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Old 04-20-2016, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Posted in another thread,

The usefulness of a word itself is merely a tool of communicating reality.
Words are merely the semantic representations using alphabets, words are not the reality it is supposed to represent.
In this case the word is not critical but what is critical is what is the reality that the word was meant to convey.

The word 'eeman' is not critical, I could use the word 'Beeman' or xyz but the reality of what is intended ia still the same, i.e.

BEeman [strict] is:
=generic belief [strict] + specific* Islamic elements of belief.
* specific = elements of the pillars of Beeman.

BEeman [loose] is:
=generic belief [loose] + general* Islamic elements of belief.
* general = any thing loosely related to Islam.

I can even change 'belief' to 'oolief' or any word, but the essence must be

-the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining "oolief" is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
The mental process of 'belief' or whatever the word is the same as it exists in all human being and its usage can be in the strict and loose form depending on its degree of the mental state.

Therefore it does not matter whether 'eeman' in this case was used before the Quran or after the Quran. What is critical is the generic mental process that is referred to plus the specific Islamic forms.

The above is bad logic, i.e. circular.

The root of eeman [ا م ن] is used 1000++ times in the Quran.
All the 46 English translators translate eeman as belief, believers, believe depending on the context.
Therefore you are insulting these translators including your favored Asad for making the wrong translations without qualifications.

Allah insists the Quran is easy to understand, therefore for you to claim eeman [used 1000+ in various context] is a not easy understand also imply you are insulting Allah.

I am very certain the problem of understanding and confusion is on your part rather than Allah's or the 46 English translators I refer to.
While Eeman means "Belief in Allaah(swt) and the 6 pillars of Faith" I do not think there is an English work that has that definition. Translators often have to approximate and use words the expected audience can comprehend. Personally I feel the better choice for translators would be to not translate words that do not have an exact English Counter part but to add a Glossary at the back with the definitions of the words that do not Translate. There are very many besides Eeman such as Wali, Jihad, Islam, Muslim mu'min, even the names Muhammad and Allah.

The Message of the The Qur'an is veray easy to understand. It is simply "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped." That is repeated multiple times. That is all any one needs to understand. That is the Qur'an. They Qur'an is written for all people,meaning that anyone who reads can understand the Qur'an is informing us there is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped.

Now as to every thing else they are guides and signs some are intended to be understood only by specific people. Others are probaly only understood by Muhammad(saws) the best example be the stand alone letters some of the Surat begin with. Possibly they are there to verify to us that Muhammad(saws) did not author the Qur'an (This is pure conjecture only part) as it is known He could not read ot write and probably did not know the names of the letters. We also know their were surat that were not included in the Qur'an as they were for Muhammad(saws) alone and not to be known to anyone else.


As long as you entertain the belief that Eeman means Belief you will never grasp the meaning of Eeman.
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While Eeman means "Belief in Allaah(swt) and the 6 pillars of Faith" I do not think there is an English work that has that definition. Translators often have to approximate and use words the expected audience can comprehend. Personally I feel the better choice for translators would be to not translate words that do not have an exact English Counter part but to add a Glossary at the back with the definitions of the words that do not Translate. There are very many besides Eeman such as Wali, Jihad, Islam, Muslim mu'min, even the names Muhammad and Allah.

The Message of the The Qur'an is veray easy to understand. It is simply "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped." That is repeated multiple times. That is all any one needs to understand. That is the Qur'an. They Qur'an is written for all people,meaning that anyone who reads can understand the Qur'an is informing us there is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped.

Now as to every thing else they are guides and signs some are intended to be understood only by specific people. Others are probaly only understood by Muhammad(saws) the best example be the stand alone letters some of the Surat begin with. Possibly they are there to verify to us that Muhammad(saws) did not author the Qur'an (This is pure conjecture only part) as it is known He could not read ot write and probably did not know the names of the letters. We also know their were surat that were not included in the Qur'an as they were for Muhammad(saws) alone and not to be known to anyone else.


As long as you entertain the belief that Eeman means Belief you will never grasp the meaning of Eeman.
I did not insist "eeman = belief" in English in the absolute sense.

As I had demonstrated when we state eeman = belief, we must explain and qualify that eeman [strict] must be associated with Islamic elements, i.e. the 6 pillars of Islam.

It would be wrong to state "eeman = belief" period. [i.e. without any explanations and qualifications]

I still think we can translate those terms in the Quran that has multiple meanings in various contexts.
However, there should be a note to it regarding what it really meant.
This problem is common with all translations between different language. What is critical is the translators must explain and provide notes where there are multiple meanings to a term.
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I did not insist "eeman = belief" in English in the absolute sense.

As I had demonstrated when we state eeman = belief, we must explain and qualify that eeman [strict] must be associated with Islamic elements, i.e. the 6 pillars of Islam.

It would be wrong to state "eeman = belief" period. [i.e. without any explanations and qualifications]

I still think we can translate those terms in the Quran that has multiple meanings in various contexts.
However, there should be a note to it regarding what it really meant.
This problem is common with all translations between different language. What is critical is the translators must explain and provide notes where there are multiple meanings to a term.



Simple Definition of belief

: a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true

: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable

: a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone


Full Definition of belief

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Belief | Definition of Belief by Merriam-Webster

None of those match the definition of Eeman which is: belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.

It is not the same as definition 2 The Definition of Eeman is not "Something believed"

it is the something that is believed.
The root word for Eeman is Amana, which has quite a few meanings:

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.)
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman
Notice the definition of Amana is not related to beleif. However you may see the relationship to Eeman HINT: It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah.

Needless to say there are very many words that have the root Amana, some not even having any apparant relationship with each other. Such as Ameen(Amen in English) which has little if any relationship to Eeman.

الامانة Amana -as used in MSA translates to English as Honesty.

To use an analogy you might understand.

If tyou believe we should live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) Then the Golden Rule is your belief, but Golden Rule does not mean belief.

Likewise Eeman is an Islamic Belief, but it does not mean belief.
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Old 04-22-2016, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Simple Definition of belief

: a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true

: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable

: a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone


Full Definition of belief

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3
: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Belief | Definition of Belief by Merriam-Webster

None of those match the definition of Eeman which is: belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.

It is not the same as definition 2 The Definition of Eeman is not "Something believed"

it is the something that is believed.
The root word for Eeman is Amana, which has quite a few meanings:

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.)
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman
Notice the definition of Amana is not related to beleif. However you may see the relationship to Eeman HINT: It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah.

Needless to say there are very many words that have the root Amana, some not even having any apparant relationship with each other. Such as Ameen(Amen in English) which has little if any relationship to Eeman.

الامانة Amana -as used in MSA translates to English as Honesty.

To use an analogy you might understand.

If tyou believe we should live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) Then the Golden Rule is your belief, but Golden Rule does not mean belief.

Likewise Eeman is an Islamic Belief, but it does not mean belief.
Posted to the following thread for relevance:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43798103-post6.html
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Old 11-25-2016, 11:44 PM
 
23 posts, read 8,677 times
Reputation: 10
Islam teaches that God has sent prophets to humankind, in different times and places, to communicate His message. Since the beginning of time, God has sent His guidance through these select people. They were human beings who taught the people around them about faith in One Huge God, and how to walk on the path of morality.
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