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Old 04-20-2016, 06:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
'Belief [? in what sense] in something is not Eaman [? in what sense] what is being believed [? in what sense] is Eeman [? in what sense], that being knowing God(swt) exists.
"God exsts" is "belief". It is religious, Islamic and precise "belief". The conviction deep down in the heart that God exists is "eeman" in precise term. Therefore, "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".

Quote:
It is ridiculous to state 'what is being believed is Eeman.
What is being believed, i.e. you say is 'God'
But Allah stated eeman can be added 48:4,
There your point is wrong because one cannot increase God.
I can understand what is being expressed by brother Woodrow but perhaps he could choose better words to make you understand. He is correct in trying to say that neither belief is eeman nor eeman is belief. If he adds that eeman is about beliefs then it would make better sense (to me) but it will still not make any sense to you.

Quote:
Let me talk sense, i.e.

1. A person believe [eeman-weak] [mumin -loose] in God, i.e. Allah
A person has eeman (precise term) in existence God and becomes a Mu'min (precise term). "Existence of God" is "belief" and not "eeman". It is conviction in the heart that is "eeman", my eeman, brother Woodrow's eeman and every Mu'min's eeman.

Quote:
2. A person believe [eeman weak] in Allah as the only God and Muhammad is his messenger.
There is no such thing as weak eeman in Allah and His messenger Muhammad. One either has eeman (precise term) in Allah and that Muhammad is His messenger (thus the Qur'an is from Allah) or one does not have such eeman.

Quote:
3. The person affirmed the Shahada and submit [islam-strict] to Allah thus entering into a covenant with Allah in accordance to terms and conditions in the Quran and thus become a Muslim.
A person proclaims his eeman in Allah as the only Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger (the fundamental beiief of Muslims). The only part in this witnessing that is regarded as submitting is that it is commanded in the Qur'an that one should believe so. Therefore, believing so and proclaiming so is also submitting to Allah.

The covenant is not the same as Shahada but expressed in the Qur'an as "we hear and we obey". This is hearing the commands in the Qur'an and obeying them. Doing so is (Islam) keeping the commandments and complying with the terms of the covenant. All this cannot be done without eeman in the heart. It is this conviction in the heart rather than loose secular type of believing or even tenets of Islam (beliefs) that is eeman.

Quote:
4. A Muslim continue to believe [loose], practices the pillars of Islam and learn more about Allah from the Quran. This increases his eeman [strict] as per 48:4 by engaging and practicing more intense worshipping and devotion based on the pillars of eeman [strict].
A Muslim does not believe in Allah loosely. One either believes in Allah or does not believe in Allah. There is no loose believing except in secular sense. In religious sense, one is either strong in eeman or weak in eeman. The strong in eeman is extremely unlikely to do any evll act. But weak in eeman will do less good acts than the strong in eeman. Beliefs of each would be the same as in 6 pillars.

Quote:
5. In time that Muslim [strict] strengthen his eeman [strict] and qualify as a mumin [strict] based on the pillars of eeman.[/indent]
There isn't any Muslim who does not have eeman in any of the 6 pillars (beliefs).

Quote:
The above makes a lot of sense and tie in with the strict and loose sense of Muslim, eeman, islam, mumin, believe, beliefs, faith without any problem.

Show me what is wrong with the above logic and sequence.
You can't tell the difference between "belief", "eeman", "faith" and "believe". That's why you have no choice but to rely on loose and strict terms according to YOUR thinking. The only way for you to describe loose eeman and strict eeman would be to quote the verses of the Qur'an that describe loose eeman and those for strict eeman. You can't do it because you do not have basis for your belief (loose term) regarding eeman in the Qur'an.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong! Totally wrong.
You have clearly believed (secular loose term), and claimed, that God does not exist. This is your "belief" in secular loose term. "God exists" is not secular loose term but religious term. There is no such secular term that is "God exists".
Where did I say God exists is a secular term.

Note:
Secular = not pertaining to or connected with religion.
Secular | Define Secular at Dictionary.com

indifferent =without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic: having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested.
An atheist is one who is indifferent to the concept of a God.
This is meant an atheist [non-theist] do not have an active brain process in believing 'God does not exist.'

Actually I do not believe that "God does not exist".
I believe [my mental process] theists are wrong in insisting 'God exists' and I can provide justifications for my beliefs.
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
"God exists" is "belief". It is religious, Islamic and precise "belief". The conviction deep down in the heart that God exists is "eeman" in precise term. Therefore, "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".
Denial as usual i.e. of the strict and loose term of believe and eeman.

It is nonsense to say: "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".
If eeman is about belief, then it has to do with beliefs and believing.

Point is
1. eeman [loose] is believing and beliefs in the general sense.
2. eeman [strict] is believing and beliefs related to a specific set of pillars of eeman as in the Quran.

Btw, you have not dispute my point at all.
All you have insisted blindly is eeman is not belief, not believing thus not faith.

Quote:
I can understand what is being expressed by brother Woodrow but perhaps he could choose better words to make you understand. He is correct in trying to say that neither belief is eeman nor eeman is belief. If he adds that eeman is about beliefs then it would make better sense (to me) but it will still not make any sense to you.
As I had stated above;

It is nonsense to say: "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".
If eeman is about belief, then it has to do with beliefs and believing.

If eeman is not belief, then there is no believing and faith in Islam.
Since faith = beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reason, then there is no such thing as 'faith' in Islam.

Quote:
A person has eeman (precise term) in existence God and becomes a Mu'min (precise term). "Existence of God" is "belief" and not "eeman". It is conviction in the heart that is "eeman", my eeman, brother Woodrow's eeman and every Mu'min's eeman.
This is very kindergartenish thinking when you do not take into account the term eeman in the strict [narrow, specific] and loose [wider, general] sense.

Quote:
There is no such thing as weak eeman in Allah and His messenger Muhammad. One either has eeman (precise term) in Allah and that Muhammad is His messenger (thus the Qur'an is from Allah) or one does not have such eeman.
Allah many not have specified the term 'weak' but from the context of increase/decrease, grades/degrees/ranking and meritorious rewards, one can infer there is a sense of weak and strong eeman [strict].

Quote:
A person proclaims his eeman in Allah as the only Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger (the fundamental belief of Muslims). The only part in this witnessing that is regarded as submitting is that it is commanded in the Qur'an that one should believe so. Therefore, believing so and proclaiming so is also submitting to Allah.
Again you ignore strict and loose concept of eeman because you don't want the truth of your own Islam in accordance to Allah's intent.

When a person affirmed the Shahada, s/he us submitting [islam] in the strict sense but with certain lower degree [relatively weak] of eeman [or possibly no eeman]. In this stage one may be termed a Muslim [loosely a beginner] or a mu'min [loose - weak].

Quote:
The covenant is not the same as Shahada but expressed in the Qur'an as "we hear and we obey". This is hearing the commands in the Qur'an and obeying them. Doing so is (Islam) keeping the commandments and complying with the terms of the covenant. All this cannot be done without eeman in the heart. It is this conviction in the heart rather than loose secular type of believing or even tenets of Islam (beliefs) that is eeman.
I did not say the covenant is the same as the Shahada.
The Shahada signify submission [islam -strict] a person is 'signing' a covenant/agreement/contract with Allah where the terms are in the Quran.

Quote:
A Muslim does not believe in Allah loosely. One either believes in Allah or does not believe in Allah. There is no loose believing except in secular sense. In religious sense, one is either strong in eeman or weak in eeman. The strong in eeman is extremely unlikely to do any evll act. But weak in eeman will do less good acts than the strong in eeman. Beliefs of each would be the same as in 6 pillars.
You misunderstand again. The problem is you have a weak understanding of the essential of the Quran because your belief is highly emotional and psychological.

1. I did not say a Muslim believe in Allah loosely.
2. I stated a beginner [new] Muslim believe in Allah in the loose sense. This is totally different from 1.
Quote:
There isn't any Muslim who does not have eeman in any of the 6 pillars (beliefs).
Again you have a weak understanding of the essential of the Quran.
Full eeman implied 100% achievement of the 6 pillar s of eeman.
A beginner may have 5% eeman [loose sense] but that is not sufficient to bring that Muslim to be a mu'min [strict] who need at least 50% of eeman.

Quote:
You can't tell the difference between "belief", "eeman", "faith" and "believe". That's why you have no choice but to rely on loose and strict terms according to YOUR thinking. The only way for you to describe loose eeman and strict eeman would be to quote the verses of the Qur'an that describe loose eeman and those for strict eeman. You can't do it because you do not have basis for your belief (loose term) regarding eeman in the Qur'an.
Eeman is reconcilable to belief, believing, believe, faith.
I have already provided the verses from the Quran but because you are so blind, you forget them easily and you are wasting my effort in tracking them again and again.

I had deliberately raised a thread to demonstrate eeman can be reconciled to belief, believing, believe, faith. I don't see you participating in that thread, scare to face the truth?
I have also raise this thread to discuss eeman in the strict and loose sense.
I will raise another thread 'Reconciling Eeman with 'belief.'
Unfortunately you need to brush up to understand what is belief in the realistic sense.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:16 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where did I say God exists is a secular term.
You did not say so..

Quote:
Actually I do not believe that "God does not exist".
I believe [my mental process] theists are wrong in insisting 'God exists' and I can provide justifications for my beliefs.
Whatever is your belief, you believe in it.

Theists like me do not INSIST that God exists but believe that God exists.
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:28 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is nonsense to say: "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".
If eeman is about belief, then it has to do with beliefs and believing.
Of course it is all nonsense to you because you can't understand the difference between beliefs and eeman. You have often heard about ""beliefs" but have you ever heard of "eemans"?

Eeman (not eemans) is about "beliefs" (6 pillars are beliefs and not eemans).

Quote:
Point is
1. eeman [loose] is believing and beliefs in the general sense.
You are in confused state in ths statement.

"Eeman" is definitely not "beliefs" (plural) otherwise it would be "eemans" (plural).

Quote:
2. eeman [strict] is believing and beliefs related to a specific set of pillars of eeman as in the Quran.
The 6 pillars are 6 beliefs, and not 6 eemans. And you can't understand the difference. This is what happens when you refuse to come Into the light by staying in the dark of your own sense.

Quote:
Btw, you have not dispute my point at all.
All you have insisted blindly is eeman is not belief, not believing thus not faith.
It is this mental gymnastics that you are doing is keeping you in the dark as you mix eeman, belief, faith, believing altogether (making foursome in the same bed).

Quote:
As I had stated above;

It is nonsense to say: "eeman" is not "belief" but "eeman" is about "belief".
If eeman is about belief, then it has to do with beliefs and believing.
And you can't understand the difference?

Quote:
If eeman is not belief, then there is no believing and faith in Islam.
Since faith = beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reason, then there is no such thing as 'faith' in Islam.
I can see that you are really confused. Your confusion is caused by your own faulty thinking. The faulty thinking is, there is no difference (in your mind) between "faith", "believing", "beliefs" and "eeman".

Quote:
This is very kindergartenish thinking when you do not take into account the term eeman in the strict [narrow, specific] and loose [wider, general] sense.
Why don't you realize that if a new Muslim has very weak eeman then you have no understanding of eeman at all as it had never even entered in your thinking yet even in the loose term.

Quote:
Allah many not have specified the term 'weak' but from the context of increase/decrease, grades/degrees/ranking and meritorious rewards, one can infer there is a sense of weak and strong eeman [strict].
You may sense any way you like, loose, tight, strict, weak, strong or plain nonsense but only a Mu'min has precise sense about it. Allah had made it clear in the Qur'an to Mu'mineen.

Quote:
Again you ignore strict and loose concept of eeman because you don't want the truth of your own Islam in accordance to Allah's intent.
LOL!

Quote:
When a person affirmed the Shahada, s/he us submitting [islam] in the strict sense but with certain lower degree [relatively weak] of eeman [or possibly no eeman]. In this stage one may be termed a Muslim [loosely a beginner] or a mu'min [loose - weak].
You are quite wrong in thinking so. Most, if not all, new Muslims are much stronger in their eeman than many born Muslims are. Born Muslims take it as granted but the new Muslims take it as a privilege and cherish their eeman more dearly.

Quote:
Eeman is reconcilable to belief, believing, believe, faith.
That does not mean that they are all same thing.

Quote:
I had deliberately raised a thread to demonstrate eeman can be reconciled to belief, believing, believe, faith. I don't see you participating in that thread, scare to face the truth?
I know you are trying to understand something about "eeman" but you need to understand that more threads on eeman from you are giving me impreassion that you are looking for straw that you imagine is there but is not there in reality. You are confusing yourself even more by doing so.
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:04 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I know you are trying to understand something about "eeman" but you need to understand that more threads on eeman from you are giving me impreassion that you are looking for straw that you imagine is there but is not there in reality. You are confusing yourself even more by doing so.
I have no problem understanding what is eeman in the religious & spiritual sense, the philosophical perspective and general knowledge.

Whilst "eeman" is an Arabic from the Quran, the fundamental concept is generic to all religions and spirituality, i.e. that is "belief" 'believe', 'faith' in the generic sense.

There is nothing special about "eeman."
Point is since Islam belongs to the Abrahamic family of religion, what is eeman in Islam is also present in Judaism and Christianity.
This similar concept [eeman in Islam] that is common in the Abrahamic religion is belief, believe, believing, faith.
What make eeman different is merely the different Islamic elements and terms from the Quran.

Why I have to raise so many threads is I have to simplify it as much as possible because you are so ignorant and did not understand the words of your Allah with respect to this concept of eeman. Point is right thinking matters especially to you as a Muslim where it could be matter of faster to heaven or being stuck or tarried near hell.
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Old 04-21-2016, 05:34 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have no problem understanding what is eeman in the religious & spiritual sense, the philosophical perspective and general knowledge.
Beliefs=eeman=believing=faith=believe is your belief but not your eeman. Very good! Do carry on please as you don't need my input; you already know more than Muslims in this forum know.
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Old 04-21-2016, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have no problem understanding what is eeman in the religious & spiritual sense, the philosophical perspective and general knowledge.

Whilst "eeman" is an Arabic from the Quran, the fundamental concept is generic to all religions and spirituality, i.e. that is "belief" 'believe', 'faith' in the generic sense.

There is nothing special about "eeman."
Point is since Islam belongs to the Abrahamic family of religion, what is eeman in Islam is also present in Judaism and Christianity.
This similar concept [eeman in Islam] that is common in the Abrahamic religion is belief, believe, believing, faith.
What make eeman different is merely the different Islamic elements and terms from the Quran.

Why I have to raise so many threads is I have to simplify it as much as possible because you are so ignorant and did not understand the words of your Allah with respect to this concept of eeman. Point is right thinking matters especially to you as a Muslim where it could be matter of faster to heaven or being stuck or tarried near hell.
Slowly:

You do not have Eeman without the 6 Pillars of Faith. You can not believe in Allaah(swt) without the subset of the 6 pillars.

While the Christians,Sabeeans and Jews of today do worship the same God(swt) we do they do not recognize he is Allaah(swt) if they not believe the Subset of the 6 pillars. Many have yet to recognize it is Allaah(swt) they believe in.

Most do have belief in God(swt)but they might not have Eeman or have very weak Eeamn. They might not be Mu'min (A person that has Eeman) although it could be they are Mu'min with weak Eeman

Some Christians, Sabians and Jews are very close to having Eeman but miss one aspect of the third Pillar of Belief Belief in the Prophets...that means belief in all the Prophets including Muhammad(saws) For some people that may be the only reason they do not have strong Eeman. However I may be wrong on that aspect and it simply means they have weak Eeman.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 04-21-2016 at 08:56 AM..
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:30 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Slowly:

You do not have Eeman without the 6 Pillars of Faith. You can not believe in Allaah(swt) without the subset of the 6 pillars.

While the Christians,Sabeeans and Jews of today do worship the same God(swt) we do they do not recognize he is Allaah(swt) if they not believe the Subset of the 6 pillars. Many have yet to recognize it is Allaah(swt) they believe in.

Most do have belief in God(swt)but they might not have Eeman or have very weak Eeamn. They might not be Mu'min (A person that has Eeman) although it could be they are Mu'min with weak Eeman

Some Christians, Sabians and Jews are very close to having Eeman but miss one aspect of the third Pillar of Belief Belief in the Prophets...that means belief in all the Prophets including Muhammad(saws) For some people that may be the only reason they do not have strong Eeman. However I may be wrong on that aspect and it simply means they have weak Eeman.
A Mu'min is someone who has eeman in all 6 pillars of Faith. This is why all Muslims believe in all messengers (3rd pillar) and all revelations (4th pillar) from Allah (the Taurat, the Injeel and the Qur'an included). This is also why no Muslim has loose eeman. All have precise eeman (in all 6 aspects of Faith)

Anyone who does not believe in 3rd and 4th pillar, has deficient eeman if s/he believes in Allah/God but not in any of His messengers and in any of His revelations (Books). We can't say that we believe You, Allah, but refuse to believe your revelation to your messenger Moses. What kind of eeman in Allah would that be if not deficient?
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A Mu'min is someone who has eeman in all 6 pillars of Faith. This is why all Muslims believe in all messengers (3rd pillar) and all revelations (4th pillar) from Allah (the Taurat, the Injeel and the Qur'an included). This is also why no Muslim has loose eeman. All have precise eeman (in all 6 aspects of Faith)

Anyone who does not believe in 3rd and 4th pillar, has deficient eeman if s/he believes in Allah/God but not in any of His messengers and in any of His revelations (Books). We can't say that we believe You, Allah, but refuse to believe your revelation to your messenger Moses. What kind of eeman in Allah would that be if not deficient?


But then again it is probably incorrect to say a person Believes in Allaah(swt) if they do not believe the 6 pillars.

And to have Eeman one must believe in Allaah(st)
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