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Old 04-15-2016, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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My hypothesis in this regard is this;

1. ALL humans has the potential to be evil [as defined].
2. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] has the tendency to commit evil
3. Those who has tendency to commit evil are likely to commit evil when exposed to evil laden elements that will trigger their faculty of evilness.

Islam as an ideology and religion takes various preventive steps to ensure all Muslims are not exposed to elements that could trigger evils in them, e.g.
-all Muslimah must cover up so that their exposed body parts do not trigger lust in Muslim men which could lead to terrible evil consequences [31:24].
-from the Ahadith, all Muslimah must even cover their hair and in the extreme case, cover the whole body.
-do not befriend non-Muslims as they could seduce Muslims to their "evil" ways. [3:118, 4:89]

From the above we could infer Allah take it that 100% of Muslims are vulnerable to commit evil at least the lowest level of evil [as defined]. This is why he commanded all Muslimah to cover up and issued certain warnings to steer Muslims from possible exposure to the triggers of evil elements.

My point:
Allah is very aware all Muslims has the potential and tendency to commit evil [as defined], thus Allah has ordained certain preventive steps to ensure Muslims are not exposed to them so as to prevent them from committing evil.

The irony is while Allah is very well aware of the above principle [see hypothesis 1-3], Allah deliberately included a wide range of evil laden elements in the Quran to the extent that SOME Muslims are influenced and triggered to commit a different set of terrible evils and violence in the name of Allah.

If Allah is fully aware of the principle [hypothesis 1-3] and avoid including evil laden elements [leading] in the Quran, then, the world at present would not be facing any Quran-inspired evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.

As a comparison many other religious leader[s] are aware of the moral consequences of hypothesis 1-3 and wisely they do not include leading evil laden elements in their holy texts and thus their evil prone believers do not have the opportunity to use their religious texts as a justification to commit evils and violence.

Thus,
yes Islam and the Quran abhors evil [as defined] but while it prevent one set of evils, it condone another set of evil via its evil laden verses that trigger SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

Agree/disagree?

Notes:
Definition of Evil:
Evil = any human acts and thoughts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual, other[s] and humanity. [excluding psychiatric cases].

http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog40415-what-evil.html
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Old 04-15-2016, 07:10 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,763 times
Reputation: 289
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My hypothesis in this regard is this;

1. ALL humans has the potential to be evil [as defined].
2. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] has the tendency to commit evil
3. Those who has tendency to commit evil are likely to commit evil when exposed to evil laden elements that will trigger their faculty of evilness.
1. All human beings have potential to commit evil act. This fact alone means effectively all human beings are evil prone.
2. 20% figure is nonsence.
3. Anyone is likely to commit evil act when faced with evil against him/her.

Quote:
Islam as an ideology and religion takes various preventive steps to ensure all Muslims are not exposed to elements that could trigger evils in them, e.g.
-all Muslimah must cover up so that their exposed body parts do not trigger lust in Muslim men which could lead to terrible evil consequences [31:24].
-from the Ahadith, all Muslimah must even cover their hair and in the extreme case, cover the whole body.
-do not befriend non-Muslims as they could seduce Muslims to their "evil" ways. [3:118, 4:89]

From the above we could infer Allah take it that 100% of Muslims are vulnerable to commit evil at least the lowest level of evil [as defined]. This is why he commanded all Muslimah to cover up and issued certain warnings to steer Muslims from possible exposure to the triggers of evil elements.

My point:
Allah is very aware all Muslims has the potential and tendency to commit evil [as defined], thus Allah has ordained certain preventive steps to ensure Muslims are not exposed to them so as to prevent them from committing evil.
Up to this point, you are doing relatively fine.

Quote:
The irony is while Allah is very well aware of the above principle [see hypothesis 1-3], Allah deliberately included a wide range of evil laden elements in the Quran to the extent that SOME Muslims are influenced and triggered to commit a different set of terrible evils and violence in the name of Allah.
This is where you mess it up.

Allah was well aware of another factor that you have ignored so far; the deterrent factor. There has to be a deterrent against evil act being committed in the first place.

If you hit me (an evil act), and I warn you not to do it sgain or else I will smash your face badly, giving this warning is not evil laden warning but justice laden warning and a deterrent. Hitting back would be justice laden act.

Quote:
If Allah is fully aware of the principle [hypothesis 1-3] and avoid including evil laden elements [leading] in the Quran, then, the world at present would not be facing any Quran-inspired evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.
Allah has not included any leading evil laden elements but everything to deter evil actions in the first place.

Quote:
As a comparison many other religious leader[s] are aware of the moral consequences of hypothesis 1-3 and wisely they do not include leading evil laden elements in their holy texts and thus their evil prone believers do not have the opportunity to use their religious texts as a justification to commit evils and violence.
But they still commit evil acts. They will justify their evil.actions giving another reason. Evil prone believers do not give their belief as a reason for their evil action but their action as reacion to another evil from the other side. Their quoting of verses out of context are to recruit more evil prone believers and not as the reason or their reaction.

Quote:
Thus,
yes Islam and the Quran abhors evil [as defined] but while it prevent one set of evils, it condone another set of evil via its evil laden verses that trigger SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

Agree/disagree?
Disagree very strongly to the latter and agree to the former.

Whatever you regard in the Qur'an as evil laden is in fact "justice laden" and a deterrent against evil. The Qur'an rightly includes justice laden verses and warnings to deter evil acts. This is why Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an not to go beyond the limits set by Allah in order to prevent any injustice being done to the other side.
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Old 04-15-2016, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My hypothesis in this regard is this;

1. ALL humans has the potential to be evil [as defined].
2. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] has the tendency to commit evil
3. Those who has tendency to commit evil are likely to commit evil when exposed to evil laden elements that will trigger their faculty of evilness.

Islam as an ideology and religion takes various preventive steps to ensure all Muslims are not exposed to elements that could trigger evils in them, e.g.
-all Muslimah must cover up so that their exposed body parts do not trigger lust in Muslim men which could lead to terrible evil consequences [31:24].
-from the Ahadith, all Muslimah must even cover their hair and in the extreme case, cover the whole body.
-do not befriend non-Muslims as they could seduce Muslims to their "evil" ways. [3:118, 4:89]

From the above we could infer Allah take it that 100% of Muslims are vulnerable to commit evil at least the lowest level of evil [as defined]. This is why he commanded all Muslimah to cover up and issued certain warnings to steer Muslims from possible exposure to the triggers of evil elements.

My point:
Allah is very aware all Muslims has the potential and tendency to commit evil [as defined], thus Allah has ordained certain preventive steps to ensure Muslims are not exposed to them so as to prevent them from committing evil.

The irony is while Allah is very well aware of the above principle [see hypothesis 1-3], Allah deliberately included a wide range of evil laden elements in the Quran to the extent that SOME Muslims are influenced and triggered to commit a different set of terrible evils and violence in the name of Allah.

If Allah is fully aware of the principle [hypothesis 1-3] and avoid including evil laden elements [leading] in the Quran, then, the world at present would not be facing any Quran-inspired evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.

As a comparison many other religious leader[s] are aware of the moral consequences of hypothesis 1-3 and wisely they do not include leading evil laden elements in their holy texts and thus their evil prone believers do not have the opportunity to use their religious texts as a justification to commit evils and violence.

Thus,
yes Islam and the Quran abhors evil [as defined] but while it prevent one set of evils, it condone another set of evil via its evil laden verses that trigger SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

Agree/disagree?

Notes:
Definition of Evil:
Evil = any human acts and thoughts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual, other[s] and humanity. [excluding psychiatric cases].

http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog40415-what-evil.html
On paper it looks plausible as does a drawing of a 3 pronged blivet






the 3 points of the hypothesis

Quote:
1. ALL humans has the potential to be evil [as defined].
2. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] has the tendency to commit evil
3. Those who has tendency to commit evil are likely to commit evil when exposed to evil laden elements that will trigger their faculty of evilness.
Statement 3 is like the 3rd prong in the picture an illusion created by an assumption of points 1 and 2.

The fact is evil is done by people not exposed to any triggers. We humans do not like the idea that events can happen without an identifiable explanation, therefore we create prong 3. We need to explain things and as such create a hypothesis to help us understand what we can not accept. We do not want to believe people will do evil alone and without an exterior motivation or accomplices. We want to believe Flip Wilson's Geraldine when she says "The Devil made me do it."

When people see or hear of a horrific event they immediately begin developing theories as to how the perpetrator came to do such. to know that a person can commit violence without a trigger forces us to realize that we our self are potential demons. Something most of us do not want to admit,therefore we seek a reason that we are not likely to be subject to.

Statement 3 is not only a third prong in a blivet, it is also an ego protector.
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Old 04-16-2016, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
:1. All human beings have potential to commit evil act. This fact alone means effectively all human beings are evil prone.
2. 20% figure is nonsence.
3. Anyone is likely to commit evil act when faced with evil against him/her.
There is a big difference between POTENTIAL and Evil Prone.
Potential means all humans via their DNA has the machinery within their brain and body to do evil.

Prone means tendency, i.e.
- a natural or prevailing disposition to move, proceed, or act in some direction or toward some point, end, or result:

All men has the Potential to rape,
but not all men are prone to rape.
Only those who has weak control of their lust impulse will have the tendency to rape when the conditions are present.

The difference between Potential and Proneness/tendency is so obvious and I am surprised you are even countering it.

My 20% is merely a very conservative estimate that cover the lower degree of evil [as defined].
Lying is a low degree evil.
It is very likely that 2 in 10 humans [average] will lie.
Therefore [at least] 20% of all humans are evil prone.
Tell me what is wrong about this statement.

If you want to increase the % I have no problem with it if you describe the context.
But definitely it is not 100%.
I will accept a % higher than my conservative 20%.
If it is a higher % then it is more of an onus on the Quran not to include evil laden elements as they will influence a greater % of evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

Actually the lesser the %, the better for the Muslims point of defense.


Quote:
This is where you mess it up.
Allah was well aware of another factor that you have ignored so far; the deterrent factor. There has to be a deterrent against evil act being committed in the first place.

If you hit me (an evil act), and I warn you not to do it again or else I will smash your face badly, giving this warning is not evil laden warning but justice laden warning and a deterrent. Hitting back would be justice laden act.
Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements are ABC instinctual stuffs.
90% of all humans will naturally be able to invoke self-defense mechanisms when threatened with evil or they avoid it. These elements are inherent to humans beings and animals.

Because they are so instinctual, there is no need to include them in a religious texts which should emphasize on the existential dilemma, eschatological and soteriological matters.

Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements should be dealt within the secular aspects of life where they rules and laws can be adapted to changing conditions as an when necessary.
It is not wise to include Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements in religious texts, especially theistic religion because God's words cannot be changed, edited and removed.


Quote:
Allah has not included any leading evil laden elements but everything to deter evil actions in the first place.
Note my points above why Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements should not be included in religious texts where the matters of eternal life or hell is involved.

Quote:
But they still commit evil acts. They will justify their evil actions giving another reason. Evil prone believers do not give their belief as a reason for their evil action but their action as reacion to another evil from the other side. Their quoting of verses out of context are to recruit more evil prone believers and not as the reason or their reaction.
Since there are 20% of evil prone humans, including all religions, these evil prone believers will commit evil acts.
But they do not commit on the authority of a God. Therefore such evils can be easily dealt with by punishing, education or improve their impulse controls.

When evil laden elements are included in the holy texts, no one on Earth will dare to judge God's words especially if God words manifest DUCK-Rabbit scenarios. Thus the evil prone will continue to commit evil acts when influenced and inspired by the evil laden verses in the holy texts.

Quote:
Disagree very strongly to the latter and agree to the former.
There is no room for you to disagree because it is a fact there are tons of evil laden elements of a various degrees in the Quran.

Quote:
Whatever you regard in the Qur'an as evil laden is in fact "justice laden" and a deterrent against evil. The Qur'an rightly includes justice laden verses and warnings to deter evil acts. This is why Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an not to go beyond the limits set by Allah in order to prevent any injustice being done to the other side.
You cannot deny semantics.
Evil [as defined] is evil and justice is justice.

When leading evil elements are included in any verses, they are evil laden, e.g.
Permission is sanction for Muslims to fight [kill] if they are wronged.
Muslim cannot kill but if ... then one can kill.
There are many verses in the Quran which contain evil laden elements which will lead Muslims to commit evil with the permission of Allah.

There are also many other verses with low level evil elements [e.g. us versus them in the negative senses] but because of their large numbers, they generate an overall evil attitude for SOME Muslims who are evil prone to be triggered to commit evil.
This is not a guess but a reality.

As a comparison, the wiser religions which understand the sensitiveness of leading evil laden elements made the concerted efforts to ensure they are not included in their holy texts.

Note the case in the secular world where they have learned from research and experience that evil and violence laden elements in various medias [movies, books, etc.] can influence and inspire vulnerable people [especially] children to commit evils and violence. This is why so much effort is taken in the modern era to ban such evil and violent materials or they are banned or are censored.

I am sure if the Quran as a holy book is first written in 2016, it will not include evil laden verses.
Unfortunately for the Quran, which was authored in the 7th century, cannot be improved and eliminated the evil laden elements because God's perfect words cannot be edited, changed or removed.

Muslims must recognized the fact, because the Quran contained evil laden verses [since written in 7th century and cannot be changed] it is partly responsible for the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-16-2016 at 01:40 AM..
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Old 04-16-2016, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a big difference between POTENTIAL and Evil Prone.
Potential means all humans via their DNA has the machinery within their brain and body to do evil.

Prone means tendency, i.e.
- a natural or prevailing disposition to move, proceed, or act in some direction or toward some point, end, or result:

All men has the Potential to rape,
but not all men are prone to rape.
Only those who has weak control of their lust impulse will have the tendency to rape when the conditions are present.

The difference between Potential and Proneness/tendency is so obvious and I am surprised you are even countering it.

My 20% is merely a very conservative estimate that cover the lower degree of evil [as defined].
Lying is a low degree evil.
It is very likely that 2 in 10 humans [average] will lie.
Therefore [at least] 20% of all humans are evil prone.
Tell me what is wrong about this statement.

If you want to increase the % I have no problem with it if you describe the context.
But definitely it is not 100%.
I will accept a % higher than my conservative 20%.
If it is a higher % then it is more of an onus on the Quran not to include evil laden elements as they will influence a greater % of evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

Actually the lesser the %, the better for the Muslims point of defense.


Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements are ABC instinctual stuffs.
90% of all humans will naturally be able to invoke self-defense mechanisms when threatened with evil or they avoid it. These elements are inherent to humans beings and animals.

Because they are so instinctual, there is no need to include them in a religious texts which should emphasize on the existential dilemma, eschatological and soteriological matters.

Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements should be dealt within the secular aspects of life where they rules and laws can be adapted to changing conditions as an when necessary.
It is not wise to include Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements in religious texts, especially theistic religion because God's words cannot be changed, edited and removed.


Note my points above why Self-defense, retaliation and deterrent elements should not be included in religious texts where the matters of eternal life or hell is involved.

Since there are 20% of evil prone humans, including all religions, these evil prone believers will commit evil acts.
But they do not commit on the authority of a God. Therefore such evils can be easily dealt with by punishing, education or improve their impulse controls.

When evil laden elements are included in the holy texts, no one on Earth will dare to judge God's words especially if God words manifest DUCK-Rabbit scenarios. Thus the evil prone will continue to commit evil acts when influenced and inspired by the evil laden verses in the holy texts.

There is no room for you to disagree because it is a fact there are tons of evil laden elements of a various degrees in the Quran.

You cannot deny semantics.
Evil [as defined] is evil and justice is justice.

When leading evil elements are included in any verses, they are evil laden, e.g.
Permission is sanction for Muslims to fight [kill] if they are wronged.
Muslim cannot kill but if ... then one can kill.
There are many verses in the Quran which contain evil laden elements which will lead Muslims to commit evil with the permission of Allah.

There are also many other verses with low level evil elements [e.g. us versus them in the negative senses] but because of their large numbers, they generate an overall evil attitude for SOME Muslims who are evil prone to be triggered to commit evil.
This is not a guess but a reality.

As a comparison, the wiser religions which understand the sensitiveness of leading evil laden elements made the concerted efforts to ensure they are not included in their holy texts.

Note the case in the secular world where they have learned from research and experience that evil and violence laden elements in various medias [movies, books, etc.] can influence and inspire vulnerable people [especially] children to commit evils and violence. This is why so much effort is taken in the modern era to ban such evil and violent materials or they are banned or are censored.

I am sure if the Quran as a holy book is first written in 2016, it will not include evil laden verses.
Unfortunately for the Quran, which was authored in the 7th century, cannot be improved and eliminated the evil laden elements because God's perfect words cannot be edited, changed or removed.

Muslims must recognized the fact, because the Quran contained evil laden verses [since written in 7th century and cannot be changed] it is partly responsible for the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
The problem may be based upon a desire to define what a "Religious Text" should contain.

One thing that needs to be clarified first is an understanding of what the Qur'an is.

For starters why is it called Qur'an Which means recitation instead of something like "alkitab almuqaddas" (The Holy Book)

We find at least 3 words used in the Qur'an

Qur'an--Recitation
Furqan--The Distinction
Dhker--Rememberance


Qur'an and Furqan are the 2 most common names used. Qur'an is basically the only name used in the Western Nations.

But over all the implication is it is to be listened to rather then being read.l very recent times (The development of photocopying) very few Muslims owned a Qur'an. Only some that could afford attending a Madrass would ever read the Qur'an.

The simple fact is that up until the early 1900s the Qur'an was not read by enough people for the words in the Qur'an to have much if any impact on the actions of people.

Now that brings us back to what is the purpose of the Qur'am.The simple reason and the one most non-Muslims do not believe. the purpose of the Qur'an is to remind people thatthere is only one God and only He is to be worshiped. That is the Qur'an, those fewwords are the message of the Qur'an and it is the same message that was given to Adam and all peaople since. Except Many people do not believe it and even more refuse to follow it.

There is no requirement for anyone to read the Qur'an,but all people are commanded to obey it's message (Know there is only one God, and only he is to be worshiped)even those who refuse to acknowledge it.

The Qur'an was revealed in a sequence that was appropriate for the audience at the time. Some surat were addressed to people that were hostile to Islam. Some who had knowledge of the previous revelations some who were idolators and the latter Surat were addressed specifiacally to Muslims.

A thorough study of the Qur'an can only be done in an academic setting by qualified and knowledgeable teachers. Those seeking an Islamic education are responsible to first verify the capabilities and reliability of the teachers. there is no authority that builds schools and assigns teachers. It is personal responsibility to seek and verify. Questioning and verifying all things is a prime responsibility of all Muslims. A thorough reading and study of the Qur'an will require at least 3 years to complete even one reading. If one were to read all the available fatwas and tafsie regarding Surah al-Fatiha alone it could take decades for a full study of that one short surah. There have been scholars who have spent their entire life studying just Surah al-Ikhlas.


ie:

An Explanation of Surah Al-Ikhlas - New Muslims eLearning Site

Studying Islam | Course Detail

https://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/16668...eat-new-method

I have read the Qur'an in Arabic over 100 times, but as for reading the Qur'an as it should be read I have yet to complete the first time. I estimate I will require at least 10 more years
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Old 04-16-2016, 06:57 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,751,950 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My hypothesis in this regard is this;

1. ALL humans has the potential to be evil [as defined].
2. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] has the tendency to commit evil
3. Those who has tendency to commit evil are likely to commit evil when exposed to evil laden elements that will trigger their faculty of evilness.

Islam as an ideology and religion takes various preventive steps to ensure all Muslims are not exposed to elements that could trigger evils in them...
I thought your were a committed follower of the religion organized around dead Muhammad as the last prophet of the postulated Most Fearsome Divine Being, so I was going to say that:

1. Indeed, good abhors evil in the most loving way.
2. But evil can also abhor both good and evil in the least loving ways.

I think the idea still stands, and is still good for education of a common reader.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I thought your were a committed follower of the religion organized around dead Muhammad as the last prophet of the postulated Most Fearsome Divine Being, so I was going to say that:

1. Indeed, good abhors evil in the most loving way.
2. But evil can also abhor both good and evil in the least loving ways.

I think the idea still stands, and is still good for education of a common reader.
You thought I am a committed Muslim?
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem may be based upon a desire to define what a "Religious Text" should contain.

One thing that needs to be clarified first is an understanding of what the Qur'an is.

For starters why is it called Qur'an Which means recitation instead of something like "alkitab almuqaddas" (The Holy Book)

We find at least 3 words used in the Qur'an

Qur'an--Recitation
Furqan--The Distinction
Dhker--Rememberance


Qur'an and Furqan are the 2 most common names used. Qur'an is basically the only name used in the Western Nations.

But over all the implication is it is to be listened to rather then being read.l very recent times (The development of photocopying) very few Muslims owned a Qur'an. Only some that could afford attending a Madrass would ever read the Qur'an.

The simple fact is that up until the early 1900s the Qur'an was not read by enough people for the words in the Qur'an to have much if any impact on the actions of people.

Now that brings us back to what is the purpose of the Qur'am.The simple reason and the one most non-Muslims do not believe. the purpose of the Qur'an is to remind people thatthere is only one God and only He is to be worshiped. That is the Qur'an, those fewwords are the message of the Qur'an and it is the same message that was given to Adam and all peaople since. Except Many people do not believe it and even more refuse to follow it.

There is no requirement for anyone to read the Qur'an,but all people are commanded to obey it's message (Know there is only one God, and only he is to be worshiped)even those who refuse to acknowledge it.

The Qur'an was revealed in a sequence that was appropriate for the audience at the time. Some surat were addressed to people that were hostile to Islam. Some who had knowledge of the previous revelations some who were idolators and the latter Surat were addressed specifiacally to Muslims.

A thorough study of the Qur'an can only be done in an academic setting by qualified and knowledgeable teachers. Those seeking an Islamic education are responsible to first verify the capabilities and reliability of the teachers. there is no authority that builds schools and assigns teachers. It is personal responsibility to seek and verify. Questioning and verifying all things is a prime responsibility of all Muslims. A thorough reading and study of the Qur'an will require at least 3 years to complete even one reading. If one were to read all the available fatwas and tafsie regarding Surah al-Fatiha alone it could take decades for a full study of that one short surah. There have been scholars who have spent their entire life studying just Surah al-Ikhlas.


ie:

An Explanation of Surah Al-Ikhlas - New Muslims eLearning Site

Studying Islam | Course Detail

https://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/16668...eat-new-method

I have read the Qur'an in Arabic over 100 times, but as for reading the Qur'an as it should be read I have yet to complete the first time. I estimate I will require at least 10 more years
Your above view is too limited and shallow.

What is critical with the Quran or any religious text is;
1. One must understand the message 100% and it can be by any means, i.e. reading, reciting/chanting listening, or otherwise.
2. 100% is an ideal so one must get one's understanding as near as possible to the ideal but one's best effort.
3. The minimal is one must practiced the minimal requirement.
4. A believer must conform as much as possible to what is learned understood.
Therefore your point,
"But over all the implication is it is to be listened to rather then being read."
is too loose.

A thorough understanding of the Quran is preferable done within a scholarly approach not necessary must be academic [institutional].

However there are two conditions to the understanding of the Quran, i.e.

1. Understanding by a Believer who MUST be bias [confirmation bias], otherwise the faith won't work.
2. Understanding the Quran objectively and realistically.

For the individual and personal sake 1 is normally the preferred approach to soothe the existential dilemma.
However, for humanity sake and its progress, 2 must be adopted.

Generally the approach in 1 will hinder the progress of 2.
At present, due to a trade off approach 1 is necessary but in the future approach 2 has to prevail to ensure the human species is continue [do not go extinct].
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your above view is too limited and shallow.

What is critical with the Quran or any religious text is;
1. One must understand the message 100% and it can be by any means, i.e. reading, reciting/chanting listening, or otherwise.
2. 100% is an ideal so one must get one's understanding as near as possible to the ideal but one's best effort.
3. The minimal is one must practiced the minimal requirement.
4. A believer must conform as much as possible to what is learned understood.
Therefore your point,
"But over all the implication is it is to be listened to rather then being read."
is too loose.

A thorough understanding of the Quran is preferable done within a scholarly approach not necessary must be academic [institutional].

However there are two conditions to the understanding of the Quran, i.e.

1. Understanding by a Believer who MUST be bias [confirmation bias], otherwise the faith won't work.
2. Understanding the Quran objectively and realistically.

For the individual and personal sake 1 is normally the preferred approach to soothe the existential dilemma.
However, for humanity sake and its progress, 2 must be adopted.

Generally the approach in 1 will hinder the progress of 2.
At present, due to a trade off approach 1 is necessary but in the future approach 2 has to prevail to ensure the human species is continue [do not go extinct].
This carries with it contingencies:

Quote:
However there are two conditions to the understanding of the Quran, i.e.

1. Understanding by a Believer who MUST be bias [confirmation bias], otherwise the faith won't work.
2. Understanding the Quran objectively and realistically.
Worded as such it favors an atheistic view point.

The other side of the coin would be:

Quote:
However there are two conditions to the understanding of the Quran, i.e.

1. Understanding by an Atheist who MUST be bias [confirmation bias], otherwise the lack of faith won't work.
2. Understanding the Quran objectively and knowing the reality of God(swt)
I do agree it must be understood objectively and realistically. However Atheists and Theists differ as to what is reality.

Probably the best either can do is to present their concepts and do their best plain why they accept them. It is virtually impossible alter the belief or disbelief of another person unless the other person finds sufficient reason to be receptive.

Why I say that the Qur'an can only be fully understood through recitation.

The written Qur'an developed as a means to facilitate the memory of the reciters. What the written Qur'an can not capture is the pronunciation of the words. While that is not much of an issue in English there are occurrences such as the word. Read in which the meaning changes if you pronounce it as reed or as red.


In Arabic, especially Qur'anic Arabic this is very much an issue which is why one spends so much time in learning the proper Tajweed (Pronunciation) of every word as it occurs also makes a difference in translations if the translator is translating from a recitation or from a written Qur'an. Arabic including Qur'anic Arabic is often written with just the root letters. many different words can be spelled the same way. It is by the pronunciation one knows which word is meant.

A very short lesson in Arabic just to illustrate this concept


The Semantic Concept of Triangle (دلالة مصطلح المثلث) or Short Vowel Triangle
In Arabic linguistics, ‘triangle of language’ refers to three words that are identical in spelling, but are different in diacritics in which changing the vowel points will lead to a change in meaning. Hence, these three words are homographs. Words that are related to this triangle are nouns and verbs (Dawood 2001:27). The Arabic language has many homographic words. Some of them are related to this triangle.
In nouns, changing the vowel point may occur on the first, second, or third letter. Rarely, the diacritic change may occur on the fourth letter. Moreover, the change of vowel points may happen in the first and second letters together or the first and the third letters together (ibid.).
In verbs, the diacritics change may mostly take place on the second letter of the verb (عين الفعل) or it may transfer to the first letter, that is (فاء الفعل) in case of geminated verb (فعل مضعف) and empty verb (الفعل الأجوف) (ibid.).
The triangle is divided into two types— one meaning triangle and multiple meaning triangle. The first kind is not our concern in this study. The second kind is divided into the following branches (ibid.):
1-change of vowel point on the first graph which is common in nouns:
علي حبه جُنة -59
قسيم النار والجَنة
أمام الأنس والجِنة
The first جُنة means shelter, the second الجَنة means heaven, and the third الجِنة means the jinn.
2- change of vowel point on the second graph which is common in verbs:
60- قَدَمَ القوم = He became in front of them.
قدِمَ الرجل من سفره = He came back or it may also mean somebody went deliberately towards something.
قدُمَ الشيء = It became old or tattered (ibid.).

The source for this is a book I have in PDF format the name is:

Homonymy in English and Arabic: A Contrastive Study
Ahmed Mohammed Ali Abdul Ameer Areej As’ad Ja’far Altaie
College of Education (Safi yil Deen Al-Hilli)/University of Babylon
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:14 PM
 
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You thought I am a committed Muslim?
No, I thought a Muslim posted this by the thread title (vague positive portrayal of Islam).
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