U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-21-2016, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Beliefs=eeman=believing=faith=believe is your belief but not your eeman. Very good! Do carry on please as you don't need my input; you already know more than Muslims in this forum know.
My beliefs on this issue is:

Eeman = is specifically Beliefs=believing=faith=believe in the Islamic perspective ONLY.

I don't have any eeman [strict] because Eeman [strict] is not applicable to me at all because I am not a Muslim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-21-2016, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Slowly:

You do not have Eeman without the 6 Pillars of Faith. You can not believe in Allaah(swt) without the subset of the 6 pillars.
A Muslim cannot have eeman in the strict sense if they have not cultivated sufficient eeman [strict] based on the 6 pillars of eeman.

You are wrong.
A Muslim can believe in Allah without the 6 pillars of eeman.
A Muslim believe in Allah based on the 1st [of 5] pillars of islam [submission] and affirm it with the Shahada.
A person can even believe in Allah before affirming the Shahada but that would be a weak believe. [eeman in the loosest sense].

Quote:
While the Christians, Sabeeans and Jews of today do worship the same God(swt) we do they do not recognize he is Allaah(swt) if they not believe the Subset of the 6 pillars. Many have yet to recognize it is Allaah(swt) they believe in.

Most do have belief in God(swt)but they might not have Eeman or have very weak Eeamn. They might not be Mu'min (A person that has Eeman) although it could be they are Mu'min with weak Eeman

Some Christians, Sabians and Jews are very close to having Eeman but miss one aspect of the third Pillar of Belief Belief in the Prophets...that means belief in all the Prophets including Muhammad(saws) For some people that may be the only reason they do not have strong Eeman. However I may be wrong on that aspect and it simply means they have weak Eeman.
The position of the Christians, Sabeeans and Jews are as follows;

They are not Muslim because they did not affirm the Shahada which is a pillar of islam [submission].
This is the most critical prereguisite for any one to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran.
Thus their God cannot be the same as the Allah in the Quran.

While some Christians, Sabians and Jews of the past may be Muslims [they refer to the original uncorrupted revelations], the present ones cannot be Muslims because their present holy texts are corrupted.

Because the present Christians, Sabians and Jews are not Muslims, thus they cannot be a mu'min in the strict sense.

The present Christians, Sabians and Jews cannot have eeman-in-the-strict sense because they are never Muslims in the strictest sense in the first place.

One can say the present Christians, Sabians and Jews have eeman [beliefs] in the loosest sense but it would be advisable not to use the term 'eeman' [loose] in this case to avoid confusion like what we are having at present. [unless you are willing to accept the concepts of 'strict' and 'loose' as in the OP].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-22-2016, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim cannot have eeman in the strict sense if they have not cultivated sufficient eeman [strict] based on the 6 pillars of eeman.

You are wrong.
A Muslim can believe in Allah without the 6 pillars of eeman.
A Muslim believe in Allah based on the 1st [of 5] pillars of islam [submission] and affirm it with the Shahada.
A person can even believe in Allah before affirming the Shahada but that would be a weak believe. [eeman in the loosest sense].

The position of the Christians, Sabeeans and Jews are as follows;

They are not Muslim because they did not affirm the Shahada which is a pillar of islam [submission].
This is the most critical prereguisite for any one to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran.
Thus their God cannot be the same as the Allah in the Quran.

While some Christians, Sabians and Jews of the past may be Muslims [they refer to the original uncorrupted revelations], the present ones cannot be Muslims because their present holy texts are corrupted.

Because the present Christians, Sabians and Jews are not Muslims, thus they cannot be a mu'min in the strict sense.

The present Christians, Sabians and Jews cannot have eeman-in-the-strict sense because they are never Muslims in the strictest sense in the first place.

One can say the present Christians, Sabians and Jews have eeman [beliefs] in the loosest sense but it would be advisable not to use the term 'eeman' [loose] in this case to avoid confusion like what we are having at present. [unless you are willing to accept the concepts of 'strict' and 'loose' as in the OP].
Eeman is a state of being brought about by believing the beliefs of Eeman. Although Eeman is defined by it's beliefs, it is what is brought about by those beliefs. If a person has Eeman they have Amana

Christians, Sabians and Jews could possibly have a low level of Eeman. but simply believing in Allaah(swt) without any knowledge of Allaah(swt) would not mean they have Eeman.

One can not have Eeman without the 6 pillars it is the 6 pillars that define Allaah(swt) While the belief in them can contain doubt there has to be nothing that prevents belief in them. The less less doubt the stronger the Imam.

Just because a person is a Theist does not mean they have Eeman.

It is the 6 pillars that constitute belief in Allaah(swt) Without some concept of the 6 Pillars what one believes as Allaah(swt) is not defined. Disbelieving in anyone of the Pillars means the person has no Eeman. All six pillars are required for eeman although the level of belief can be low in all but the first Pillar. some level of belief is required in all 6 to have Eeman

Reviewing the 6 Pillars:

1. Belief in Allah as the one and only God (This is essential for Eeman, a high level of belief required)l

2. Belief in angels ( A small amount of flexibility allowed, must know they exist but not necessary to understand all their attributes or purposes)

3 Belief in the holy books ((Must know there were messages to all of mankind, but need not fully understand them)

4 Belief in the Prophets...(Must know there were Prophets to all of Mankind, but only required to know what was revealed to Muhammad (saws)

5. Belief in the Day of Judgement...(Must know there will be a day of judgement and the existence of heaven and hell. Must know all of mankind will be judged and every person will be rewarded for their good and punished for their bad. Not much more is required to be known about it)

6 Belief in Allah is all Knowing...(Must know that Allaah*swt) knows all things that have happened, are happeining and will happen. (Need not know what those things are or understand how) the Arabic word for this is Qadr an exact English translation of Qadr is Doctrine. I do not know why it is called Qadr.

If a person firmly beliefs in The First 1 and has sufficient belief in the others that they want to say the Shahadah they have Eeman.

The Shahadah is not the Shahadah unless it is said with Knowledge, Belief, Sincerity, conviction and of one's own free will. Every reverert to Islam has at least a low level of Eeman otherwise they have not said the Shahadah even if they repeat the words a million times. Therefore a revert to Islam is a Mu'min before they say the Shahadah and become a Muslim

Yes there are people that think they believe in Allaah(swt) and want to become Muslims and do say the Shahadah. But that is not with Knowledge and they are not Muslims although they think they are and are believed to be by other Muslims. But to be Muslim one Must have Eeman
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-22-2016, 03:23 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim cannot have eeman in the strict sense if they have not cultivated sufficient eeman [strict] based on the 6 pillars of eeman.
Nobody can be Muslim without having eeman in all 6 aspects of eeman.

Quote:
A Muslim can believe in Allah without the 6 pillars of eeman.
Completely wrong!

Believing in Allah is not only the 1st of the 6 pillars of faith but all 6 pillars of faith are prerequisite for becoming both a Mu''min and a Muslim. No person can be a Muslim without eeman in all 6 aspects of faith.

[quote]A Muslim believe in Allah based on the 1st [of 5] pillars of islam [submission] and affirm it with the Shahada.
A person can even believe in Allah before affirming the Shahada but that would be a weak believe. [eeman in the loosest sense]/QUOTE]The1st pillar of Islam is combination of all 6 pillars of faith. In other words, all 6 pillars of faith are the 1st pillar of Islam.

Quote:
The position of the Christians, Sabeeans and Jews are as follows;

They are not Muslim because they did not affirm the Shahada which is a pillar of islam [submission].
Jews were Muslims until they rejected Jesus. Christians were Muslims until they rejected Muhammad. A Muslim must have eeman in all messengers of Allah.

Quote:
This is the most critical prereguisite for any one to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran.
Thus their God cannot be the same as the Allah in the Quran.
Their God is the same God as Allah in the Qur'an (29:46).

Quote:
While some Christians, Sabians and Jews of the past may be Muslims [they refer to the original uncorrupted revelations], the present ones cannot be Muslims because their present holy texts are corrupted.
False belief!

The present ones do not like to be called Muslims and more importantly are not Muslims because they failed to comply with one of the 6 pillars of faith even the 1st of the 5 pillars of Islam.

Quote:
Because the present Christians, Sabians and Jews are not Muslims, thus they cannot be a mu'min in the strict sense.
They are not Muslims or Mu'mineen because they rejected a messenger of God and a revelation from God.

Quote:
The present Christians, Sabians and Jews cannot have eeman-in-the-strict sense because they are never Muslims in the strictest sense in the first place.
They were Muslims until they rejected a messenger and a revelation from their God.

Quote:
One can say the present Christians, Sabians and Jews have eeman [beliefs] in the loosest sense but it would be advisable not to use the term 'eeman' [loose] in this case to avoid confusion like what we are having at present. [unless you are willing to accept the concepts of 'strict' and 'loose' as in the OP].
Eeman is a precise term.
Once one rejects one of the 6 pillars of faith, he loses his eeman and becomes one of the kafireen (2:89).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Eeman is a state of being brought about by believing the beliefs of Eeman. Although Eeman is defined by it's beliefs, it is what is brought about by those beliefs. If a person has Eeman they have Amana
That is what I have been stating all the while. Eeman is a state of mind brought about by believing in the elements [or beliefs] of eeman.

Quote:
Christians, Sabians and Jews could possibly have a low level of Eeman. but simply believing in Allaah(swt) without any knowledge of Allaah(swt) would not mean they have Eeman.
The present Christians and Jews cannot have eeman because they believed in a corrupted version of the Quran [as claimed by the Quran]. Therefore they cannot have eeman [strict sense] at all.

Quote:
One can not have Eeman without the 6 pillars it is the 6 pillars that define Allaah(swt) While the belief in them can contain doubt there has to be nothing that prevents belief in them. The less less doubt the stronger the Imam.

Just because a person is a Theist does not mean they have Eeman.

It is the 6 pillars that constitute belief in Allaah(swt) Without some concept of the 6 Pillars what one believes as Allaah(swt) is not defined. Disbelieving in anyone of the Pillars means the person has no Eeman. All six pillars are required for eeman although the level of belief can be low in all but the first Pillar. some level of belief is required in all 6 to have Eeman
Allah did not specify there are 6 pillars of eeman. This 6 pillars are extracted by humans.
While the main pillars are the same, some scholars has a slight variations in the 6 pillars between them.

Just as one can do without one pillar of islam, i.e. the haj, one can be ignorant of one pillar of eeman and still has eeman but that be not as strong as one who cultivate the 6 pillars of eeman diligently.

Quote:
Reviewing the 6 Pillars:

1. Belief in Allah as the one and only God (This is essential for Eeman, a high level of belief required)l

2. Belief in angels ( A small amount of flexibility allowed, must know they exist but not necessary to understand all their attributes or purposes)

3 Belief in the holy books ((Must know there were messages to all of mankind, but need not fully understand them)

4 Belief in the Prophets...(Must know there were Prophets to all of Mankind, but only required to know what was revealed to Muhammad (saws)

5. Belief in the Day of Judgement...(Must know there will be a day of judgement and the existence of heaven and hell. Must know all of mankind will be judged and every person will be rewarded for their good and punished for their bad. Not much more is required to be known about it)

6 Belief in Allah is all Knowing...(Must know that Allaah*swt) knows all things that have happened, are happeining and will happen. (Need not know what those things are or understand how) the Arabic word for this is Qadr an exact English translation of Qadr is Doctrine. I do not know why it is called Qadr.
Some scholars has a slightly different set of the 6 pillars.

Quote:
If a person firmly beliefs in The First 1 and has sufficient belief in the others that they want to say the Shahadah they have Eeman.

The Shahadah is not the Shahadah unless it is said with Knowledge, Belief, Sincerity, conviction and of one's own free will. Every reverert to Islam has at least a low level of Eeman otherwise they have not said the Shahadah even if they repeat the words a million times. Therefore a revert to Islam is a Mu'min before they say the Shahadah and become a Muslim

Yes there are people that think they believe in Allaah(swt) and want to become Muslims and do say the Shahadah. But that is not with Knowledge and they are not Muslims although they think they are and are believed to be by other Muslims. But to be Muslim one Must have Eeman
Point here is the 6 pillars of eeman intersect with the 5 pillars of Islam where both share the Shahada.
Within the 6 pillars of eeman [strict], the Shahada would have to be realized with more knowledge, zeal, conviction, intensity and piety than the degree it was expressed in the 5 pillars of Islam [submission].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Nobody can be Muslim without having eeman in all 6 aspects of eeman.
Completely wrong!
It is unfortunate your above view made you very ignorant of your own religion.

Any person can be a Muslim once they have affirmed the Shahada where they spontaneously submit to Allah and signifying they have entered into a covenant with Allah. This is a beginner Muslim.
There is no need for eeman in the strict sense, i.e. with 6 pillars of eeman for one to be a Muslim.

Most new Muslims do not have knowledge of the angels and other details within the Quran. Babies who are assumed to be Muslims by virtue of being born into a Muslim family do not know the 6 elements of eeman.

If you insist new Muslims has eeman, then that can only be eeman in the loose sense. If you don't like the term eeman, then it is some form of beliefs but not eeman in the strict sense with the 6 pillars of eeman.


Quote:
Believing in Allah is not only the 1st of the 6 pillars of faith but all 6 pillars of faith are prerequisite for becoming both a Mu''min and a Muslim. No person can be a Muslim without eeman in all 6 aspects of faith.
This is ignorance. Note my argument above.

Quote:
A Muslim believe in Allah based on the 1st [of 5] pillars of islam [submission] and affirm it with the Shahada.
A person can even believe in Allah before affirming the Shahada but that would be a weak believe. [eeman in the loosest sense
Quote:
The1st pillar of Islam is combination of all 6 pillars of faith. In other words, all 6 pillars of faith are the 1st pillar of Islam.
Again this is ignorance.
As I mentioned in the last post, the set of the 5 pillars of Islam share the same pillar of Shahada with the 6 pillars of eeman.
The difference is the Shahada in the 5 pillars of Islam can be expressed plainly but the Shahad in the 6 pillars has higher intensity, zeal, conviction, knowledge, beliefs, piety, etc.

Quote:
Jews were Muslims until they rejected Jesus. Christians were Muslims until they rejected Muhammad. A Muslim must have eeman in all messengers of Allah.
Their God is the same God as Allah in the Qur'an (29:46).
Basically the present Jews and Christians are not Muslims because their holy texts had been corrupted as so-claimed in the Quran. As such their God [trinity with a son and partners] therein cannot be the same as Allah in the Quran or the original revelations.

Quote:
False belief!
The present ones do not like to be called Muslims and more importantly are not Muslims because they failed to comply with one of the 6 pillars of faith even the 1st of the 5 pillars of Islam.
They are not Muslims or Mu'mineen because they rejected a messenger of God and a revelation from God.

They were Muslims until they rejected a messenger and a revelation from their God.
The main point is they [present Jews and Christians] followed their present holy texts which had been corrupted along the way. As such, this contradict the 1st pillar of Islam which disqualify them from being a Muslim.
No need wasting time with the other secondary points.


Quote:
Eeman is a precise term.
Once one rejects one of the 6 pillars of faith, he loses his eeman and becomes one of the kafireen (2:89).
The 6 pillars of eeman are not stated by Allah in the Quran, it is a human-made term.
There is some difference in what constitute what is the 6 pillars of eeman with different scholars. So which is the precise eeman [strict] from Allah.
Eeman [strict] is only precise to you the human and not Allah.

As stated above;
Any person can be a Muslim once they have affirmed the Shahada where they spontaneously submit to Allah and signifying they have entered into a covenant with Allah. This is a beginner Muslim.
There is no need for eeman in the strict sense, i.e. with 6 pillars of eeman to be a Muslim.

However the 6 pillars of eeman [strict] is necessary for one to be a mumin [strict].

Last edited by Continuum; 04-23-2016 at 01:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 02:50 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is unfortunate your above view made you very ignorant of your own religion.
Crap!

Quote:
Any person can be a Muslim once they have affirmed the Shahada where they spontaneously submit to Allah and signifying they have entered into a covenant with Allah. This is a beginner Muslim.
A Muslim does not enter into a covenant with Allah: a Muslim has already entered into a covenant with Allah after believing and saying that he hears and obeys.

Quote:
There is no need for eeman in the strict sense, i.e. with 6 pillars of eeman for one to be a Muslim.
Another statement in ignorance!

Once one has eeman in Allah and His messenger Muhammad, by default he has eeman in whatever is in the Qur'an which covers all 6 aspects of faith. You are ignorant about this aspect of eeman.

Quote:
Most new Muslims do not have knowledge of the angels and other details within the Quran.
If a non-muslim like you know about angels then new Muslims certainly know about angels and many other details in the Qur'an before becoming Muslim.

Quote:
Babies who are assumed to be Muslims by virtue of being born into a Muslim family do not know the 6 elements of eeman.
They haven't said the Shahada either. They haven't prayed or fasted or even given Zakat (never mind about hajj and doing tawaf). You are being silly in putting forward the point about the babies. The only action they have done (that of being born) is according to the will of Allah thus they have already submitted to Allah in their only act so far. So stop nit-picking in your ignorance about eeman.

Quote:
If you insist new Muslims has eeman, then that can only be eeman in the loose sense. If you don't like the term eeman, then it is some form of beliefs but not eeman in the strict sense with the 6 pillars of eeman.
You need to realize that Shahada, by default, includes all pillars of faith. Eeman in (1) Allah, (2) His messenger, and (3) His books covers the other three pillars as well.

Quote:
As I mentioned in the last post, the set of the 5 pillars of Islam share the same pillar of Shahada with the 6 pillars of eeman.
To an ignorant, Ist pillar of Islam is only or 2 pillars of faith. To a knowledgeable person, the 1st pillar of Islam is, by default, all 6 pillars of faith.

Quote:
The difference is the Shahada in the 5 pillars of Islam can be expressed plainly but the Shahad in the 6 pillars has higher intensity, zeal, conviction, knowledge, beliefs, piety, etc.
And when does the Shahad of the 6 pillars does his Shahada?

Quote:
The 6 pillars of eeman are not stated by Allah in the Quran, it is a human-made term.
Really? If the 6 aspects of faith (expressed as 6 pillars of faith) are not in the Qur'an then one needs to be Muslim only and no need to be Mu'min. Yes?

Quote:
There is some difference in what constitute what is the 6 pillars of eeman with different scholars. So which is the precise eeman [strict] from Allah.
Eeman [strict] is only precise to you the human and not Allah.
No. It is precise by Allah but loose and strict to you.

Quote:
As stated above;
Any person can be a Muslim once they have affirmed the Shahada where they spontaneously submit to Allah and signifying they have entered into a covenant with Allah. This is a beginner Muslim.
There is no need for eeman in the strict sense, i.e. with 6 pillars of eeman to be a Muslim.

However the 6 pillars of eeman [strict] is necessary for one to be a mumin [strict].
As you stated above, 6 pillars are not by Allah but by human, so there is no need to be a Mu'min but only Muslim. Yes?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Crap!
Another statement in ignorance!

Once one has eeman in Allah and His messenger Muhammad, by default he has eeman in whatever is in the Qur'an which covers all 6 aspects of faith. You are ignorant about this aspect of eeman.
Crap!
[tit-for-tat].

Quote:
A Muslim does not enter into a covenant with Allah: a Muslim has already entered into a covenant with Allah after believing and saying that he hears and obeys.
"after believing" in what?
Obviously it is after believing in Allah as the only God and Muhammad is the messenger.
There is a difference between believing and actions following beliefs.
Thus a person must submit [action] by affirming the Shahada [internally or externally] signifying s/he has entered into a covenant [agreement] to be a slave of Allah, i.e. a Muslim.
Once a Muslim has submitted, the hearing and obeying naturally follow.
It is like once you signed contract or agreement you must act on the terms of the contract, there is no imperative to mention it at all.

Quote:
If a non-muslim like you know about angels then new Muslims certainly know about angels and many other details in the Qur'an before becoming Muslim.
You are so ignorant of human nature.
There are 1.5 billion Muslims out there without a wide range of intellectual & knowledge competence and psychological inclinations.

Quote:
They haven't said the Shahada either. They haven't prayed or fasted or even given Zakat (never mind about hajj and doing tawaf). You are being silly in putting forward the point about the babies. The only action they have done (that of being born) is according to the will of Allah thus they have already submitted to Allah in their only act so far. So stop nit-picking in your ignorance about eeman.
This is about the fact, truth and being objective. You are running away from the truth.

Quote:
You need to realize that Shahada, by default, includes all pillars of faith. Eeman in (1) Allah, (2) His messenger, and (3) His books covers the other three pillars as well.

To an ignorant, Ist pillar of Islam is only or 2 pillars of faith. To a knowledgeable person, the 1st pillar of Islam is, by default, all 6 pillars of faith.
That is your problem because you do not recognize the strict and loose sense of eeman.

In one sense the 1st pillar of Islam is Islam itself which imply reference to the 6,236 verses of the Quran recited to Muhammad from Allah.
But this is too loose and will not be effective for one to be a Muslim.
This is why Allah sent down the details in the Quran for Muslims to read, analyze, deliberate and reflect on.
As such we need to analyze the verses in details in term of the various pillars, doctrines, commands etc.
And when does the Shahad of the 6 pillars does his Shahada?
For many new Muslims, the Shahada is stated plainly without heavy conviction.
To cultivate a higher degree of eeman a Muslim would have be mindful of the Shahada at most times and whenever possible. This constant mindfulness will develop over time.
Really? If the 6 aspects of faith (expressed as 6 pillars of faith) are not in the Qur'an then one needs to be Muslim only and no need to be Mu'min. Yes?
Really.
The 6 pillars represent a certain state of mind of mindfulness surrounding the main pillars of eeman. When one has developed such a state of mind sufficiently then one qualify as a mu'min proper [strict]. This qualification can only be determined by Allah. Humans can more or less guess whether they themselves or others has reached the level of being a mu'min proper [via observations and their deeds], but cannot be certain of it.
No. It is precise by Allah but loose and strict to you.
Allah is supposed to be all powerful, thus if he want to be precise Allah can be most precise.
So it depend on how you define precise and in what context.
In the context of eeman, Allah did not specify any "precise" procedures but exhorted Muslims to increase their faith continuously. When Muslims continue to increase their eeman, they will reach a level of mu'min naturally and Allah will know it.

Quote:
As you stated above, 6 pillars are not by Allah but by human, so there is no need to be a Mu'min but only Muslim. Yes?
Humans has identified the 6 pillars of eeman to facilate the increase of eeman [in accordance and as near as possible to Allah's intent] and if Muslims adhere and practice the related pillars correctly, diligently and consistently they are likely to qualify as mu'min proper [strict sense] regardless they are thinking of it or not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 02:35 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
"after believing" in what?
Obviously it is after believing in Allah as the only God and Muhammad is the messenger.
There is a difference between believing and actions following beliefs.
The only beliefs you have mentioned here are "Allah as the only God" and "Muhammad is the messenger". These are the two beliefs expressed through Shahada. These are also the two articles of faith that ALL Mu'mineen must believe in. All those who had believed in these two articles were Mu'mineen from the outset, and addressed as Mu'minern by Allah throughout the Qur'an even before they had developed your so-called "strict eeman". Therefore, there was no loose eeman or loose Mu'min at any time.

Quote:
Thus a person must submit [action] by affirming the Shahada [internally or externally] signifying s/he has entered into a covenant [agreement] to be a slave of Allah, i.e. a Muslim.
Shahada does not signify entering into a covenant to be a Muslim. It signifies one's faith in Allah and His messenger Muhammad

Quote:
Once a Muslim has submitted, the hearing and obeying naturally follow.
By believing in Allah and His messenger, one has become a Mu'min. Because such believing is required by Allah, it is, by default, also submitting to Allah. Therefore , at the time of Shahada, one is technically both a Mu'min and a Muslim. But these are not permanent titles. In Islam, there is no such thing as "once a Muslim always a Muslim" or "once a Mu'min always a Mu'min". For example, neither the believing nor the submitting ends at the point of Shahada. Both are ongoing.

A Mu'min enters the covenant to hear the commands plus obey Allah and His messenger. Once a Mu'min obeys Allah and His messenger, as required of him in the Qur'an, he carries on submitting by obeying each command. Such submitter is known as Muslim as long as he keeps obeying/submitting throughout his life on earth. If he refuses to obey, he is no longer a Muslim despite once say Shahada. This is why Muslims pray (salat), fast, give zakat and go for hajj once in their lifetime (if fit to travel and financially selfsufficient) as acts of submitting throughout life and not just at the time of Shahada.

Quote:
You are so ignorant of human nature.
There are 1.5 billion Muslims out there without a wide range of intellectual & knowledge competence and psychological inclinations.
And you are ignorant about Allah knowing all that. He does not impose any burden on anyone that is beyond one's ability.

23:62 And We do not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent of its ability, and with Us is a book which speaks the truth, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Shahada is too easy a burden as the only submitting. You are ignorant about submitting if you think so.



Quote:
That is your problem because you do not recognize the strict and loose sense of eeman.
Strict and loose sense of eeman is your problem. I am quite happy with the precise term eeman.

Quote:
In one sense the 1st pillar of Islam is Islam itself which imply reference to the 6,236 verses of the Quran recited to Muhammad from Allah.
Exactly my point!

1st pillar of Islam IS all 6 pillars of faith. Bells are ringing now!!!

Quote:
But this is too loose and will not be effective for one to be a Muslim.
There is nothing more loose thinking than thinking that the only time a Muslim has to submit is at Shahada time.

Quote:
And when does the Shahad of the 6 pillars does his Shahada?
For many new Muslims, the Shahada is stated plainly without heavy conviction.
That is an insult by you to all new Muslims. Obviously you are ignorant about the fact that they are expressing their conviction (eeman) about Allah and His messenger.

And of course you coudn't answer my question so you just danced around it and jumped on to the Shahada not knowing that it is the Mu'min.who is saying the Shahada and becoming a Muslim as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-25-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The only beliefs you have mentioned here are "Allah as the only God" and "Muhammad is the messenger". These are the two beliefs expressed through Shahada. These are also the two articles of faith that ALL Mu'mineen must believe in. All those who had believed in these two articles were Mu'mineen from the outset, and addressed as Mu'minern by Allah throughout the Qur'an even before they had developed your so-called "strict eeman". Therefore, there was no loose eeman or loose Mu'min at any time.
It is "word salad" in this case when you do not used the strict and loose sense of the various terms.
Btw it is 'eeman in the loose sense', not 'loose eeman'. There is a lot of difference in meaning between these two phrases.

The Shahada is merely two pillars of faith [6 pillars of eeman], thus a weak form of eeman.
The stronger form of eeman refer to the 6 pillars.

Note any normal person can recite the Shahada, but there is a difference in conviction between one who has strong eeman and weak eeman. Even a parrot can recite the Shahada.

When one expressed only two pillars, one is a mu'min in the weak and loose sense.
One can only be a mu'min in the strong sense when one has cultivated sufficient degree of eeman [strict] from the 6 pillars of eeman. This must take time to develop and it different from one who has just converted or a beginner Muslim.

Quote:
Shahada does not signify entering into a covenant to be a Muslim. It signifies one's faith in Allah and His messenger Muhammad
As I said, even a parrot can recite the Shahada. But a parrot which recite the Shahada cannot be a Muslim.
To be a Muslim a person must recite the Shahada with the intent and impulse to surrender and submit, thus entering into a covenant and complying with its term.

Quote:
By believing in Allah and His messenger, one has become a Mu'min. Because such believing is required by Allah, it is, by default, also submitting to Allah. Therefore , at the time of Shahada, one is technically both a Mu'min and a Muslim. But these are not permanent titles. In Islam, there is no such thing as "once a Muslim always a Muslim" or "once a Mu'min always a Mu'min". For example, neither the believing nor the submitting ends at the point of Shahada. Both are ongoing.
Believing is merely believing, i.e. a kind of mental process. Submission is a different mental process and not defaulted to believing.

If you believe I am a good potential employee for your company, I am not yet an employee of your until both us sign an employment contract with deliberate intent. Once an employee I will have to obey the instruction of the supervisors and employer.

Similarly one can believe in Allah and Islam as a suitable religion for oneself but one can only be a Muslim after deliberating submitting and enter into a covenant with Allah by affirming* with genuine intent the Shahada.
* not merely reciting.

Quote:
A Mu'min enters the covenant to hear the commands plus obey Allah and His messenger. Once a Mu'min obeys Allah and His messenger, as required of him in the Qur'an, he carries on submitting by obeying each command. Such submitter is known as Muslim as long as he keeps obeying/submitting throughout his life on earth. If he refuses to obey, he is no longer a Muslim despite once say Shahada. This is why Muslims pray (salat), fast, give zakat and go for hajj once in their lifetime (if fit to travel and financially selfsufficient) as acts of submitting throughout life and not just at the time of Shahada.
A person has to exercise the mental effort of submission [note my point above] by affirming the Shahada to enter into a covenant with Allah. The obeying and execution of the appropriate commands follows naturally by virtue of the covenant [contract/agreement].
What is critical is the initial submission, once that is done the Muslim is always in a constant state of submission until otherwise.

Quote:
Strict and loose sense of eeman is your problem. I am quite happy with the precise term eeman.
This is what is represented in reality.
Your precise term of eeman is from unreality.

Quote:
Exactly my point!
1st pillar of Islam IS all 6 pillars of faith. Bells are ringing now!!!
This is so nave.
Note I stated that is one sense or one perspective of it.
Problem is you are unable to shift perspective to understand it.

Quote:
There is nothing more loose thinking than thinking that the only time a Muslim has to submit is at Shahada time.

That is an insult by you to all new Muslims. Obviously you are ignorant about the fact that they are expressing their conviction (eeman) about Allah and His messenger.

And of course you coudn't answer my question so you just danced around it and jumped on to the Shahada not knowing that it is the Mu'min.who is saying the Shahada and becoming a Muslim as well.
Note I stated the difference between the to be converted Muslim generally do not expressed the Shahada with heavy or very strong conviction merely because s/he is a new to Islam thus has weaker eeman.
There is generally a difference in the degree of eeman [strict] between one who is a Muslim for one day only and one who has been a Muslim for 40 years and practicing diligently.

The problem with your thinking is you are thinking if not pure black then it must be pure white.
You failed or deliberately ignore the range of greys in between.
To you there is no difference between a Muslim of one day and a Muslim of 40 years in term of the degree of eeman [strict] and mu'min_ness.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top