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Old 04-29-2016, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The critical element here is the intent and the degree of faith that generate the action. Allah will definitely take the degree of faith into account so that the appropriate reward will be accorded.
Faith is not judged but the person and his actions.

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For example, a Muslim may go to war for the cause of Allah but it does not meant all who go to war will be rewarded the same, but the intensity [e.g. spontaneous and no hesitation in mind] of the faith that drive them to the cause of Allah will count.
It will still be his action that will be judged rather than his eeman will be judged. Intensity of faith does not depend on faith but on Muslim's strength in eeman. This is why only the Muslim will be judged rather than his his eeman. It will be the Muslim (person) who will be rewarded or punished for being strong in eeman or weak in eeman rather than his eeman is going to be rewarded or punished for being strong or weak.

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Another critical point is once a person faces Allah or J-Day it is too late to do any correction. Thus what is critical for any Muslim is the degree of eeman that they need to cultivate so that all their actions are naturally of the highest standard.
He does not cultivate eeman but he has eeman. He cultivates his actions according to eeman he has.

Quote:
Actions counts of J-Day but what make actions that will meet Allah's standard will depend critically on one degrees of eeman that will drive one to higher standards.
The flaw in your understanding of eeman is quite apparent here. You contradict yourself in the latter statement. In the former statement your point was that one cultivates eeman through actions. But here your point is that it is eeman that cultivates the actions. You must be confused because it is neither actions that cultivate eeman nor eeman cultivates the actions. It is always a Muslims strength in eeman that is crucial factor in his actions whether they are good or bad.

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How do you have strong eeman if you have not cultivated that strong eeman based on the standards set by Allah in the Quran?
Because eeman entered my heart first and it resulted in my informed actions.

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That is why I said that you cannot be your own judge on this to claim you have strong eeman when you don't know what is the full definition of eeman in the Quran, i.e. defined by Allah.
Why are you exposing your ignorance about my eeman by making such statement? Can't yousee tht I am trying to help you understand eeman?

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In the Quran, eeman proper relates to the 6 pillars of eeeman.
In the Qur'an, eeman proper is eeman in Allah and His guidance through the messages from Him. Eveything else is related to and within such proper eeman, and is not outside such proper eeman. So do not think that you have dug up any Islamic gold by discovering 6 pillars of faith!

Any person believing in Allah and message from Him jhas proper eeman. Nothing else will guide him to becom stronger in his eeman than Allah and His messages.

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You cannot be that ignorant of general knowledge.
What is strength if not degree of strength.
Degree of a Muslim's strength in eeman is degree of his steadfastness in his eeman (28:54, 3:200, 42:15).

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Therefore each Muslim's strength in eeman is the same as their degrees in eeman.
It is his strength and not his eeman's strength.

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The degrees of a Muslim's eeman will definitely vary.
It is eeman or faith that generate strength and the degree of a Muslim's eeman will generate different strength or weaknesses.
What generates/cultivates what, eeman or actions?

Further, if Muslim's eeman is what generates diferent strength or weaknesses in his actions then he can't be judged on the dsyof judgment but only eeman that generted strength or weaknesses
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Old 04-29-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Faith is not judged but the person and his actions.
According to Allah, eeman must enter into the hearts of believers to be counted.

Your problem you focus on the superficial element in the Quran. It is true the Quran mentioned about deeds and action in relation to the sijjin and illiyun, but there is more to it when we take the whole of the Quran into contexts.

Note the following verses;
2:225 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement.

3:29 Say, (O Muhammad): Whether ye hide that which is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knoweth it. He knoweth that which is in the heavens and that which is in the earth, and Allah is Able to do all things.

5:7 Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

4:63 Those are they, the secrets of whose hearts Allah knoweth. So oppose them and admonish them, and address them in plain terms about their souls.
There are many verses which mentioned 'hearts' and 'breasts' [which is also reference to the heart] of Muslims.
Therefore Allah take into account 'faith' in the hearts and breast of Muslims on J-DAY.

Quote:
It will still be his action that will be judged rather than his eeman will be judged. Intensity of faith does not depend on faith but on Muslim's strength in eeman. This is why only the Muslim will be judged rather than his his eeman. It will be the Muslim (person) who will be rewarded or punished for being strong in eeman or weak in eeman rather than his eeman is going to be rewarded or punished for being strong or weak.
Note my above arguments on how eeman [faith] in the hearts and breasts of Muslims will be accounted for and judged.

You are talking nonsense re rewarding eeman for being strong or weak.
A person is rewarded based on objective results, but his objective results are dependent on the person's competence [weak or strong] in his mind.
A student is rewarded for being the best student in Mathematics and that is dependent on his strong mathematic abilities in his mind.
A leader may appoint a follower as the second in command because of his skills and his faith in him.

Thus a Muslim will be rewarded based on his net positive actions which is driven by his faith [eeman] and Allah -all knowing will take into account his actual degree of faith [eeman] that correspond to his actions.
It is possible for a person to perform 'good' deeds due to various other reasons, e.g. to please his girlfriends, boss, parents, relative, friends or for some selfish reasons or forced by circumstances.
Therefore Allah will double check to ensure the reason of the "good" deeds are in accorded with a genuine degree of strong eeman [faith].


Quote:
He does not cultivate eeman but he has eeman. He cultivates his actions according to eeman he has.
You are ignorant in this case.
When one cultivate strong faith [eeman] in accordance to the 6 pillars of eeman, the Muslims actions will spontaneously and naturally be in accordance to what is expected.
This principle is applicable to many aspects of life.

When one cultivate calmness, one actions will naturally be done calmly.
One can pretend to do one actions calmly [when in the heart is beating fast inside] that is not natural and not effective.

Quote:
The flaw in your understanding of eeman is quite apparent here. You contradict yourself in the latter statement. In the former statement your point was that one cultivates eeman through actions. But here your point is that it is eeman that cultivates the actions. You must be confused because it is neither actions that cultivate eeman nor eeman cultivates the actions. It is always a Muslims strength in eeman that is crucial factor in his actions whether they are good or bad.
Again you are ignorant.
Note in any process there are input actions to achieve a certain state and from that state one produce output actions which are different.
There are input actions to cultivate the degree of eeman [faith].
When one has achieved a certain degree of eeman [faith] one will achieved higher quality of actions.

Quote:
Because eeman entered my heart first and it resulted in my informed actions.
Note eeman do not enter into the heart in full or 100%. Eeman enter into the hearts in graduated or incremental degrees from 1% and progress toward higher degree over time.

The Quran use the term heart but in reality it is the brain that matters.
There are 100 billions neurons [100,000,000,000] each with up to 10,000 connectors. Just imagine the massive quantum of possible combination from the neurons and its connectors.
Eeman is represented by certain set of active neurons. When eeman first enter the brain [heart] it may trigger and activate 1 million neurons.
But for eeman to achieve a higher degree it may need to activate 50,000,000 neurons and that take time.

It is same with the development of any mental skill or abilities.

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Why are you exposing your ignorance about my eeman by making such statement? Can't you see tht I am trying to help you understand eeman?
I have mentioned many times, I fully understand your concept of eeman. However I do not agree with your understanding of eeman which is shallow, narrow and in various ways is wrong.
Note I have raised a few threads to help you to understand [not necessary agree] my concept of eeman [which is in accordance to Allah's intentions and agreed by many Islamic Scholars]. Once you understand my point, then it is up to you to agree or not.

Quote:
In the Qur'an, eeman proper is eeman in Allah and His guidance through the messages from Him. Eveything else is related to and within such proper eeman, and is not outside such proper eeman. So do not think that you have dug up any Islamic gold by discovering 6 pillars of faith!
I have not dug up any Islamic gold.
My understanding of eeman in accordance to Allah [and many Islamic scholars] is very basic as stated by Allah in the Quran.
What eeman is about can be presented in terms of the 6 pillars of eeman which is useful to facilitate Muslims to progress their faith [eeman].

Quote:
Any person believing in Allah and message from Him has proper eeman. Nothing else will guide him to becom stronger in his eeman than Allah and His messages.
It is no point just mentioning you know what is eeman. Without knowing more about its detail mechanics you could be wrong based on wishful thinking.

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Degree of a Muslim's strength in eeman is degree of his steadfastness in his eeman (28:54, 3:200, 42:15).
28:54. These will be given their reward twice over, because they are steadfast and repel evil with good, and spend of that wherewith We have provided them,
How can they be steadfast if they do not have the necessary eeman [faith]?
It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness.
Thus high degree of eeman will generate strong strength of steadfastness.

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It is his strength and not his eeman's strength.
It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness.
Thus high degree of eeman will generate strong strength of steadfastness.
In other words the degree of eeman can be equivalent to the strength in eeman.

Quote:
What generates/cultivates what, eeman or actions?

Further, if Muslim's eeman is what generates diferent strength or weaknesses in his actions then he can't be judged on the day of judgment but only eeman that generted strength or weaknesses
It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness and thus actions that are steadfast.

I had explained above and supported with verses that Allah [all-knowing] will take into account the eeman in a Muslim's heart and breast on J-DAY to ensure the actions are based on genuine high degree of eeman and not due to personal selfish reasons, etc.
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:45 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
According to Allah, eeman must enter into the hearts of believers to be counted.
How many eemans are there in one's heart that Allah will count them as the deeds will be counted?

The moment one actually believes Allah, eeman has entered his heart. He is a believer from that moment onwards unless he disbelieves after that at any time.

4:124 And whoever does good deeds and s/he is a believer, these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.
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Old 05-01-2016, 03:02 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are talking nonsense re rewarding eeman for being strong or weak.,
A person is rewarded based on objective results, but his objective results are dependent on the person's competence [weak or strong] in his mind.
Yes, a person is not rewarded for what he believes but what he does.

Quote:
A student is rewarded for being the best student in Mathematics and that is dependent on his strong mathematic abilities in his mind.
If that were the case, there would be no tests and exams. It is not what a student's ability is but what he actually does during the exam/test. One may be a strong believer (strong in eeman) but he still has to do good deeds to get the reward. Eeman is prerequisite for the deeds to be counted but it will be then only the deeds that will be counted and rewarded.
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Old 05-01-2016, 03:48 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can they be steadfast if they do not have the necessary eeman [faith]?
It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness.
Thus high degree of eeman will generate strong strength of steadfastness.
It is a person's potential that generates his steadfastness in his eeman. Eeman does not control the person or else the person can't be judged but ony the eeman. A person is judged because it is the person who is in contol of his eeman.

You have no eeman. Do you have no strength of steadfastness? Your argument is pathetic and in ignorance about eeman (faith)!

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It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness.
Where does your strength of steadfastness in your actions comes from when you have no eeman? Is it not because of your own potential?

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It is the degree in eeman that generate the strength in steadfastness and thus actions that are steadfast.
If you apply that same logic to your own actions, there should be no strength in your steadfastness thus your actions would be very weak and not steadfast. Is that what you are trying to tell me?
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How many eemans are there in one's heart that Allah will count them as the deeds will be counted?

The moment one actually believes Allah, eeman has entered his heart. He is a believer from that moment onwards unless he disbelieves after that at any time.

4:124 And whoever does good deeds and s/he is a believer, these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.
How many "sleeps" are there in one's brain when a person is sleeping.

Eeman [faith from beliefs] is a state of mind but it is dependent on many factors which manifest degrees [intensity, grades] in such a state of mind.

Believe and a state of belief also comes in degrees.

Example, note the mental state of 'love' between romantic lovers.
There may be such thing as 'love at first sight' which generate a strong degree of love for the other. In this case we may say 'love' [cupid's arrow] has penetrated the heart.
However in general with most other people, love develop gradually in degree over time. Thus for most people, love may not have entered into their hearts initially.
Initially there is small degree of love within the person psyche but not serious enough to enter into the heart. It is only after some time that one's develop a greater love for the other to make a serious commitment to sign a marry and settle down.

Believe [mental process] in Allah is the similar to the above example of love [a mental process].
Therefore the initial 'believing' thus beliefs leading to faith [eeman] is a very loose and general type of believe. The initial believing or faith [loose] will lead to submission [strict] but not eeman in the strict sense.
Serious or strict 'believe' or faith [eeman] is only specific when referring to the absolute and total acceptance of the 6 pillars of eeman [faith] which is more forceful to penetrate the hearts of the believers.

The quote in blue is merely a general statement and not eeman in the strict sense.
Eeman [faith from beliefs] is used in the strict sense when Allah mention vying, 'race' compete that result in ranks, grades, degrees of believers [mu'min strict] and how rewards are accorded in accordance to the respective degrees.
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Like many Arabic words eeman as a word carries various meanings depending on the intent of the speaker. The meaning of eeman is it is the name used to designate the collective Pillars of Belief. But when a person is spoken of having eeman, that is the amana (Security, trust and peace) one has as the result of the Pillars of Belief.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:10 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore the initial 'believing' thus beliefs leading to faith [eeman] is a very loose and general type of believe. The initial believing or faith [loose] will lead to submission [strict] but not eeman in the strict sense.
Did you previously say that believing is not required for submitting?

You must have been confused. Now the confusion is wearing off, I suppose.

Initial believing will lead people to submission (islam) simply because of them having eeman after believing. Without eeman, they won't submit.

Quote:
Serious or strict 'believe' or faith [eeman] is only specific when referring to the absolute and total acceptance of the 6 pillars of eeman [faith] which is more forceful to penetrate the hearts of the believers.
No. 6 pillars are not declared in the Qur'an for eeman. There are other so-called "pillars" outside the 6 pillars of scholars that make one a Mu'min. The Qur'an does not tell you about only 6 pillars but the scholars with weak knowledge about the Qur'an tell you so. Believing is about what the Qur'an tells you rather than what the scholars tell you.

Quote:
Eeman [faith from beliefs] is used in the strict sense when Allah mention vying, 'race' compete that result in ranks, grades, degrees of believers [mu'min strict] and how rewards are accorded in accordance to the respective degrees.
No. The Qur'an does not tell you so. The Qur'an tells you to fear Allah, do good deeds, trust in your Lord, keep up with prayers (salat) and give to poor and needy. It is these actions that will result in your final grade given in your right hand.

You talk about eeman then flip over to rewards according to the weight of deeds. It is the deeds that will be rewarded. Faith only leads to deeds but it is you who still have to do the necessary deeds for rewards. Faith itself is not going to do any deed for you.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Did you previously say that believing is not required for submitting?

You must have been confused. Now the confusion is wearing off, I suppose.

Initial believing will lead people to submission (islam) simply because of them having eeman after believing. Without eeman, they won't submit.
I stated believing is not compulsory for submission.
If you do not recognized terms can be used in the strict or loose term your statement will be confused like the above.

Quote:
No. 6 pillars are not declared in the Qur'an for eeman. There are other so-called "pillars" outside the 6 pillars of scholars that make one a Mu'min. The Qur'an does not tell you about only 6 pillars but the scholars with weak knowledge about the Qur'an tell you so. Believing is about what the Qur'an tells you rather than what the scholars tell you.
Point is you don't understand the metaphor for the use of the term 'pillars'.
"Pillars" in this case are the main supports of the concepts but do not imply they are the only supports.

Weak scholars?? You are way out of normal intellect here.
It has always been a sign on one intelligence when one can recognize patterns in information and organize them for effective use to serve some purposes.
I understand in some cases even scholars are wrong and not effective but not in this case re the concept of eeman.

Quote:
No. The Qur'an does not tell you so. The Qur'an tells you to fear Allah, do good deeds, trust in your Lord, keep up with prayers (salat) and give to poor and needy. It is these actions that will result in your final grade given in your right hand.
In the context of the Quran, perfection is one key element. "The Quran is complete and perfected .." [11:1]
Absolute total acceptance of the 6 pillars of eeman is a property of perfection which is exhorted in the Quran.

Those actions must be driven by the strength of faith [sincerity, not selfish] in the heart of a Muslim.

Quote:
You talk about eeman then flip over to rewards according to the weight of deeds. It is the deeds that will be rewarded. Faith only leads to deeds but it is you who still have to do the necessary deeds for rewards. Faith itself is not going to do any deed for you.
It is the degree and strength of one's faith that drive and enable the "weight" of the deeds.
It is said that 'faith can move mountains."
The critical element here is faith, i.e. strong faith not the action of moving.
One can push all one can, but without strong faith, the "mountain" [metaphorically] will not move.

Your general knowledge is a failure and corrupted by biasness and denial.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-02-2016 at 11:02 PM..
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Like many Arabic words eeman as a word carries various meanings depending on the intent of the speaker. The meaning of eeman is it is the name used to designate the collective Pillars of Belief. But when a person is spoken of having eeman, that is the amana (Security, trust and peace) one has as the result of the Pillars of Belief.
We are discussing 'eeman' in the context of the Quran in this case.

My point is "eeman" in the Quran is used by Allah in the strict and loose sense depending on the context.

Allah mentioned the eeman of disbelievers [32:29] this can only be in the general or loose sense, i.e. it is universal and applicable to any one, i.e. either Muslims or non-Muslims.

When Allah mentioned eeman in relation to the 6 pillars it is used in the strict sense as that is applicable to only Islam, Muslim, Quran and no one else.

In a more stricter sense, eeman in the Quran refer to trust, confidence security and conviction, in relation to the correct context. [This can also be used in the loose sense if the contexts if provided].

What is most critical with the above is the contexts of the verse, the chapter and the whole of the Quran. This has been emphasized by all.
The terms or words are not critical. Words are merely representations and by themselves are very limited. To overcome the limitations of words, what is most critical is the context the word is used.
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