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Old 05-03-2016, 03:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated believing is not compulsory for submission.
If you do not recognized terms can be used in the strict or loose term your statement will be confused like the above.
If you do not understand the precise terms in the Qur'an, your statement like, "believing is not compulsory for submission" will sound perfect for you but it is prerequisite for submission as the very first and the most important pillar for Submission (Islam) is believing Allah, "There is no god but Allah". This is not only the fundamental pillar of faith but of Submission (Islam) too. Both eeman and submission hinge on this one precise element. There would be no eeman, no submission to Allah and no Islam wihout believing in this One Pillar.

Quote:
Point is you don't understand the metaphor for the use of the term 'pillars'.
"Pillars" in this case are the main supports of the concepts but do not imply they are the only supports.
The only main support of the concepts is the 1st pillar. The rest of ALL pillars, whether 5, 6 or 9, are supported by this one main pillar. If you can't understand this, you can't understand eeman or Islam.

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Weak scholars?? You are way out of normal intellect here.
You are talking in ignorance about them.

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It has always been a sign on one intelligence when one can recognize patterns in information and organize them for effective use to serve some purposes.
In this case, purposes are served by the Qur'an and not the scholars or you.

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I understand in some cases even scholars are wrong and not effective but not in this case re the concept of eeman.
Because you say so or because the Qur'an says so?

All scholars say growing beard is compulsory. They are all wrong. I had to write a 26000 words explanation on this issue whether keeping beard is Islamic law or an ancient culture, using only the Qur'anic verses to support my view. I have yet to get any response from any scholar who had read my explanation. Most of the so-called scholars today base their views on ahadith which are not supported by the Qur'an. That's where they are going wrong.

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In the context of the Quran, perfection is one key element. "The Quran is complete and perfected .." [11:1]
Absolute total acceptance of the 6 pillars of eeman is a property of perfection which is exhorted in the Quran.
The only property of perfection regarding eeman in the Qur'an is "la ilaha illa-Allahu" ("there is no god but Allah"). This is the only perfection of eeman exhorted in the Qur'an. Every other element of eeman depends on this one perfection. Without this perfection, there is no perfection of eeman. Thus this is precise utterance reflecting precise eeman.

3:193 Our Lord! Surely we have heard a preacher calling unto "faith" ("eeman"), saying: "Believe in your Lord" ("aminoo birabbikum"), so "we did believe" ("faamanna"). Our Lord! Forgive us therefore our faults and remit our sins and make us die the death of righteous.

The verse 3:193 demonstrates precisely what is meant by "faith" ("eeman"). It is "believing in Allah" (the first and the main pillar supporting everything else). There is no "faith" ("eeman") without believing in Allah.

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Those actions must be driven by the strength of faith [sincerity, not selfish] in the heart of a Muslim.
Those actions will not be driven without the strength of the person in believing Allah.

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It is the degree and strength of one's faith that drive and enable the "weight" of the deeds.
Then it should be the faith/eeman that should be rewarded or condemned for the weight of the deeds and not the person.

Would Allah accept my excuse for bad deeds that it wasn't my fault but the fault of weak eeman?

Quote:
It is said that 'faith can move mountains."
It is not done but only said as a parable so that you may reflect/ponder. Prove if I am wrong!

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Your general knowledge is a failure and corrupted by biasness and denial.
Your knowledge and understanding about the Qur'an, Islam and eeman is in need of some airfreshner.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If you do not understand the precise terms in the Qur'an, your statement like, "believing is not compulsory for submission" will sound perfect for you but it is prerequisite for submission as the very first and the most important pillar for Submission (Islam) is believing Allah, "There is no god but Allah". This is not only the fundamental pillar of faith but of Submission (Islam) too. Both eeman and submission hinge on this one precise element. There would be no eeman, no submission to Allah and no Islam wihout believing in this One Pillar.
First you need to understand "believe" is a very loose term to start with.
All humans has an inherent "believe impulse" to facilitate survival at a higher level than animals and will believe in ALL sort of things.

Believing as a higher mental faculty than instincts and emotional responses is not a prerequisite for submission in general.
Submission is a prerequisite to be a Muslim.
Therefore 'believing' is not compulsory for being a Muslim. Some people become Muslims via various reason, e.g.
1. a baby born to Muslims parents did not believe
2. Some affirm the shahada based on emotional impulses


Quote:
The only main support of the concepts is the 1st pillar. The rest of ALL pillars, whether 5, 6 or 9, are supported by this one main pillar. If you can't understand this, you can't understand eeman or Islam.
We have been through this before.
It is obvious Allah is a central point of Islam.
However to progress with eeman [faith] in the stricter sense, one has to be familiar with the 6 pillars of eeman plus other secondary supports.

Quote:
You are talking in ignorance about them.
I know there are weak scholars and there are very good scholars.
You sound as if you are the only BEST Islamic scholars in the world, all others are weak.
Worst, you have only read the whole Quran 6-7 times.

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In this case, purposes are served by the Qur'an and not the scholars or you.
You are talking nonsense here.
This is where the tafsir, madhabs, and various expositions are done by the good scholars interpreting the Quran.

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Because you say so or because the Qur'an says so?
I have to say this is nonsense again.
The Quran don't speak by itself.
People has to interpret the Quran strictly and it is thus I and the scholars say so.

As I stated, I do not agree with the scholars in general but in this case of interpreting 'eeman' 'muslim' and 'mu'min' I agree with the scholars I have read because it make sense.

Quote:
All scholars say growing beard is compulsory. They are all wrong. I had to write a 26000 words explanation on this issue whether keeping beard is Islamic law or an ancient culture, using only the Qur'anic verses to support my view. I have yet to get any response from any scholar who had read my explanation. Most of the so-called scholars today base their views on ahadith which are not supported by the Qur'an. That's where they are going wrong.
Not all scholars said growing beard is compulsory.
I agree the Quran is primary and whatever is in the Ahadith must comply with the Quran.
In the case of eeman, even the Quran-Only scholars agree with my views.

Quote:
The only property of perfection regarding eeman in the Qur'an is "la ilaha illa-Allahu" ("there is no god but Allah"). This is the only perfection of eeman exhorted in the Qur'an. Every other element of eeman depends on this one perfection. Without this perfection, there is no perfection of eeman. Thus this is precise utterance reflecting precise eeman.


3:193 Our Lord! Surely we have heard a preacher calling unto "faith" ("eeman"), saying: "Believe in your Lord" ("aminoo birabbikum"), so "we did believe" ("faamanna"). Our Lord! Forgive us therefore our faults and remit our sins and make us die the death of righteous.

The verse 3:193 demonstrates precisely what is meant by "faith" ("eeman"). It is "believing in Allah" (the first and the main pillar supporting everything else). There is no "faith" ("eeman") without believing in Allah.
You are stating the obvious because God is supposed and claimed to be perfect.
As I had stated God is central to everything in Islam, there is no question on this issue.
Allah is perfect, the Quran is perfect but HOW can one translate that element of perfection to the concept of eeman [strict].
To do so, we have take into consideration eeman in the strict sense with its details, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.

If you keep babbling 'I want to be healthy' a million times, you will not be a healthy person. You will only be healthy when you research into the details and know exactly what to do to be healthy.

It is the same with faith in Allah. Repeating 'faith in Allah' 100 millions times [in the loose sense] will get you no where with progressive faith and adding faith to faith unless we deal with faith [eeman] in the strict term.

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Those actions will not be driven without the strength of the person in believing Allah.
Your views are too shallow and narrow in this case.
Believing loosely in Allah will not develop strength in faith.

A Muslim may start with or without believing [loose sense],
then he has to cultivate submission with islam [5 pillars of islam]
then he has to shift to believe in the strict sense and cultivate eeman in the strict sense re the 6 pillar of eeman.
It is only when his/her eeman [faith] get strong that there will be strength [piety] in his actions.


Quote:
Then it should be the faith/eeman that should be rewarded or condemned for the weight of the deeds and not the person.
What are you taking about?
When a player becomes the Wimbledon Tennis Champion by his actions [hitting the ball and winning the points], that player is rewarded based on the strength of his skills in playing tennis.

Similarly a Muslim is rewarded in Paradise based on his degree of faith-eeman [plus inhsaan and others] which drove his actions and deeds. The deeds are outer expressions but the inner drive of the eeman [and others] are more critical.

Quote:
Would Allah accept my excuse for bad deeds that it wasn't my fault but the fault of weak eeman?
It your actions are bad deeds based on weak eeman [strict], then it is your fault for not developing a stronger eeman [strict] to drive good deeds.

When a Muslims has strong eemam [strict] in accordance to the 6 pillars of eeman, that Muslim will not execute any bad deeds [except accidental ones] as the Quran and in the eyes of Allah.
For example a Muslim who has strong eeman [re 6 pillars] that Muslim will be so familiar with the commands in the 'pillar of scripture' and thus will not do anything against the Laws of Allah.

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It is not done but only said as a parable so that you may reflect/ponder. Prove if I am wrong!
I know it is metaphorical because in reality no humans can move a real mountain.
What it imply is if one has strong faith [eeman] one can do wonders, i.e. above what the average human can do.
But to develop strong faith [strictly] one has to understand and work on the 6 pillars of eeman! Merely repeating one has faith in Allah a billion times is merely wishful thinking.

Quote:
Your knowledge and understanding about the Qur'an, Islam and eeman is in need of some air freshner.
I am very confident of my knowledge of the Quran [not an expert though] because I am very objective in my approach and I interpret it in alignment with the whole of reality and human nature.

You as a believer [like any other] and Muslim MUST be very bias otherwise your faith [eeman] will not be effective to ensure salvation in Paradise and soothe the desperate psychology within.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
3:193 Our Lord! Surely we have heard a preacher calling unto "faith" ("eeman"), saying: "Believe in your Lord" ("aminoo birabbikum"), so "we did believe" ("faamanna"). Our Lord! Forgive us therefore our faults and remit our sins and make us die the death of righteous.

The verse 3:193 demonstrates precisely what is meant by "faith" ("eeman"). It is "believing in Allah" (the first and the main pillar supporting everything else). There is no "faith" ("eeman") without believing in Allah.
The verse 3:193 is a very general statement of a preaching calling any one to 'The Faith' [lil'īmāni] by believing in the Lord.

In context, this is obvious the terms "faith" and "believe" are used in the general and loose sense without any reference to eeman-in-the-strict-sense relating to the 6 pillars of eeman.

It is likely the preacher would be calling [proselytizing] on to people in a market-square or some location to exhort non-Muslims convert to his religion, i.e. the faith.
This [lil'īmāni] [the faith] is most likely to refer the religion as a "faith" [as a religion] rather than faith [eeman] as trust, conviction, security, confidence.

IF this is the case, then it show that eeman is used in a more looser term in extending to faith as a religion [alternatively 'deen'] and not faith as in trust, conviction, security, or confidence. YES? or No?
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:37 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The verse 3:193 is a very general statement of a preaching calling any one to 'The Faith' [lil'īmāni] by believing in the Lord.
It is precise statement of a preacher calling unto eeman by saying "believe in the Lord". There is no doubt left here as to how you get unto "eeman". It is by "believing in Allah".

Quote:
In context, this is obvious the terms "faith" and "believe" are used in the general and loose sense without any reference to eeman-in-the-strict-sense relating to the 6 pillars of eeman.
Even in your strict sense, it will be through "believing in Allah". None of the 6 pillars are outside "believing in Allah". Therefore, invitation to "believing in Allah" is invitation to eeman.

Quote:
It is likely the preacher would be calling [proselytizing] on to people in a market-square or some location to exhort non-Muslims convert to his religion, i.e. the faith.
Your mental gymnastics of general or loose terms like "faith" as "religion" do not work here because "faith" here is "eeman" and not "deen". Religion is loose term but "eeman" and "deen" are seperate and precise terms.

Quote:
This [lil'īmāni] [the faith] is most likely to refer the religion as a "faith" [as a religion] rather than faith [eeman] as trust, conviction, security, confidence.
Not when it clearly says what is meant by "eeman" in the verse. Why be blind to the half of the verse?

Quote:
IF this is the case, then it show that eeman is used in a more looser term in extending to faith as a religion [alternatively 'deen'] and not faith as in trust, conviction, security, or confidence. YES? or No?
It is not the case according to the verse itself.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is precise statement of a preacher calling unto eeman by saying "believe in the Lord". There is no doubt left here as to how you get unto "eeman". It is by "believing in Allah".
It may be precise in one sense to say 'Believe in X' [X = things, person or God]. In this case 'believe' and 'X' are precisely identified.
As I had stated, by asserting 'I believe in Allah' - which is precise - a million times or more will not get one anywhere unless they extend that belief in more precise terms.

A Muslim can just believe in Allah and his messenger and in addition believe what his iman told him of what "the faith" [eeman in the loose sense] promises of Allah, i.e. paradise, virgins, sensual rewards, etc. then do nothing but merely be good and hope.

On the other hand if the iman told the Muslim s/he must understand the concept of eeman [strict], know the procedures, do actions to cultivate strong eeman [strict], the Muslim will have real progress.

This is why it is so critical to differentiate eeman [faith] between strict and loose sense.

Quote:
Even in your strict sense, it will be through "believing in Allah". None of the 6 pillars are outside "believing in Allah". Therefore, invitation to "believing in Allah" is invitation to eeman.
Even if a Muslim submitted without believing [strict] in Allah, the Muslims must eventually establish belief [strict] before s/he is able to cultivate strong eeman [strict] to become a mu'min [strict].

It is obvious the 6 pillars of eeman must be preceded by "believing [strict] in Allah". I have never rejected this point.

What is critical is we must note the relevance of the strict and loose sense of eeman [faith], beliefs, believe, and other terms in the Quran.

Invitation to believe [loose] and submitting [strict] to Allah is not an automatic invitation to cultivating eeman [strict].
Some Muslims may prefer in accordance circumstances [like some the wandering Arabs] to or limited by the capability of their brain to merely be a Muslim [cultivate the 6 pillars of islam] but not the 6 pillars of eeman [faith]. The term eeman may be referred to them but only in the loose and general sense.

Quote:
Your mental gymnastics of general or loose terms like "faith" as "religion" do not work here because "faith" here is "eeman" and not "deen". Religion is loose term but "eeman" and "deen" are seperate and precise terms.
Note religion is generally a loose term but can be a strict term.
Eeman, deen and other terms in the Quran can be used in the strict or loose terms depending on the contexts. As I had stated the critical element is the context not the word.

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Not when it clearly says what is meant by "eeman" in the verse. Why be blind to the half of the verse?
The full verse reflected faith or eeman in the loose sense.
When Allah stated faith can be added to faith then that is in the strict sense.

Quote:
It is not the case according to the verse itself.
It looks like the term [lil'īmāni] refer to 'the faith' rather than to eeman or faith as a mental process re 6 pillars of eeman.
Obviously "the faith" [lil'īmāni] will imply Allah and the real process of eeman [strict] but in this case "the faith" [lil'īmāni] in 3:193 is eeman [faith] in the more looser sense.

Note,
3:193 [part] we have heard a preacher calling unto "faith" ("eeman"), saying: "Believe in your Lord"
do not imply eeman in the sense of the 6 pillars of eeman at all.
Thus the term 'eeman' is used in a very loose sense.

When Allah stated '.. add faith to faith .. ' one must know the 6 pillars of eeman [which is all over the Quran, thus need to read the whole Quran many times] and take the necessary actions to cultivate a progressive degree [keep adding faith to faith] to develop strong eeman [faith].
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It may be precise in one sense to say 'Believe in X' [X = things, person or God]. In this case 'believe' and 'X' are precisely identified.
It is precise in every sense to say "believe in Allah". In this case "believe in Allah" is identified as lileeman (to eeman).

Quote:
As I had stated, by asserting 'I believe in Allah' - which is precise - a million times or more will not get one anywhere unless they extend that belief in more precise terms.
The preacher did not say, "say, I believe in Allah" but the preacher had said, "believe in Allah". Why is your comprehension of the verse so poor?

Quote:
A Muslim can just believe in Allah and his messenger and in addition believe what his iman told him of what "the faith" [eeman in the loose sense] promises of Allah, i.e. paradise, virgins, sensual rewards, etc. then do nothing but merely be good and hope.
A person who believes in Allah has eeman. If he does not "believe" but says that he believes, he is hypocrite. Believing in Allah is more than just saying it with tongue but actully believing. It is actually believing Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul. With tongue, even the hypocrtes proclaim to have eeman.

Quote:
On the other hand if the iman told the Muslim s/he must understand the concept of eeman [strict], know the procedures, do actions to cultivate strong eeman [strict], the Muslim will have real progress.
Eeman is always precise; believing in Allah with all your heart, mind and soul.

Quote:
This is why it is so critical to differentiate eeman [faith] between strict and loose sense.
I see that you would love to divide eeman in to 2 pieces, loose and strict but there is no such thing as eeman in loose sense. It is always believing in Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul. That is what is meant by believing in Allah and having faith (eeman).

Quote:
Even if a Muslim submitted without believing [strict] in Allah, the Muslims must eventually establish belief [strict] before s/he is able to cultivate strong eeman [strict] to become a mu'min [strict].
There isn't even one Muslim who does not believe in Allah. All the pillars are supported by just One Pillar about "believing in Allah". Everything else is cultivated from "believing in Allah".

Quote:
It is obvious the 6 pillars of eeman must be preceded by "believing [strict] in Allah". I have never rejected this point.
Then what's stopping you from cultivating everything else from this just as the scholars have cutivated quite a few pillars from this One Big Pillar?

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What is critical is we must note the relevance of the strict and loose sense of eeman [faith], beliefs, believe, and other terms in the Quran.
That can be done only by ignoring or breaking up the precise terms in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Invitation to believe [loose] and submitting [strict] to Allah is not an automatic invitation to cultivating eeman [strict].
Invitation to "believe"/"aminoo" (precise) "in your Lord"/"birabbikum"(precise) is invitation to "eeman" (precise).

Quote:
Some Muslims may prefer in accordance circumstances [like some the wandering Arabs] to or limited by the capability of their brain to merely be a Muslim [cultivate the 6 pillars of islam] but not the 6 pillars of eeman [faith]. The term eeman may be referred to them but only in the loose and general sense.
without the 1st and the main pillar of faith, no other pillar of either faith or Islam will remain standing. This is why eeman, believing in Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul is prerequisite in Islam or else one's deeds are of no use.

Quote:
Note religion is generally a loose term but can be a strict term.
This is why deen of Islam is precisely the Way of Allah, the straight path.

Quote:
Eeman, deen and other terms in the Quran can be used in the strict or loose terms depending on the contexts. As I had stated the critical element is the context not the word.
The context is the Qur'anic context rather than a context.in English language or in wikipedia.

Quote:
The full verse reflected faith or eeman in the loose sense.
When Allah stated faith can be added to faith then that is in the strict sense.
Allah says, "believe in your Lord". You believe so and you have eeman. Then Allah sends another message, Muhammad is messenger of Allah. As you believe in Allah, you will believe Allah that Muhammad is His messenger. You believe again so you have eeman again. Is it 2 eemans, 1st plus 2nd or just eeman consolidated by the second message?

You have eeman that Muhmmad is messenger of Allah. Then Allah sends another message through His messenger, There are angels who do as I command them to do. You believe Allah once more. Is that your eeman tripled or you strengthened in eeman (in believing Allah) by your eeman being condolidated?

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It looks like the term [lil'īmāni] refer to 'the faith' rather than to eeman or faith as a mental process re 6 pillars of eeman.
Eeman IS faith in Allah. In his verse, it is absolutely clear as to what is meant by invitation "unto faith"; "believe in your Lord". "Believing" in your Lord is initially done through mental process rather than through physical process. That's how it enters your heart; through your mind.

Quote:
Obviously "the faith" [lil'īmāni] will imply Allah and the real process of eeman [strict] but in this case "the faith" [lil'īmāni] in 3:193 is eeman [faith] in the more looser sense.
Acually, I should help you a little in understanding believe in "birabbikum" is quite looser sense and so is "lileemani" ("unto faith"). It is all made clear in a Qur'an that is written in quite loose sense. I have yet to read it because it is in your possession and not mine. Could I borrow it so that I too can understand all those term in loose sense?

Quote:
Note,
3:193 [part] we have heard a preacher calling unto "faith" ("eeman"), saying: "Believe in your Lord"
do not imply eeman in the sense of the 6 pillars of eeman at all.
Thus the term 'eeman' is used in a very loose sense.-
Yeah! It must be in loose sense because it does not say "believe in Allah" but "believe in your Lord". As there are quite a few lords about, it must be in loose term. See! I have no problem in agreeing with you in loose sense.

Quote:
When Allah stated '.. add faith to faith .. ' one must know the 6 pillars of eeman [which is all over the Quran, thus need to read the whole Quran many times] and take the necessary actions to cultivate a progressive degree [keep adding faith to faith] to develop strong eeman [faith].
It means believe every message; not just the first message. Adding faith in faith means having faith after faith every time a verse is revealed after verse. They were having faith after faith for 23 years the verses were being revealed. It was consolidating their eeman each time rather than piling up eeman on top of eeman in quantity.

Eeman enters a person's heart the moment he believes in his Lord. It is, from that moment onwards, impressed in his heart. It is the person who gets strenghened by the ruh from Allah through the verses of the Qur'an. In reality, eeman is always there kbut it is the nature with which man was created (weak) that he gets strenghthened by the ruh to make him steadfast in his eeman.
Read 58:22 and you will understand what I mean here.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is precise in every sense to say "believe in Allah". In this case "believe in Allah" is identified as lileeman (to eeman).
As I had stated believe in Allah may lead to eeman in the loose sense but not eeman in the strict sense as related specifically to the 6 main pillars of eeman.
"Believe" is a very loose term on the part of the believer, therefore to be precise or strict one has to qualify the term sufficiently.

In 3:193 'believe in Allah or the Lord' cannot be directly link to eeman in the strict sense until one has identified the 6 mail pillars of eeman for deliberation.

Quote:
The preacher did not say, "say, I believe in Allah" but the preacher had said, "believe in Allah". Why is your comprehension of the verse so poor?
It is your comprehension that is poor.
I am not translating 3:193 but discuss its application by a believer.
IF Allah exhort people to 'believe in Allah' obviously the believer will inevitably say 'I believe in Allah' to others on that subject.

Quote:
A person who believes in Allah has eeman. If he does not "believe" but says that he believes, he is hypocrite. Believing in Allah is more than just saying it with tongue but actully believing. It is actually believing Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul. With tongue, even the hypocrtes proclaim to have eeman.
We are not discussing hypocrites and those who pretend to believe.
As I have stated believing is a mental process that involve many factors in the mind and the environment.
There is no way a person and ALL believers can instantly believe with all their mind and all their soul in the first instance they affirm the Shahada.
To believe with ALL of one's mind and all of one's soul, one need to develop it over time and this is where eeman in the strict sense, i.e. the 6 main pillars of eeman is taken into consideration for deliberation.

Note there is such a thing as blind believe and blind faith with sure strong faith on the other extreme and various degrees in between. This is why we need to differentiate between faith [eeman] in general and faith in the strict sense.

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Eeman is always precise; believing in Allah with all your heart, mind and soul.
No! as explained above.

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I see that you would love to divide eeman in to 2 pieces, loose and strict but there is no such thing as eeman in loose sense. It is always believing in Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul. That is what is meant by believing in Allah and having faith (eeman).
I mentioned eeman in the strict and loose sense as a convenience, in reality it is on a continuum not either black or white but with all the shades of grey in between.

Quote:
There isn't even one Muslim who does not believe in Allah. All the pillars are supported by just One Pillar about "believing in Allah". Everything else is cultivated from "believing in Allah".
Yes all Muslims believe in Allah in the loose sense but not all Muslims believe in Allah in the strict sense.
You are stating the obvious which does not promote development and progress of one's faith [eeman] in Allah.

Your point is the same as the following;
For example, in general All pillars of academic learning is supported by ONE PILLAR, i.e. going to a school.
Everything else relating to learning is cultivated from 'going to school' to learn.
This point is the most critical in terms of academic learning but by itself without getting more precise [stricter] into the details of schooling and learning will not promote real effective learning and progress.


Quote:
Then what's stopping you from cultivating everything else from this just as the scholars have cultivated quite a few pillars from this One Big Pillar?
Your thinking is really stuck in the mud.
The ONE Big Pillar [believe in Alah] is most important but after one has dealt with it properly [securely], then one has to move on to the more specific areas of eeman in the strict sense.
Example, the foundation of a house is important, but once the foundation is done properly there is no need to focus too much on it but shift one focus to building the pillars and other elements of the building.

Quote:
without the 1st and the main pillar of faith, no other pillar of either faith or Islam will remain standing. This is why eeman, believing in Allah with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul is prerequisite in Islam or else one's deeds are of no use.
This is obvious.
Without a strong foundation, the other pillars of a building will surely topple.
When Allah refer to eeman in general, it is just like loosely saying a building need pillars after the foundation is built but there is no reference to the details of the pillars in the strict sense.

To deliberate on the proper pillars and their details we have to refer to these pillars in the strict, exact, and precise sense, i.e. the exact types and quality of rebar, cement, sand, mixture, timing, size, etc. to ensure the pillars are strong enough to support the rest of the building.

Similarly, when Allah refers to eeman [faith] in the loose sense, it is just like an architect saying 'pillars are needed to support a building.'
When Allah refers to eeman [faith] in the strict sense, then it is just a like an architect saying, 'the pillars must be constructed with a specific kind of rebar steel, specific cement and how it is mixed and whatever is necessary to ensure the pillars meet specifications and standards.

Since you are in engineering, you should understand when you are speaking of an engine in the general/loose sense and when you are speaking of the engine in the stricter sense by dealing with the blueprints, modeling, materials, production, quality control, testing, commissioning, etc.

The above principles of strict and loose apply similarly to believing and faith in Allah because they are all happening in the 'Belief Engine' in the generic human brain.

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This is why deen of Islam is precisely the Way of Allah, the straight path.
From a comparative religion point of view, the deen of Islam is very much inferior to the deen [in different names] of the other mainstream religions.

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The context is the Qur'anic context rather than a context.in English language or in wikipedia.
Why are you countering this ABC point?
To understand a term effective it must be accompanied by clear contexts, period.

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Allah says, "believe in your Lord". You believe so and you have eeman. Then Allah sends another message, Muhammad is messenger of Allah. As you believe in Allah, you will believe Allah that Muhammad is His messenger. You believe again so you have eeman again. Is it 2 eemans, 1st plus 2nd or just eeman consolidated by the second message?
You have eeman that Muhmmad is messenger of Allah. Then Allah sends another message through His messenger, There are angels who do as I command them to do. You believe Allah once more. Is that your eeman tripled or you strengthened in eeman (in believing Allah) by your eeman being condolidated?
We have discussed this before. Eeman [faith] in general is a state of mind based on mental processes.
A state of mind has a continuum of degrees.
For example one can feel sleepy from low degree [say 1] to high [90/100] till one fall asleep [100/100].
There are many factors that can make one sleepy and increase one's sleepiness till one fall asleep.
The factors and elements that can cause a state of sleepiness are for example,

1. Lack of sleep
2. Boringness
3. Various drugs
4. Tiredness
5. Exercise till tired
6. Reading
7. Soothing sounds
8. Other elements.

One degree of sleepiness can start with say 1 and increase with the addition of the other elements in various quantity.

Similarly a believer can start with elements of eeman [faith] in the looser sense and reinforced and increase by adding the elements of the main pillars of eeman to increase the degree and strength of one's faith.

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Eeman IS faith in Allah. In his verse, it is absolutely clear as to what is meant by invitation "unto faith"; "believe in your Lord". "Believing" in your Lord is initially done through mental process rather than through physical process. That's how it enters your heart; through your mind.
Believing is fundamentally a mental process and reinforced by physical process on a secondary basis.
There are 1.5 billion Muslims and each start with different degree of beliefs depending on one mental state. There is no way a believer can start with believing based on ALL of one's mind and all of one soul.

A believer may think or believe s/he has believed Allah based on ALL of one's mind and all of one soul, but that is the person's subjective feeling and opinion but not the real case in terms of what is going on in his/her mind.
There are many cases of people thinking and believing they are the smartest student but thinking and believing do not make one in reality. To be sure, one must deliberate on studying and learning in the strict sense, then study properly and take various tests to verify one's level of capability.


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Actually, I should help you a little in understanding believe in "birabbikum" is quite looser sense and so is "lileemani" ("unto faith"). It is all made clear in a Qur'an that is written in quite loose sense. I have yet to read it because it is in your possession and not mine. Could I borrow it so that I too can understand all those term in loose sense?
You are kicking your own back now that you are changing your mind and agreeing with what is strict and loose sense.
I had already said the eeman in 3:193 is in the loose sense.

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Yeah! It must be in loose sense because it does not say "believe in Allah" but "believe in your Lord". As there are quite a few lords about, it must be in loose term. See! I have no problem in agreeing with you in loose sense.
Actually the "lord" in 3:193 is not very loose. In 3:191, it is specifically related to Allah.
But my point here is "lileemani" [the faith] is used in the loose sense and not directly referring to eeman in the strict sense as in the 6 main pillars of eeman at this point.

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It means believe every message; not just the first message. Adding faith in faith means having faith after faith every time a verse is revealed after verse. They were having faith after faith for 23 years the verses were being revealed. It was consolidating their eeman each time rather than piling up eeman on top of eeman in quantity.
You are ignorant in this case.
Eeman is a state of mind with degrees from 1/100 to 100/100.
When one is able to understand eeman in the strict sense, i.e. identifying and collating the 6 main pillars of eeman, then working on the elements diligently one will be able to cultivate and increase one's eeman by adding degrees of faith to one's existing cumulative degrees of faith.

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Eeman enters a person's heart the moment he believes in his Lord. It is, from that moment onwards, impressed in his heart. It is the person who gets strenghened by the ruh from Allah through the verses of the Qur'an. In reality, eeman is always there kbut it is the nature with which man was created (weak) that he gets strenghthened by the ruh to make him steadfast in his eeman.
Read 58:22 and you will understand what I mean here.
If a person merely believe in Allah in the general sense, i.e. with a very low degree of believe, there may not be any degree of eeman [strict] sense entering into the person's heart.
To ensure eeman [strict] penetrate into one's heart a Muslim must focus on eeman in the strict sense, i.e. the 6 main pillars of eeman.
By the way, before one can cultivate the strong eeman in the strict sense, a Muslims must cultivate sufficient degrees of submission [islam] based on being diligently practicing the 5 pillars of islam [haj not obligatory].
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:49 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated believe in Allah may lead to eeman in the loose sense but not eeman in the strict sense as related specifically to the 6 main pillars of eeman.
"Believe" is a very loose term on the part of the believer, therefore to be precise or strict one has to qualify the term sufficiently.
Believe in Allah includes all pillars linked to such believe. There is no other way to qualify the term except to believe in Allah sincerely. Believe in loose sense is no believe. It has been clearly rejected by Allah in 49:14 as no believe. Believe in only precise sense is accepted by Allah.

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In 3:193 'believe in Allah or the Lord' cannot be directly lins k to eeman in the strict sense until one has identified the 6 mail pillars of eeman for deliberation.
How do you know their eeman was not precise eeman? It is obvious that you did not even understand the passage in which is the verse 3:193. You are looking for a straw in the verse that isn't there at all.

The verse 3:193 is part of a prayer by the believers (who were invited to eeman). They had believed in Allah ( "their Lord"), had eeman, and Allah had accepted their prayer. Their eeman was precise eeman. If you do not believe (loose) me, show me from the passage how did you conclude that those believers did not have precise eaman!

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It is your comprehension that is poor.
I am not translating 3:193 but discuss its application by a believer.
IF Allah exhort people to 'believe in Allah' obviously the believer will inevitably say 'I believe in Allah' to others on that subject.
We already know that a group of people had said that they believe (in 49:14) but they did not really believe (had no eeman). Another group of people are saying the same thing that they believe (in 3:193). So, how do you differentiate between the believe of the two groups of people after they were invited to believe and both had said that they believe?

I can accept that the group in 49:14 did not believe in the 6 pillars of faith as Allah confirmed that the group did not believe. There is no doubt left about this group of people that they did not have eeman (precise). But how did you conclude that the group in 3:193 did not have eeman (precise)? Is it just your mere hunch or is it because of some statement in the passage (as was in the verse 49:14)?

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I mentioned eeman in the strict and loose sense as a convenience, in reality it is on a continuum not either black or white but with all the shades of grey in between.
That is progress!

How many shades of grey are there in between loose sense and strict sense? Is it 4 pillars between the 1st and the 6th?

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Yes all Muslims believe in Allah in the loose sense but not all Muslims believe in Allah in the strict sense.
You are stating the obvious which does not promote development and progress of one's faith [eeman] in Allah.
How does one's faith in Allah progress within the 6 pillars?

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Your point is the same as the following;
For example, in general All pillars of academic learning is supported by ONE PILLAR, i.e. going to a school.
Everything else relating to learning is cultivated from 'going to school' to learn.
This point is the most critical in terms of academic learning but by itself without getting more precise [stricter] into the details of schooling and learning will not promote real effective learning and progress.
No. You misunderstand.

My point was rather believing in acedemic learning is the ONE BIG PILLAR. Once you begin learning, you are a learner. This is the same as believing in Allah is ONE BIG PILLAR and once you begin to believe (yu'minuna) you have faith (eeman), and you are a believer (mu'min).

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You are kicking your own back now that you are changing your mind and agreeing with what is strict and loose sense.
I had already said the eeman in 3:193 is in the loose sense.
You do not understand the verse 3:193. Eeman of the group of people in 3:193 is precise eeman (eeman in precise sense if you like).

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Actually the "lord" in 3:193 is not very loose. In 3:191, it is specifically related to Allah.
But my point here is "lileemani" [the faith] is used in the loose sense and not directly referring to eeman in the strict sense as in the 6 main pillars of eeman at this point.
How do you conclude so, mere hunch or it is said so somewhere inthe context of the verse or in this passage in the Qur'an?

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If a person merely believe in Allah in the general sense, i.e. with a very low degree of believe, there may not be any degree of eeman [strict] sense...
You are creating ifs and buts in general sense and then coming to a conclusion that you had reached before you even began. The believers in 3:193 were not "merely believing" in general sense but in precise sense. I am sure of that after understanding the passage..

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To ensure eeman [strict] penetrate into one's heart a Muslim must focus on eeman in the strict sense, i.e. the 6 main pillars of eeman.
I can understand your problem now. No Muslim has ever focused on eeman in the strict sense and that's why you haven't ensured eeman (strict) penetrates your heart.

How can you focus on eeman in the strict sense when eeman hasn't even entered into your heart?

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By the way, before one can cultivate the strong eeman in the strict sense, a Muslims must cultivate sufficient degrees of submission [islam] based on being diligently practicing the 5 pillars of islam [haj not obligatory].
No Islam without the first pillar, which is believing in Allah and His messenger.
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Believe in Allah includes all pillars linked to such believe. There is no other way to qualify the term except to believe in Allah sincerely. Believe in loose sense is no believe. It has been clearly rejected by Allah in 49:14 as no believe. Believe in only precise sense is accepted by Allah.
Believe in general is a very complex, extensive and can be a very complicated process that involve a lot of factors. This is why I raised so many threads on the subject relating to 'believe' to increase and raise your awareness so you can have access to understand [not sure you can understand it or not] of the subject.

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How do you know their eeman was not precise eeman? It is obvious that you did not even understand the passage in which is the verse 3:193. You are looking for a straw in the verse that isn't there at all.

The verse 3:193 is part of a prayer by the believers (who were invited to eeman). They had believed in Allah ( "their Lord"), had eeman, and Allah had accepted their prayer. Their eeman was precise eeman. If you do not believe (loose) me, show me from the passage how did you conclude that those believers did not have precise eaman!
Note we are discussing in this case whether eeman [faith] is in the precise, strict, or loose sense.
The term "eeman" in 3:193 was used in the general and loose sense not the strict sense.

This is just like some one going to Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner and some preacher calling that person to "the faith" of Islam by calling "Believe in Your Lord." This is a very general or and rather public statement and thus it is in the loose sense.

However if your iman ask you to increase the strength of your faith by putting more efforts in the 6 pillars of eeman, then that iman is speaking of eeman [faith] in the strict sense. In this case, the iman has zoomed into the specifics of the process of eeman.

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We already know that a group of people had said that they believe (in 49:14) but they did not really believe (had no eeman).
Another group of people are saying the same thing that they believe (in 3:193). So, how do you differentiate between the believe of the two groups of people after they were invited to believe and both had said that they believe?
In the contexts of 49:14 the wandering Arabs were trying to assert proudly [or ignorantly] as if they were serious believers [strict] by stating "We believe [strict]."
Allah conveyed to them by stating, NO! you are not serious believers [strictly] yet but merely have submitted [islam]. They are not serious believers [strict] because the faith [strict] has not entered their hearts as they have not focused on the 6 pillars of eeman.

The group in 3:193 stated they believe but they believe in the general or loose sense. It is just like 'we were advised to believe [generally] so we believe [generally or loosely]. There is no talk of the specific 6 pillars of eeman.

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I can accept that the group in 49:14 did not believe in the 6 pillars of faith as Allah confirmed that the group did not believe. There is no doubt left about this group of people that they did not have eeman (precise). But how did you conclude that the group in 3:193 did not have eeman (precise)? Is it just your mere hunch or is it because of some statement in the passage (as was in the verse 49:14)?
Allah conveyed they have not believed in the strict sense.
However it is implied they have believed in the loose sense and Allah conveyed they had submitted [strict sense] and thus are Muslims as confirmed in 49:17.

The point is this:
1. In 49:14 the wandering claimed the believed in the strict sense.
It is not mentioned but it is implied in the contexts of the verse and 49:17 they had believed-in-the-loose- sense.
2. Based on a believe in the loose sense, they had submitted to Allah and thus were Muslims [49:17].

Note I stated in 3:193 eeman is used in the general and loose sense which is applicable to any one and any Muslim. Muhammad was preaching to people to believe [loose] in Allah, so these group of people believed [loose]. There is no indication of eeman in the strict sense at all in 3:193.

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That is progress!

How many shades of grey are there in between loose sense and strict sense? Is it 4 pillars between the 1st and the 6th?
It can be tens, hundreds or a million+ shades of grey between strict and loose sense depending on the criteria one use since we are referring to a eeman [strict] as a mental state.
It is not between the 1st and the 6th.
I have explained this before.
If we have 6 pillars then the total ideal strength of eeman is 6x100/600 or its %.
First we assess the grades for each pillar and add all the grades of the pillars then divide by 6 to get the average score.
If the score is 10% then the eeman [strict] is low while above 50% to 75% is medium and above 75% is strong. Note the above are only relative figures and we will not be able to compute the exact % but can arrive at estimates.

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How does one's faith in Allah progress within the 6 pillars?
To increase one's overall faith [strict] one will have to put in additional efforts to work on each and all of the 6 pillars in terms of devotion, emotions, intellect, wisdom, worship, duty, serving Allah, and whatever that is necessary.

To increase the degree in the 1st pillar, i.e. absolute and total acceptance of Allah as the only God, the Muslims will need to read the Quran thoroughly and reflect deeply on the tawhid of God. I won't go into the details but there is a lot to do to understand, interact and realize God to a higher degree possible.

As for the 3rd Pillar [re Scriptures], a Muslim will have to read the Quran more times and understand more thoroughly the meaning of every of the 6,236 verses of the Quran and be prepared to obey whatever is necessary from the whole Quran.
There is no way for a beginner Muslim to understand fully and have great depth of the verses of the Quran in the intellectual, religious and spiritual within one day, one month after he has submitted converted to be a Muslim. Thus to cultivate serious eeman [strict] with greater strength a Muslim must put in the extra effort.
In terms of the 3rd pillar, i.e. scriptures, Allah had exhorted Muslims to reflect, reflect and reflect [tatafakkarūna تَتَفَكَّرُونَ ف ك ر ] and heed [yadhakkaru يَذَّكَّرُ ذ ك ] all the time and this in relation to development of eeman [faith, believe] in the strict sense.

Similar great mental efforts with practices has to be applied to the other 4 pillars and in general the incremental and sufficient results of eeman, faith, believe in the strict sense can only be achieved over some time.
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. You misunderstand.
My point was rather believing in acedemic learning is the ONE BIG PILLAR. Once you begin learning, you are a learner. This is the same as believing in Allah is ONE BIG PILLAR and once you begin to believe (yu'minuna) you have faith (eeman), and you are a believer (mu'min).
Yes, once a person begin learning, s/he is a learner.
But at each stage of learning, the learner is learning different things in different grades.
A kindergarten child is a learner, a university student is a learner, a PhD student is also a learner.
When we say a learner gains knowledge, that is in the general or loose sense.
When we focus of on leaner and learning in the strict sense, then we discuss the different types of learning with its different type of knowledge learned, the difficulty, coverage, etc..

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You do not understand the verse 3:193. Eeman of the group of people in 3:193 is precise eeman (eeman in precise sense if you like).
I am well aware 3:193 related to the al-albabi [men of understanding].
As I had stated the term 'eeman' in 3:193 is used in the general or loose sense without reference to the 6 pillars of eeman. This group of people were called to believe and they believed in Allah to become Muslims generally not strictly.

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How do you conclude so, mere hunch or it is said so somewhere in the context of the verse or in this passage in the Qur'an?
As I had stated, in the context of 3:193 this group of people were called to believe and they believed in Allah to become Muslims generally.

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You are creating ifs and buts in general sense and then coming to a conclusion that you had reached before you even began. The believers in 3:193 were not "merely believing" in general sense but in precise sense. I am sure of that after understanding the passage..
What wrong with ifs and buts if they are used in the right context.
As stated above, this group of people were called to believe [somewhere] and they believed in Allah to become Muslims generally not strictly.

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I can understand your problem now. No Muslim has ever focused on eeman in the strict sense and that's why you haven't ensured eeman (strict) penetrates your heart.
When a Muslim believe general, loosely there is no eeman [strict] strong enough to penetrate the heart yet.

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How can you focus on eeman in the strict sense when eeman hasn't even entered into your heart?
The point here is one focus on cultivate strong eeman [in the strict] so that it gradually become stronger and stronger till it penetrate one's heart.
A baby Muslim do not have any eeman in the strict sense, thus cannot penetrate his heart.
It is only when the baby grows up, focus on the development of the 6 pillars of eeman that s/he will reach a stage when his eeman is strong enough to penetrate and enter into his/her heart. Thereafter s/he will have to continually increase the strength of his/her faith [strict].

Similarly there are Muslims who are influenced by so many factors in believing [loose] in Allah.
These factors can be social, political, family, friends, obligations, etc. that prompt someone to believe [loose with some degree of sincerity] in Allah. There is no way the 1.5 billion of Muslims who believe in Allah will have the same degree of believe in their brain and mind. Their "engine of belief" cannot be the same in terms of power and strength when the first believe in Allah and affirm the Shahada explicitly or implicitly.

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No Islam without the first pillar, which is believing in Allah and His messenger.
I have not disputed this point.
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