. If a translator translated from the written text there is very high probability the translation will contain errors. Even if the translator is translating from a recitation you do not know if any errors are made unless you are familiar with the recitation.

But even then to gain the full emotional impact of the Qur'an that is something that can not be conveyed in other languages.

This is Surah 15



https://youtu.be/a5L8INP-WVA

Do you think you could grasp the same emotional impact through reading a translation?

Unless your hearing is as bad as mine, you should be able to sense the emotional aspect even without understanding the language. The Qur'an impacts a Muslim in all sensory aspects, it is more than just words.

Back when my hearing was passable this was one of my favorite Surat. I can still hear the words in my memory. Although it has been about 8 years since I was last able to hear it.
I understand the effect of 'emotions' in languages and communications.
I am aware in Sanskrit pronunciation of most words, it is accompanied by the related emotions.

The danger is if we get it right then the communication would be more accurate but if we get it wrong which is most likely with the majority, then we have communication problems. Emotions can range from the vary subtle to the very obvious thus very vulnerable to misinterpretations.

Due to the high vulnerability of emotions, I believe for humanity sake at present, the optimal is not to rely on the emotional factors in the word itself but rather to rely on the contexts of the whole texts and all aspects of reality. Thus the optimal [net of pros over cons] is to rely on the objective basis.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-20-2016, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the effect of 'emotions' in languages and communications.
I am aware in Sanskrit pronunciation of most words, it is accompanied by the related emotions.

The danger is if we get it right then the communication would be more accurate but if we get it wrong which is most likely with the majority, then we have communication problems. Emotions can range from the vary subtle to the very obvious thus very vulnerable to misinterpretations.

Due to the high vulnerability of emotions, I believe for humanity sake at present, the optimal is not to rely on the emotional factors in the word itself but rather to rely on the contexts of the whole texts and all aspects of reality. Thus the optimal [net of pros over cons] is to rely on the objective basis.
Prhaps a better choice is for more interpretations of the Qur'an rather than attempted Translation. so far the only one I se trying to do that is Asad. I believe he has a great deal of proficency inthis thanks to his Jewish background and his knowledge of both Hebrew and Arabic.

Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible.

Many of us Muslims are very hesitant to attempt translation as we fear we might make an error and thereby be perpetuating an error.

Perhaps one day enough of us will group together and produce an interpretation based upon group consensus and be certain to advise that it is commentary and not the Qur'an.Languages are quite interesting especially comparisons between the language groups. They strongly reflect the culture and though processes. The Germanic language are based upon concrete though the Semitic and oriental language are very abstract and based upon the abstract intangible emotional side of the populace. I am only familiar with 2 Native American language Tsalagi (Cherokee) and Lakota (Siouxan) because my current wife is Cheyenne(Who speaks Lakota) and my deceased wife was Cherokee(who spoke Tsalagi) both are/were nearly fanatical American Indian activists. But I find both those languages to be constructed very similar to Arabic. My point being The emotional Arabic Structure is understandable to more people than the concrete Germanic Structure.

The Qur'an does emphasis we are to varify all things and if we follow an erroneous teaching it is our responsibility for not verifying.

Quote:
Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17/36].
https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress...inder-for-all/
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2016, 03:41 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps a better choice is for more interpretations of the Qur'an rather than attempted Translation. so far the only one I se trying to do that is Asad. I believe he has a great deal of proficency inthis thanks to his Jewish background and his knowledge of both Hebrew and Arabic.

Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible.

Many of us Muslims are very hesitant to attempt translation as we fear we might make an error and thereby be perpetuating an error.

Perhaps one day enough of us will group together and produce an interpretation based upon group consensus and be certain to advise that it is commentary and not the Qur'an.Languages are quite interesting especially comparisons between the language groups. They strongly reflect the culture and though processes. The Germanic language are based upon concrete though the Semitic and oriental language are very abstract and based upon the abstract intangible emotional side of the populace. I am only familiar with 2 Native American language Tsalagi (Cherokee) and Lakota (Siouxan) because my current wife is Cheyenne(Who speaks Lakota) and my deceased wife was Cherokee(who spoke Tsalagi) both are/were nearly fanatical American Indian activists. But I find both those languages to be constructed very similar to Arabic. My point being The emotional Arabic Structure is understandable to more people than the concrete Germanic Structure.

The Qur'an does emphasis we are to varify all things and if we follow an erroneous teaching it is our responsibility for not verifying.
Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible.
Are you so sure?

Here is a list of 46 English translators I regularly refer to.
I am not sure they are Muslims or not, but there are more Muslim names [likely to be Muslims than not] than others.
I noted there are only 6 non-Muslims.

Muhammad Asad In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:
M. M. Pickthall In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Shakir In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar In the Name of God, The Merciful, The Compassionate.
Wahiduddin Khan In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
T.B.Irving In the name of God, the Mercygiving, the Merciful!
Safi Kaskas In the name of God, the Merciful-to-all, the Mercy Giver:
[Al-Muntakhab] In the Name of Allah, Al-Rahman (Beneficent) and Al-Rahim (Merciful)
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) In the name of God, the Almighty, the Most Merciful.
Abdel Haleem In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy!
Abdul Majid Daryabadi In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Ahmed Ali In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever-merciful.
Aisha Bewley In the name of Allah, All-Merciful, Most Merciful
Ali Ünal IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE ALL-MERCIFUL, THE ALL-COMPASSIONATE
Ali Quli Qara'i In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful.
Hamid S. Aziz In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali In The Name of Allah, The All-Merciful, The Ever-Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Muhammad Taqi Usmani With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.
Shabbir Ahmed With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness.
Syed Vickar Ahamed In the Name of Allah, the All Merciful, the Ever Merciful; (Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem);
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
Farook Malik In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Dr. Munir Munshey In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Beneficent!
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Ever-Merciful,
Dr. Kamal Omar With the name of Allah - the Bestower of unlimited mercy, the continuously merciful
Talal A. Itani (new translation) In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) With G-d's Name, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer.
Maududi In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Ali Bakhtiari Nejad In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
Mohammad Shafi In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

Bijan Moeinian Lord; the Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful.
Faridul Haque In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful
Maulana Muhammad Ali In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Muhammad Ahmed - Samira By God's Name, the Merciful, the Merciful/Most Merciful .
Sher Ali In the name of ALLAH, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Rashad Khalifa In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) In the name of Allah, The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.
Amatul Rahman Omar With the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful,
Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Non-Muslims
Arthur John Arberry In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Edward Henry Palmer IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
George Sale In the name of the most merciful God.
John Medows Rodwell In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
N J Dawood (draft) In The Name Of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful
Thomas Cleary In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful,

Sayyid Qutb In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Beneficent.
Ahmed Hulusi By the one who is denoted by the name Allah (who created my being with His Names in accord with the meaning of the letter ‘B’), the Rahman, the Rahim.
Torres Al Haneef (partial translation) "In the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Most Kind"
Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli In The Name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful.
Mir Aneesuddin In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, The Merciful
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2016, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible.
Are you so sure?

Here is a list of 46 English translators I regularly refer to.
I am not sure they are Muslims or not, but there are more Muslim names [likely to be Muslims than not] than others.
I noted there are only 6 non-Muslims.

Muhammad Asad In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:
M. M. Pickthall In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Shakir In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar In the Name of God, The Merciful, The Compassionate.
Wahiduddin Khan In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
T.B.Irving In the name of God, the Mercygiving, the Merciful!
Safi Kaskas In the name of God, the Merciful-to-all, the Mercy Giver:
[Al-Muntakhab] In the Name of Allah, Al-Rahman (Beneficent) and Al-Rahim (Merciful)
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) In the name of God, the Almighty, the Most Merciful.
Abdel Haleem In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy!
Abdul Majid Daryabadi In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Ahmed Ali In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever-merciful.
Aisha Bewley In the name of Allah, All-Merciful, Most Merciful
Ali Ünal IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE ALL-MERCIFUL, THE ALL-COMPASSIONATE
Ali Quli Qara'i In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful.
Hamid S. Aziz In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali In The Name of Allah, The All-Merciful, The Ever-Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Muhammad Taqi Usmani With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.
Shabbir Ahmed With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness.
Syed Vickar Ahamed In the Name of Allah, the All Merciful, the Ever Merciful; (Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem);
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
Farook Malik In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Dr. Munir Munshey In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Beneficent!
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Ever-Merciful,
Dr. Kamal Omar With the name of Allah - the Bestower of unlimited mercy, the continuously merciful
Talal A. Itani (new translation) In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) With G-d's Name, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer.
Maududi In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Ali Bakhtiari Nejad In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
Mohammad Shafi In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

Bijan Moeinian Lord; the Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful.
Faridul Haque In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful
Maulana Muhammad Ali In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Muhammad Ahmed - Samira By God's Name, the Merciful, the Merciful/Most Merciful .
Sher Ali In the name of ALLAH, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Rashad Khalifa In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) In the name of Allah, The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.
Amatul Rahman Omar With the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful,
Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Non-Muslims
Arthur John Arberry In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Edward Henry Palmer IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
George Sale In the name of the most merciful God.
John Medows Rodwell In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
N J Dawood (draft) In The Name Of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful
Thomas Cleary In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful,

Sayyid Qutb In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Beneficent.
Ahmed Hulusi By the one who is denoted by the name Allah (who created my being with His Names in accord with the meaning of the letter ‘B’), the Rahman, the Rahim.
Torres Al Haneef (partial translation) "In the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Most Kind"
Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli In The Name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful.
Mir Aneesuddin In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, The Merciful
The Non Muslim Translators of the Qur'an into English I am aware of. Note some have Arabic Names.

Muhammad Ali (Not to be confused with Yusuf Ali or the Former Boxer)
Sher Ali
Zafarullah Khan
Kamaluddin and Nazir Ahmad
Salahuddin Peer
Malik Ghulam Farid
Khadim Rahman Nuri
Firozuddin Ruhi
Alexander Ross
George Sale
M. Rodwell
E.H. Palmer
Richard Bell
A.J. Arberry
N.J. Dawood
Thomas Cleary

I am not certain how many of those, on your list, with Arabic names are not Muslims. However the First translation into English by a Muslim was not until 1910 and that was by Mohammad Abdul Hakim Khan

I believe at least some of the Arabic names on your list were not Muslims. It seems that many of the Early translations were by Arab Christians. I will attempt to go through the list of Arab names in your list and see if I can find Biographies on them. But I suspect many are Arab Christians and not Muslims
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2016, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Non Muslim Translators of the Qur'an into English I am aware of. Note some have Arabic Names.

Muhammad Ali (Not to be confused with Yusuf Ali or the Former Boxer)
Sher Ali
Zafarullah Khan
Kamaluddin and Nazir Ahmad
Salahuddin Peer
Malik Ghulam Farid
Khadim Rahman Nuri
Firozuddin Ruhi
Alexander Ross
George Sale
M. Rodwell
E.H. Palmer
Richard Bell
A.J. Arberry
N.J. Dawood
Thomas Cleary

I am not certain how many of those, on your list, with Arabic names are not Muslims. However the First translation into English by a Muslim was not until 1910 and that was by Mohammad Abdul Hakim Khan

I believe at least some of the Arabic names on your list were not Muslims. It seems that many of the Early translations were by Arab Christians. I will attempt to go through the list of Arab names in your list and see if I can find Biographies on them. But I suspect many are Arab Christians and not Muslims
Subject to confirmation of the ones in my list, the % of non-Muslims translators is still low.

Thus your original claim, i.e.

Woodrow Li: "Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible."

is not likely to be true.

One critical point is:
When the Muslims [Arabs and others] translated the Quran into English, one will note they all have a lot of different translations as perceived in the mind.
Therefore it is likely even the Islamic scholars who focus solely on the Arabic Quran will have perceived different concepts in the mind for a certain word.
Point is Allah is not around to be the final arbiter.
This is a problem of the Quran which has words that are vulnerable to multiple meanings and Allah is not around to confirm Allah's real intended meaning. Such ambiguity leave holes for evil prone Muslims to be influenced by the evil elements to commit terrible evils and violence. This is not a speculation but a reality of which the evidences are so glaring.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-22-2016, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Subject to confirmation of the ones in my list, the % of non-Muslims translators is still low.

Thus your original claim, i.e.

Woodrow Li: "Many perhaps most (I'm actually quite certain most) translators of the Qur'an have been non-Muslims. Many with a built in bias to translate in the most derogatory manner possible."

is not likely to be true.

One critical point is:
When the Muslims [Arabs and others] translated the Quran into English, one will note they all have a lot of different translations as perceived in the mind.
Therefore it is likely even the Islamic scholars who focus solely on the Arabic Quran will have perceived different concepts in the mind for a certain word.
Point is Allah is not around to be the final arbiter.
This is a problem of the Quran which has words that are vulnerable to multiple meanings and Allah is not around to confirm Allah's real intended meaning. Such ambiguity leave holes for evil prone Muslims to be influenced by the evil elements to commit terrible evils and violence. This is not a speculation but a reality of which the evidences are so glaring.
There have been more translations into English than just the one you listed. All before 1910 were by non-Muslims. I'till checking the biograpies of the ones you have liste and am finding that some with Arabic names aot Muslims When I finish the checking I will post it. I am nearly half dne the difficulty is with some of the names there are many people with the same names, need to be certain the one I find are the authors.

You are correct even Muslims will have different translations, but I find that generally the word differences are synonyms and not different meanings.

Some things that keep them more alike in interpretations is most Muslims compare translations and go by majority consensus But even then you still get translations that show the bias of the interpreter

But over all I find that the Muslims I personally know find the verses you call violent a deterrent to violence. I am an administrator of an Islamic forum that has been in existence for over 20 years now (I became an admin 6 years ago) and has over 10,000 members world wide has only had one member professing that we are to fight non-Muslims, not have them as friends etc. We do have a Qur'an section in which we discuss each ayyat and the meanings of it. But, so far except for that one person none have ever claimed any ayyat encourages violence. We do have a good variety of members including Sufi, Sunni Shi'ite,Ahamadyyat and even a few NOI many of the members only speak Arabic. We do allow posts to be in English or Arabic and have one section that is Arabic only. There is a subsection that is Urdu only for that we do have Urdu speaking mods. My son-in-law and youngest daughter speak Urdu so if I have questions about a post I ask them.

My point for that long tirade is the value of the "violent" verses as a deterrent to violence out-weighs the possibility some people will be influenced to do violence because of them. I do not believe people do violence because of the Qur'an but do so in spite of it.

The Islamic nations have considerably lower crime rates than the rest of the world. Nearly every Islamic Nation has abandoned the death penalty or has not used it for over 20 years.

Demonizing Islam has given more than a few non-Muslim nations justification to pass very restrictive laws, tightening their hold on the populace. It has also been a revenue generator for the Churches. Nearly all if not all of the US's 320,000 Churches collect money to finance Missionary work or to help persecuted Christians in the Islamic Nations. It is a major industry. Fear is a great incentive to entice people to give money.

Save Christians in Muslim Countries | Walid Shoebat

Partners & Donations | For The Love of Muslims

Persecuted Christians | Persecution in the Middle East | Rescue Christians | www.rescuechristians.org

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/donate/

http://www.persecution.com/uploads/m...nistry2014.pdf

https://secure.persecution.com/p-583...xtremists.aspx

That is just a sampling there are thousands of such organizations in the US alone. It is a big business. Food for thought: How much of that money ever gets to Christians in Islamic Nations?


There is an even bigger number of organizations collecting money to send missionaries and/or bibles.

A few

Missions To Islam

Outreach - Global Missions

Iraq Team - Servant Group International

This next one is interesting as they claim to work in 100 Islamic Nations-----There are only 49 Muslim Nations

Pastor Training John - Cattle for Christ International, Inc.

Demonizing Islam also helps raise funds for Missionaries in non-Muslim Nations. The fear--"If we don't save them dem heathen moozlems will get'em"

Demonizing Islam is a very lucrative business.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top