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Old 04-15-2016, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise
The above verse 48:4 indicates that the faith [belief, eeman] of a Muslim is incremental.

Therefore any Muslim who want to progress has to work on the 6 pillars of eeman to cultivate faith and thus Allah will add faith upon faith on a continual basis to establish strong faith.
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise
The above verse 48:4 indicates that the faith [belief, eeman] of a Muslim is incremental.

Therefore any Muslim who want to progress has to work on the 6 pillars of eeman to cultivate faith and thus Allah will add faith upon faith on a continual basis to establish strong faith.
Eeman is not a substance that you add in more of the same in it. Eeman is conviction in one's heart about Allah that can be consolidated with experience and one can become stronger in eeman but it is not something that you can make double or half in quantiy.
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:08 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise
The above verse 48:4 indicates that the faith [belief, eeman] of a Muslim is incremental.

Therefore any Muslim who want to progress has to work on the 6 pillars of eeman to cultivate faith and thus Allah will add faith upon faith on a continual basis to establish strong faith.
It is a bit confusing. The verse says "that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith." So it seems it is the responsibility of the Muslims to keep adding to the amount of faith they have, not Allah. But since Allah controls all, what role does Allah play in adding to faith?

There are verses that talk about how Allah confuses and tricks and manipulates the nonbelievers. Does he also do this to believers to manipulate the changes in the amount of faith they have?

19:83 Seest thou not that We have set the devils on the disbelievers to confound them with confusion?

6:35 If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!

4:142 Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them.

14:4 And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
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Old 04-15-2016, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise
The above verse 48:4 indicates that the faith [belief, eeman] of a Muslim is incremental.

Therefore any Muslim who want to progress has to work on the 6 pillars of eeman to cultivate faith and thus Allah will add faith upon faith on a continual basis to establish strong faith.
With eeman being an intangible,abstract quality the concept of increasing it in quantity borders on ridiculous. One can not increase nor decrease the quantity of an abstraction,one can only increase the strength, value or quality of it.

To add to eeman necessitates the concept of firming it making it stronger,not a concept of quantity as eeman is not physical. It is a virtue, or quality.
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Eeman is not a substance that you add in more of the same in it. Eeman is conviction in one's heart about Allah that can be consolidated with experience and one can become stronger in eeman but it is not something that you can make double or half in quantity.
You are so ignorant of reality and human nature.
In addition you do not seem to trust what Allah is stating in that verse, i.e. Allah will provide the conditions for a Muslim to increase [keep adding] his faith in Allah.

Eeman [believing to belief] is a mental state conditioned by mental processes.
Emotions like hate, love, anger are mental states.
Can emotions like hate, love, anger, and the like increase in degrees?
The principle is "All variables of reality has intensity."
If you understand this principle, you would not have raised such a doubt and question.

I am sure if have experienced anger [any other emotions and mental states] before, you will understand how your state of anger can increase or decrease depending on various circumstances.

Mental states can increase or decrease but to measure whether it is half or double is more complex and we can only estimate it.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-15-2016 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
It is a bit confusing. The verse says "that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith." So it seems it is the responsibility of the Muslims to keep adding to the amount of faith they have, not Allah. But since Allah controls all, what role does Allah play in adding to faith?

There are verses that talk about how Allah confuses and tricks and manipulates the nonbelievers. Does he also do this to believers to manipulate the changes in the amount of faith they have?

19:83 Seest thou not that We have set the devils on the disbelievers to confound them with confusion?

6:35 If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!

4:142 Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them.

14:4 And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
The mentioned Allah provide the conditions so that Muslims can add faith to their faith.

Point here is when the Muslim's faith increases it would mean they will have greater faith in carrying out Allah's commands which could include whatever is good and whatever is negative [the evil laden elements].

Last edited by Continuum; 04-15-2016 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
With eeman being an intangible,abstract quality the concept of increasing it in quantity borders on ridiculous. One can not increase nor decrease the quantity of an abstraction,one can only increase the strength, value or quality of it.

To add to eeman necessitates the concept of firming it making it stronger,not a concept of quantity as eeman is not physical. It is a virtue, or quality.
It is not me who is saying that, but it was stated by Allah. It seem you are another Muslim who do not trust Allah or his power to do anything and condemned it as ridiculous.

IF Allah who is all powerful state Muslims can add more faith to their existing faith, then one has to take Allah's words for it from the perspective of the Quran.

In 48:4 Allah did not state 'adding quantity' but adding faith which is qualitative.
In that context of 'adding' it meant there is a process of incremental state of faith.

While a Muslim may not be able to know exactly how Allah measures qualitative eeman etc., humans can estimate the changes in one's faith or any qualitative elements via Qualitative Research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_research
Quote:
Qualitative Research is a method of inquiry employed in many different and social academic disciplines, including in the social sciences and natural sciences, but also in market research, in business, and other contexts including service demonstrations by non-profits.
In Qualitative Research one has to do Qualitative Measures'


Quote:
Qualitative Measures
Qualitative research is a vast and complex area of methodology that can easily take up whole textbooks on its own. The purpose of this section is to introduce you to the idea of qualitative research (and how it is related to quantitative research) and give you some orientation to the major types of qualitative research data, approaches and methods.
Qualitative Measures
Therefore we can measure the qualitative state of eeman [strict] using qualitative research and qualitative measures. While it will not be exactly like how Allah will do it, we can produce best estimate subject to qualified-limitations.

Note there are even methods that measure values of ethics, i.e. good or evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiology
The measurements will not be precise but they are useful when used with an understanding of their limitations.

Agree?
Any counter to the above?

Note I am very well verse [in depth and width] in this subject and it is not likely you will find holes in my views in general and in relation to the concept of Islamic eeman.
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Old 04-16-2016, 04:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are so ignorant of reality and human nature.
Only an ignorant person won't understand what I have been stating.

Quote:
In addition you do not seem to trust what Allah is stating in that verse, i.e. Allah will provide the conditions for a Muslim to increase [keep adding] his faith in Allah.
You do not understand that Allah will not provide the conditions for Muslims; He has already provided the conditions. You are forgetting that when such verses were being revealed, not ALL the verses of the Qur'an had been revealed yet but ALL the verses had been revealed later on.

Quote:
Eeman [believing to belief] is a mental state conditioned by mental processes.
Emotions like hate, love, anger are mental states.
Can emotions like hate, love, anger, and the like increase in degrees?
The principle is "All variables of reality has intensity."
If you understand this principle, you would not have raised such a doubt and question.
Did you even understand what I had stated?

Quote:
I am sure if have experienced anger [any other emotions and mental states] before, you will understand how your state of anger can increase or decrease depending on various circumstances.
Yes, "your state of anger" increases. It is "your state" that changes. The same way your state in faith (eeman) changes as you learn more from more guidance from the verses.

Quote:
Mental states can increase or decrease but to measure whether it is half or double is more complex and we can only estimate it.
Here you are not talking about "eeman" but someone's "state" in eeman. This is the same as someone being stronger or weaker in eeman that I have been stating but you were unable to understand.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Only an ignorant person won't understand what I have been stating.

You do not understand that Allah will not provide the conditions for Muslims; He has already provided the conditions. You are forgetting that when such verses were being revealed, not ALL the verses of the Qur'an had been revealed yet but ALL the verses had been revealed later on.
You are the one who is ignorant of what is stated by Allah. Note the verse again.
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
Yes, Allah had provided conditions but the additional condition in this case is -Allah sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers.


Quote:
Did you even understand what I had stated?
As I had mentioned many times, I fully understand what you have stated, but I do not agree with your points because they are shallow, narrow, messy and not well thought.
Note I stated you don't understand human nature and psychology.

Quote:
Yes, "your state of anger" increases. It is "your state" that changes. The same way your state in faith (eeman) changes as you learn more from more guidance from the verses.
Note the state of anger represent 'anger' in the same person.
Therefore if one's 'state of anger' changed, then one's anger changes [increase or decrease].
When I say he is angry, that is in the loose term, but to know the degree and in the strict sense, we need to gauge the "state of anger" in that person.
I don't think you know and understand what is really going in your brain when and if you are in a state of anger or any other emotions.

Quote:
Here you are not talking about "eeman" but someone's "state" in eeman. This is the same as someone being stronger or weaker in eeman that I have been stating but you were unable to understand.
There is no difference between one 'state of eeman' and 'eeman' in this context.
When have you ever state there is strong or weak eeman? - show me the post?
What you have been asserting at the time is eeman is a flat thing in all Muslims.
This is why I specifically raised this thread to show your flawed thinking and lack of understanding of the various meanings of eeman in the context of the whole Quran.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are the one who is ignorant of what is stated by Allah. Note the verse again.
48:4. He [Allah] it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers [Muslims] that they [Muslims] might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
Yes, Allah had provided conditions but the additional condition in this case is -Allah sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers.


As I had mentioned many times, I fully understand what you have stated, but I do not agree with your points because they are shallow, narrow, messy and not well thought.
Note I stated you don't understand human nature and psychology.

Note the state of anger represent 'anger' in the same person.
Therefore if one's 'state of anger' changed, then one's anger changes [increase or decrease].
When I say he is angry, that is in the loose term, but to know the degree and in the strict sense, we need to gauge the "state of anger" in that person.
I don't think you know and understand what is really going in your brain when and if you are in a state of anger or any other emotions.

There is no difference between one 'state of eeman' and 'eeman' in this context.
When have you ever state there is strong or weak eeman? - show me the post?
What you have been asserting at the time is eeman is a flat thing in all Muslims.
This is why I specifically raised this thread to show your flawed thinking and lack of understanding of the various meanings of eeman in the context of the whole Quran.
So far what you have shown is your concept of eeman.

You have gotten opinions of 2 Muslims both of whom have a view that differs from yours.

If your desire is to understand how Muslims understand Islam, you have to look at the opinions of every Muslim. Definitions are derived by the usage of the majority. Which is why dictionaries become outdated Many words in an English dictionary had a different meaning 100 years ago. Dictionaries over 200 years ago have very little resemblance to today's definitions. To understand Islam one needs to understand how Muslims define Islamic terms, not how a dictionary defines them
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