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Old 04-17-2016, 05:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are the one who is ignorant of what is stated by Allah. Note the verse again.
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
Yes, Allah had provided conditions but the additional condition in this case is -Allah sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers.
Continuum,

Do you even understand what happened when Allah sent down Sakina (translated by Pickthall as "peace of reassurance" and tranquility, contentmrnt, confidence and inner peace by others) upon the hearts of believers?


Quote:
As I had mentioned many times, I fully understand what you have stated, but I do not agree with your points because they are shallow, narrow, messy and not well thought.
Note I stated you don't understand human nature and psychology.
We are not discussing here human nature or psychology. I want you to discuss Eeman here.

I have given you clue after clue by reminding you about the first of the believers (the first ones to have eeman) in 26:51 to understand eeman but you are unable to understand it. Keep in mind that they had believed (had eeman) in only one message from Allah. When they received more messages, say another 9, what happenedn to those believers? Did it make them stronger in eeman or their eeman was now ten times the original eeman?

Quote:
Note the state of anger represent 'anger' in the same person.
Therefore if one's 'state of anger' changed, then one's anger changes [increase or decrease].
When I say he is angry, that is in the loose term, but to know the degree and in the strict sense, we need to gauge the "state of anger" in that person.
Do you want to gague the "anger" in that person or the "state of anger" in that person?

It is one thing to gague the state of eeman in a person but to gague eeman in a person is another matter.

Quote:
I don't think you know and understand what is really going in your brain when and if you are in a state of anger or any other emotions.
You do not understand what happens when someone has eeman for the first time (he becomes a believer) and he becomes stronger in eeman (he becomes strong believer).

Quote:
There is no difference between one 'state of eeman' and 'eeman' in this context.
Eeman is not the same as "state of eeman" of a person.

Quote:
When have you ever state there is strong or weak eeman? - show me the post?
I haven't!
I have been stating that a person is either weak or strong in eeman.

Quote:
What you have been asserting at the time is eeman is a flat thing in all Muslims.
I haven't stated it in a manner as crude as that but I think you know well what I have stated.

Quote:
This is why I specifically raised this thread to show your flawed thinking and lack of understanding of the various meanings of eeman in the context of the whole Quran.
You did the right thing to expose your lack of understanfing of eeman. The only eeman you understand is "no eeman" because you are in "state of no eeman".
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
So far what you have shown is your concept of eeman.

You have gotten opinions of 2 Muslims both of whom have a view that differs from yours.

If your desire is to understand how Muslims understand Islam, you have to look at the opinions of every Muslim. Definitions are derived by the usage of the majority. Which is why dictionaries become outdated Many words in an English dictionary had a different meaning 100 years ago. Dictionaries over 200 years ago have very little resemblance to today's definitions. To understand Islam one needs to understand how Muslims define Islamic terms, not how a dictionary defines them
Woodrow LIIf your desire is to understand how Muslims understand Islam, you have to look at the opinions of every Muslim.
What???

Look, I have given many links to show all the Islamic scholars and other Muslims support my view of what is eeman re Mu'min and eeman [strict].

Note post #11 in this thread and some later posts elsewhere [got to find them] with the various links;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43534438-post11.html
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,
Do you even understand what happened when Allah sent down Sakina (translated by Pickthall as "peace of reassurance" and tranquility, contentmrnt, confidence and inner peace by others) upon the hearts of believers?
Obviously I do.
The point is Allah send down the conditions to facilitate a Muslim to increase this faith, adding faith to his existing faith, thus indicating incremental faith.
Since faith and belief in the strict sense is the same as eeman in the strict sense, then it indicate that one's eeman can increase.


Quote:
We are not discussing here human nature or psychology. I want you to discuss Eeman here.
Are you a human being or a zombie?
The believers of Islam are Muslims and they are human beings [besides jinns]
If you are a human being then you cannot ignore human nature and psychology and the concept of eeman within its context and that of Islam.

Quote:
I have given you clue after clue by reminding you about the first of the believers (the first ones to have eeman) in 26:51 to understand eeman but you are unable to understand it. Keep in mind that they had believed (had eeman) in only one message from Allah. When they received more messages, say another 9, what happenedn to those believers? Did it make them stronger in eeman or their eeman was now ten times the original eeman?
Your problem is you deliberately ignore the concepts of strict and loose in relation to generic belief and believing.
I had stated I fully understand your meaning of eeman but I don't agree with it because your views on this point is too shallow and narrow without consideration for the strict and loose sense of its usage.

Receiving more messages of Allah do not automatically equate to strong eeman.
Eeman in the strict sense is related to the 6 pillars of eeman. One must be aware of these 6 pillars and cultivate the degrees of these pillars of eeman to a sufficient level to achieve a strong state of eeman.

Quote:
Do you want to gague the "anger" in that person or the "state of anger" in that person?
I have to say this is a dumb view.
It is quite easily understand when a person is angry in the normal sense when they display the elements of anger within them. Therefore to know whether is person is generally angry, just look for the obvious signs.
But for one to assess the "state of anger" within a person we need to be specific and more details in assessing the various elements of anger in that person.
One can compare the following features of anger in a person;
1. Redness of face
2. Facial responses
3. Body language
4. Physiological responses
5. Neurological response
6. Other criteria

Quote:
It is one thing to gague the state of eeman in a person but to gague eeman in a person is another matter.
Same explanation for anger.
It is more difficult to assess the state of eeman in a person but it can be done.

Quote:
You do not understand what happens when someone has eeman for the first time (he becomes a believer) and he becomes stronger in eeman (he becomes strong believer).
I am familiar with the concept of generic belief in theological from the psychological and neuroscientific point of view.
I bet you do not understand what is happening in your brain when you first has eeman [loose] and eeman-strict [if you have any].

Quote:
Eeman is not the same as "state of eeman" of a person.
It is so obvious eeman and state of eeman are the same thing but the state of eeman is merely the different degrees or grades.

If based on the above, what you are saying is "sleep" is not the same as "state of sleep."
You cannot be that ignorant. When any one is asleep, they are "sleeping" but their "state of sleep" may be different. Some could be in deep sleep, light sleep, dream state, in coma, etc.

Quote:
I haven't!
I have been stating that a person is either weak or strong in eeman.
Earlier you did not state a person has either weak or strong eeman. You insist eeman is all the same and that is why I started this thread to "educate" you on the strict and loose sense in relation to a strong or weak state of eeman.

Quote:
You did the right thing to expose your lack of understanding of eeman. The only eeman you understand is "no eeman" because you are in "state of no eeman".
You are getting childish on this.
I am getting serious because the truth of reality must prevail.
I will go into the deeper philosophical knowledge and reality of "what is belief" [eeman in the Islamic perspective] in this thread to show your ignorance in human nature and reality in reference to this issue.
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Old 04-18-2016, 01:43 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Obviously I do.
You do not!
Quote:
The point is Allah send down the conditions to facilitate a Muslim to increase this faith, adding faith to his existing faith, thus indicating incremental faith.
Allah was sending down more ayyat (verses) so that those with eeman would become stronger in their eeman. That's how one has peace, tranguility and contentment in his heart. The person is stronger in eeman.

Quote:
Since faith and belief in the strict sense is the same as eeman in the strict sense, then it indicate that one's eeman can increase.
You are missing the point in your ignorance of eeman. Faith and belief are not the same thing. Previously you have been implying that "believe" is eeman and the person doing the believing is Mumin. So what is eeman, "believe", "faith or "belief"?

Quote:
Are you a human being or a zombie?
The believers of Islam are Muslims and they are human beings [besides jinns]
If you are a human being then you cannot ignore human nature and psychology and the concept of eeman within its context and that of Islam.
Concept of eeman is not in context of human nature but in context of religion, particularly in context of Islam in the Qur'an. In context of human nature, particularly in your case, it is only secular believing (a loose term) and not "eeman" in precise sense that is linked to 6 pillars of belief.

Quote:
Your problem is you deliberately ignore the concepts of strict and loose in relation to generic belief and believing.
The problem you have is that you are mixing up "eeman" (a precise term) with secular and loose believing. You are complaining that I do not think the way you think (believe as in secular sense).

Quote:
I had stated I fully understand your meaning of eeman but I don't agree with it because your views on this point is too shallow and narrow without consideration for the strict and loose sense of its usage.
Mine is precise term and yours is the loose secular term. It's quite obvious.

Quote:
Receiving more messages of Allah do not automatically equate to strong eeman.
You need to understand this point. It is the person receiving the messages from Allah who is strengthened by them.

Quote:
Eeman in the strict sense is related to the 6 pillars of eeman. One must be aware of these 6 pillars and cultivate the degrees of these pillars of eeman to a sufficient level to achieve a strong state of eeman.
Are these 6 pillars, (a) "pillars of eeman" or "pillars of belief"?

Quote:
I have to say this is a dumb view.
It is quite easily understand when a person is angry in the normal sense when they display the elements of anger within them. Therefore to know whether is person is generally angry, just look for the obvious signs.
But for one to assess the "state of anger" within a person we need to be specific and more details in assessing the various elements of anger in that person.
One can compare the following features of anger in a person;
1. Redness of face
2. Facial responses
3. Body language
4. Physiological responses
5. Neurological response
6. Other criteria
Therefore, it is the "state of that person" rather than the "state of anger"

Quote:
It is more difficult to assess the state of eeman in a person but it can be done.
You can assess the "strength of person in eeman" but you are not going to assess the "state of eeman" when you do not even know anything about eeman in precise term.

Quote:
I am familiar with the concept of generic belief in theological from the psychological and neuroscientific point of view.
But you are not familiar with precise term "eeman" in the Qur'anic point of view.

Quote:
I bet you do not understand what is happening in your brain when you first has eeman [loose] and eeman-strict [if you have any].
I don't bet; it is not allowed in Islam. Therefore, no point in you betying with me.
As for what happens to one's brain when he has eeman for the first time, it can be judged by the verse 49:14. You still haven't learnt from this verse. The verse is telling you that believing (loose secular term) can enter your "brain" but the precise term "eeman" enters your "heart".

Understand the difference?
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You do not!
Allah was sending down more ayyat (verses) so that those with eeman would become stronger in their eeman. That's how one has peace, tranguility and contentment in his heart. The person is stronger in eeman.
Allah sending more ayyat??
You cannot be that ignorant.
In general Allah had already sent the complete and perfected Quran via Muhammad, so what more ayyat [verses] are to be sent by Allah.

There are other verses [48:4, 48:26, 16:80] where Allah sent his Sakina to give Muslims peace, assurance and confidence to deal with the problem on hand.
Obviously this is dependent on the state or degree of eeman [strict] the Muslims has.

Quote:
You are missing the point in your ignorance of eeman. Faith and belief are not the same thing. Previously you have been implying that "believe" is eeman and the person doing the believing is Mumin. So what is eeman, "believe", "faith or "belief"?
We have gone through this before.
Faith and belief are the same in the following sense,
Faith = beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
So how can you insist faith and belief are not the same thing.

Eeman can be belief [faith = believe in beliefs without proofs nor reasons] in the strict or loose sense.
Eeman in the strict sense is from a mu'min [strict] who has sufficient degree of eeman from performing the 6 pillars of eeman.

Quote:
Concept of eeman is not in context of human nature but in context of religion, particularly in context of Islam in the Qur'an. In context of human nature, particularly in your case, it is only secular believing (a loose term) and not "eeman" in precise sense that is linked to 6 pillars of belief.
I have explained this in another post.
The first thing is you must recognized there are terms that are used in the strict or loose sense whether it is religious or secular.

Quote:
The problem you have is that you are mixing up "eeman" (a precise term) with secular and loose believing. You are complaining that I do not think the way you think (believe as in secular sense).

Mine is precise term and yours is the loose secular term. It's quite obvious.

You need to understand this point. It is the person receiving the messages from Allah who is strengthened by them.

Are these 6 pillars, (a) "pillars of eeman" or "pillars of belief"?

Therefore, it is the "state of that person" rather than the "state of anger"

You can assess the "strength of person in eeman" but you are not going to assess the "state of eeman" when you do not even know anything about eeman in precise term.

But you are not familiar with precise term "eeman" in the Qur'anic point of view.

I don't bet; it is not allowed in Islam. Therefore, no point in you betying with me.
As for what happens to one's brain when he has eeman for the first time, it can be judged by the verse 49:14. You still haven't learnt from this verse. The verse is telling you that believing (loose secular term) can enter your "brain" but the precise term "eeman" enters your "heart".

Understand the difference?
Here is my explanation on your confusion between eeman in the strict and loose sense plus when eeman can relate to the secular.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43750246-post74.html

"Eeman" when used in the general or loose sense is the same as the generic belief in any language [English or otherwise]. In this case eeman [loose] is the same as yusaddiq [re your term].
The Quran used the term eeman [believe, faith] in the strict and loose sense and one can detect that within its appropriate context.

But when eeman is used in the strict sense, then it relate only to Islam & Quran and nothing else.
In this case eeman [strict] must be qualified with the main [6 less or more] pillars of eeman from the Quran.
Thus in English we can define eeman as belief or faith in the strict sense that must be accompanied by elements of the 6 pillars of eeman.
Because eeman [strict] is only confined to Islam and the Quran, we cannot use eeman [strict] for any other purpose because others belief do not entailed the 6 pillars of eeman.

What is critical here is to take into account the strict and loose sense of eeman.

We can use eeman in the loose sense for Christianity which is faith in the loose sense.
But we cannot use eeman in the strict sense for Christianity because there are no 6 pillars of eeman [to that effect] in the NT.
In the stricter sense of belief and faith in Christianity, it is called "grace" or some other term which is specific only to Christianity.

Btw, faith and belief which are verifiable in the secular sense is objective 'knowledge' as in scientific empirical knowledge which can be testable and repeatable by any one who want to do it.
Technically [normally not done] we can even use eeman [belief in the loose sense] for scientific knowledge but we cannot use eeman [strict] sense for scientific knowledge.

Get my point?
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Old 04-18-2016, 01:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Faith and belief are the same in the following sense,
Faith = beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
So how can you insist faith and belief are not the same thing.
O.K. So in your understanding "faith" and "belief" is the same thing.

Quote:
Eeman can be belief [faith = believe in beliefs without proofs nor reasons] in the strict or loose sense.
O.K. So in your understanding " faith" and "belief" and "eeman" is the same thing. And what about "believe" that you had regarded as "eeman" in the past? That makes "faith", "belief", "eeman" and "believe" as the same thing. It's getting more interesting to know that just one precise term is known by 4 different terms and in 8 different senses (including loose and strict).

Quote:
Eeman in the strict sense is from a mu'min [strict] who has sufficient degree of eeman from performing the 6 pillars of eeman.
Give us some examples of the verses from the Qur'an in which :"eeman" is used in loose term and some verses of the Qur'an in which "eeman" is used in strict term. Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-18-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow LIIf your desire is to understand how Muslims understand Islam, you have to look at the opinions of every Muslim.
What???

Look, I have given many links to show all the Islamic scholars and other Muslims support my view of what is eeman re Mu'min and eeman [strict].

Note post #11 in this thread and some later posts elsewhere [got to find them] with the various links;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43534438-post11.html
Have you seen any like these?


Imân is one of the most common words of the Muslim vocabulary. It is often translated as faith, belief, or conviction. At its most basic meaning, imân is belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree. Imân is considered the most important boundary in human life, for it draws the line imanbetween two of the most disparate conditions a person will ever confront: between belief and disbelief; morality and capriciousness; and, ultimately, Heaven and Hell. Anyone who replaces [his] faith with disbelief has strayed away from the straight way (Quran, 2:108); Those who sell God’s covenant and their faith for a small price shall have no share [of Paradise in] the Hereafter (Quran, 3:77).
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman

The meaning of Iman in the Qur’an is voluntary submission and obedience to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) and those things which are connected to Him such as the Prophetic Mission of the Prophets, the Day of Judgement, the Heavenly books and other (such) things and this is the opposite to Kufr in which all of these things or even some of them are denied and not accepted.

If the true visage of Islam is submission and attestation, then without doubt the true focal point of these two states is the ruh (spirit) and the soul of a person, and the tongue and other parts of one’s body are the places where the physical manifestations of these two states are made.

However, if the meaning of these two words is simply to show or demonstrate one’s submission and obedience even though in the heart and deep down in the soul of the person, there are no effects present - just as we find people in whose hearts there is no effect of submission or obedience, however by their words they act as if they are submitting and obedient to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) - then in this event the manifestation of submission and obedience will simply remain on their tongues. In some of the verses of the Qur’an, this sort of external or apparent form of Islam and dishonest Iman has been mentioned.

In relation to the cause of revelation of the verse under discussion, the Commentators of the Qur’an have narrated that a group of people from the tribe of Bani Asad came to the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) to ask permission to use the Zakat and they made known to the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) that they had true faith in him (they had Iman). Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) commanded the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) to say to them that, “You have accepted Islam (not Iman), since true faith has not yet entered into your hearts.”

It goes without saying that just as Iman had not entered into their hearts, so too Islam (submission) had also not entered into their hearts and their submission or acceptance of Islam was nothing more than a verbal attestation. However, why is it that the Prophet told them: “Do not say that you have true faith (Iman), rather say that you have submitted (accepted Islam)” since from the apparent point of view they had accepted Islam and Iman, however deep down inside themselves, they had neither Iman nor Islam? We will elaborate upon these points later on.
‘Islam’ and ‘Iman’ from the Point of View of the Qur’an | The Islamic Moral System: Commentary of Surah al-Hujurat | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

Iman is the soul of hearts and bodies, it is the key to happiness, it is the way of salvation in this world and the Hereafter, it sends contentment and satisfaction to the heart, and the higher a person climbs in the levels of iman the more he gets the sweet tastes of it, and his soul (the true soul) gets satisfaction from it. Rasulullah said: “three of which, if found in anyone, he gets the sweetness of iman; to make God and His Messenger dearer to him than anything else, to love a man just for the sake of Allah, s.w.t., and to hate to be back into disbelief as he would hate to be thrown into the fire.” Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim.

Basically, iman has six pillars that every Muslim has to believe in them, accept them and be fully convinced with them. Each of these six pillars requires a stand-alone article.
- See more at: http://www.gsalam.net/what-is-faith-....a4ALM4Zi.dpuf

Muslims themselves choose to translate iman as “belief,” often without realizing the potential for a misunderstanding as problematic, if not more so than the issues surrounding jihad. The reason for why a translation of iman as “belief” is so problematic is because if a Muslim thinks that when the Qur’an commands him or her to have iman, he or she need do nothing more than what is conveyed to them by the English “belief,” then he or she is in danger of a major dereliction of religious duty. Iman requires a deeper, more complete commitment to an idea than what speakers of English call “belief.”

One way to show the distinctions between the Arabic iman and the English “belief” would be to do a rigorous etymological analysis of the two words. While that might be preferable in some ways, a more simple and perhaps more powerful demonstration comes by citing a single hadith. Anas bin Malik relates that Prophet Muhammad ﷺ (peace be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim
What is Iman? | Virtual Mosque

The Qur'an contains numerous references like these:



They only are the true believers whose hearts feel submissive (and humble) when God is mentioned; and when the revelations of God are recited unto them, they (the revelations) increase and strengthen their Faith; and who trust in their Lord, establish the prayer (as enjoined on them) and spend of what We have bestowed on them (in the cause of God). Those are they who are in truth believers. For them are (high) grades (of honor) with their Lord, and a bountiful provision (Qur’an, 8:2-4).



And the believers, men and women, are protecting (and allied) friends of one another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His Messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them; verily God is Mighty, and Wise. God promises the believers, men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of God. That is the supreme felicity (Qur’an, 9:71-72).



The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of God. Such are the sincere (Qur’an, 49:15).



Besides these Qur’anic references, there are many relevant Traditions of Muhammad. For example, he says:


None of you can be a true believer unless, he loves for his fellow believer what he loves for himself.



Three qualities are the sign of sound faith, and he who acquires them can really feel the sweet taste of Faith. They are (1) to love God and his Messenger most of all, (2) to love his fellow man for the sake of God alone, and (3) to resent and resist returning to disbelief as much as he does being cast into fire.



He who believe in God and Last Day of Judgement is forbidden to cause any harm to his neighbor, is to be kind to his guests – especially the strangers, and is to say the truth or else abstain.



There are many verses and traditions like the ones cited above. But it should be borne in mind, however, that the given quotations are not and cannot be the exact words of the Qur’an and Muhammad as they sound in the Arabic Text. The reason for that is simple. No interpreter, however learned and masterful he may be, can ever convey the spiritual power and charming appeal of the Qur’an through any language. The Qur’an is – and so God made it – inimitable, and it is beyond human imagination and power to produce anything like it. What is true of the Qur’an in this respect is also true of the Traditions of Muhammad to a certain extent, because, after the Qur’an, his words are the most conclusive and eloquent.

Islam Answering | 1. The Concept of Faith (Iman)
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Have you seen any like these?


Imân is one of the most common words of the Muslim vocabulary. It is often translated as faith, belief, or conviction. At its most basic meaning, imân is belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree. Imân is considered the most important boundary in human life, for it draws the line imanbetween two of the most disparate conditions a person will ever confront: between belief and disbelief; morality and capriciousness; and, ultimately, Heaven and Hell. Anyone who replaces [his] faith with disbelief has strayed away from the straight way (Quran, 2:108); Those who sell God’s covenant and their faith for a small price shall have no share [of Paradise in] the Hereafter (Quran, 3:77).
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman

The meaning of Iman in the Qur’an is voluntary submission and obedience to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) and those things which are connected to Him such as the Prophetic Mission of the Prophets, the Day of Judgement, the Heavenly books and other (such) things and this is the opposite to Kufr in which all of these things or even some of them are denied and not accepted.

If the true visage of Islam is submission and attestation, then without doubt the true focal point of these two states is the ruh (spirit) and the soul of a person, and the tongue and other parts of one’s body are the places where the physical manifestations of these two states are made.

However, if the meaning of these two words is simply to show or demonstrate one’s submission and obedience even though in the heart and deep down in the soul of the person, there are no effects present - just as we find people in whose hearts there is no effect of submission or obedience, however by their words they act as if they are submitting and obedient to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) - then in this event the manifestation of submission and obedience will simply remain on their tongues. In some of the verses of the Qur’an, this sort of external or apparent form of Islam and dishonest Iman has been mentioned.

In relation to the cause of revelation of the verse under discussion, the Commentators of the Qur’an have narrated that a group of people from the tribe of Bani Asad came to the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) to ask permission to use the Zakat and they made known to the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) that they had true faith in him (they had Iman). Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) commanded the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny) to say to them that, “You have accepted Islam (not Iman), since true faith has not yet entered into your hearts.”

It goes without saying that just as Iman had not entered into their hearts, so too Islam (submission) had also not entered into their hearts and their submission or acceptance of Islam was nothing more than a verbal attestation. However, why is it that the Prophet told them: “Do not say that you have true faith (Iman), rather say that you have submitted (accepted Islam)” since from the apparent point of view they had accepted Islam and Iman, however deep down inside themselves, they had neither Iman nor Islam? We will elaborate upon these points later on.
‘Islam’ and ‘Iman’ from the Point of View of the Qur’an | The Islamic Moral System: Commentary of Surah al-Hujurat | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

Iman is the soul of hearts and bodies, it is the key to happiness, it is the way of salvation in this world and the Hereafter, it sends contentment and satisfaction to the heart, and the higher a person climbs in the levels of iman the more he gets the sweet tastes of it, and his soul (the true soul) gets satisfaction from it. Rasulullah said: “three of which, if found in anyone, he gets the sweetness of iman; to make God and His Messenger dearer to him than anything else, to love a man just for the sake of Allah, s.w.t., and to hate to be back into disbelief as he would hate to be thrown into the fire.” Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim.

Basically, iman has six pillars that every Muslim has to believe in them, accept them and be fully convinced with them. Each of these six pillars requires a stand-alone article.
- See more at: http://www.gsalam.net/what-is-faith-....a4ALM4Zi.dpuf

Muslims themselves choose to translate iman as “belief,” often without realizing the potential for a misunderstanding as problematic, if not more so than the issues surrounding jihad. The reason for why a translation of iman as “belief” is so problematic is because if a Muslim thinks that when the Qur’an commands him or her to have iman, he or she need do nothing more than what is conveyed to them by the English “belief,” then he or she is in danger of a major dereliction of religious duty. Iman requires a deeper, more complete commitment to an idea than what speakers of English call “belief.”

One way to show the distinctions between the Arabic iman and the English “belief” would be to do a rigorous etymological analysis of the two words. While that might be preferable in some ways, a more simple and perhaps more powerful demonstration comes by citing a single hadith. Anas bin Malik relates that Prophet Muhammad ﷺ (peace be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim
What is Iman? | Virtual Mosque

The Qur'an contains numerous references like these:



They only are the true believers whose hearts feel submissive (and humble) when God is mentioned; and when the revelations of God are recited unto them, they (the revelations) increase and strengthen their Faith; and who trust in their Lord, establish the prayer (as enjoined on them) and spend of what We have bestowed on them (in the cause of God). Those are they who are in truth believers. For them are (high) grades (of honor) with their Lord, and a bountiful provision (Qur’an, 8:2-4).



And the believers, men and women, are protecting (and allied) friends of one another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His Messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them; verily God is Mighty, and Wise. God promises the believers, men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of God. That is the supreme felicity (Qur’an, 9:71-72).



The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of God. Such are the sincere (Qur’an, 49:15).



Besides these Qur’anic references, there are many relevant Traditions of Muhammad. For example, he says:


None of you can be a true believer unless, he loves for his fellow believer what he loves for himself.



Three qualities are the sign of sound faith, and he who acquires them can really feel the sweet taste of Faith. They are (1) to love God and his Messenger most of all, (2) to love his fellow man for the sake of God alone, and (3) to resent and resist returning to disbelief as much as he does being cast into fire.



He who believe in God and Last Day of Judgement is forbidden to cause any harm to his neighbor, is to be kind to his guests – especially the strangers, and is to say the truth or else abstain.



There are many verses and traditions like the ones cited above. But it should be borne in mind, however, that the given quotations are not and cannot be the exact words of the Qur’an and Muhammad as they sound in the Arabic Text. The reason for that is simple. No interpreter, however learned and masterful he may be, can ever convey the spiritual power and charming appeal of the Qur’an through any language. The Qur’an is – and so God made it – inimitable, and it is beyond human imagination and power to produce anything like it. What is true of the Qur’an in this respect is also true of the Traditions of Muhammad to a certain extent, because, after the Qur’an, his words are the most conclusive and eloquent.

Islam Answering | 1. The Concept of Faith (Iman)
I have read many of the above articles and others and they agree with my views.

Where there is some difference, it is question of views the term eeman in the strict and loose sense.
Therefore if Muslims simply refer to eeman in the loose sense in all contexts then it can be misleading.
To understand the meaning of eeman a Muslim must take note whether it is used in the strict or loose sense.

Those who insist one must know Arabic to understand the Quran is mere ignorant based on false arrogance. Knowing Arabic is an advantage in learning the Quran but it is not a MUST.
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Old 04-19-2016, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have read many of the above articles and others and they agree with my views.

Where there is some difference, it is question of views the term eeman in the strict and loose sense.
Therefore if Muslims simply refer to eeman in the loose sense in all contexts then it can be misleading.
To understand the meaning of eeman a Muslim must take note whether it is used in the strict or loose sense.

Those who insist one must know Arabic to understand the Quran is mere ignorant based on false arrogance. Knowing Arabic is an advantage in learning the Quran but it is not a MUST.
Except you are not going to find any Arabic Speaker of the past use Eeman outside the Qur'anic meaning. (I say past because I do not know if Eeman has been introduced into MSA {Modern Standard Arabic} although I have not found it used in MSA As best as I can tell that in Arabic it is unique as it is used only in the Qur'an or when quoting the Qur'an.

The word Eeman while having been used in the Ancient Semitic languages as a religious term apparently did not enter Arabic until the revelation of the Qur'an as Muhammad had to define it's meaning.

Quote:
In a hadith, Muhammad defined iman as "a knowledge in the heart, a voicing with the tongue, and an activity with the limbs."[citation needed] Though faith is knowing, saying and doing. Faith is confidence in a truth which is real not a supposed one, so when people have confidence to the truth, they submit themselves to that truth. It is not sufficient just to know the truth, but the recognition of the heart should be expressed by the tongue which is the manifestation of the intelligence and at last to reflect this confidence in their activities.[6]

Hamiduddin Farahi, while explaining the meaning of Imān in his exegesis, wrote:

The root of imān is amn. It is used in various shades of meaning.[7] One of its derivatives is mu'min, which is among the noble names of Allah because He gives peace to those who seek His refuge. This word is also an ancient religious term. Hence the certitude which exists with humility, trust and all the conditions and corollaries of adherence to a view is called imān and he who professes faith in Allah, in His signs and in His directives and submits himself to Him and is pleased with all His decisions is a mu'min.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_%28concept%29
Looking through my limited number of Arabic texts I do not find the word Eeman being used except in relation to the Qur'an. also it should be noted that often the word Eeman has had to have been Explained to First time readers of the Qur'an. Indicating it was not a word used in the vernacular of secular world. i am not certain if it has entered into MSA. But I do know that in MSA the sentence "It is my belief" is translated as وفي اعتقادي

wafi aietiqadi

Point being: trying to translate Eeman as belief is like trying to translate Baptism as Swimming.


I agree one does not need to understand Arabic to understand the Message of the Qur'an, but to understand the the Qur'an one needs to understand Arabic. The inability to comprehend the meaning of Eeman strongly verifies that.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Except you are not going to find any Arabic Speaker of the past use Eeman outside the Qur'anic meaning. (I say past because I do not know if Eeman has been introduced into MSA {Modern Standard Arabic} although I have not found it used in MSA As best as I can tell that in Arabic it is unique as it is used only in the Qur'an or when quoting the Qur'an.

The word Eeman while having been used in the Ancient Semitic languages as a religious term apparently did not enter Arabic until the revelation of the Qur'an as Muhammad had to define it's meaning.



Looking through my limited number of Arabic texts I do not find the word Eeman being used except in relation to the Qur'an. also it should be noted that often the word Eeman has had to have been Explained to First time readers of the Qur'an. Indicating it was not a word used in the vernacular of secular world. i am not certain if it has entered into MSA. But I do know that in MSA the sentence "It is my belief" is translated as وفي اعتقادي

wafi aietiqadi

Point being: trying to translate Eeman as belief is like trying to translate Baptism as Swimming.


I agree one does not need to understand Arabic to understand the Message of the Qur'an, but to understand the the Qur'an one needs to understand Arabic. The inability to comprehend the meaning of Eeman strongly verifies that.
Posted in another thread,

The usefulness of a word itself is merely a tool of communicating reality.
Words are merely the semantic representations using alphabets, words are not the reality it is supposed to represent.
In this case the word is not critical but what is critical is what is the reality that the word was meant to convey.

The word 'eeman' is not critical, I could use the word 'Beeman' or xyz but the reality of what is intended ia still the same, i.e.

BEeman [strict] is:
=generic belief [strict] + specific* Islamic elements of belief.
* specific = elements of the pillars of Beeman.

BEeman [loose] is:
=generic belief [loose] + general* Islamic elements of belief.
* general = any thing loosely related to Islam.

I can even change 'belief' to 'oolief' or any word, but the essence must be

-the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining "oolief" is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
The mental process of 'belief' or whatever the word is the same as it exists in all human being and its usage can be in the strict and loose form depending on its degree of the mental state.

Therefore it does not matter whether 'eeman' in this case was used before the Quran or after the Quran. What is critical is the generic mental process that is referred to plus the specific Islamic forms.

Quote:
I agree one does not need to understand Arabic to understand the Message of the Qur'an, but to understand the Qur'an one needs to understand Arabic. The inability to comprehend the meaning of Eeman strongly verifies that.
The above is bad logic, i.e. circular.

The root of eeman [ا م ن] is used 1000++ times in the Quran.
All the 46 English translators translate eeman as belief, believers, believe depending on the context.
Therefore you are insulting these translators including your favored Asad for making the wrong translations without qualifications.

Allah insists the Quran is easy to understand, therefore for you to claim eeman [used 1000+ in various context] is a not easy understand also imply you are insulting Allah.

I am very certain the problem of understanding and confusion is on your part rather than Allah's or the 46 English translators I refer to.
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