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Old 04-22-2016, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Eeman has the following root words.
Alif-Meem-Nun

If you are linguistic competent [I know you are not] you will find that "eeman" has the same root and is within the same family of words [bolded], like believe, believers, faith, beliefs.

The critical term here is the mental process of believing [aamana] which results in believers [mu'min] who has beliefs [eeman].

Those not bolded belong to a different family [indirectly related], e.g. trust, secure, safe, peace, etc.

Thus,
Eeman is belief [one type of belief within its qualified contexts] but
Belief is not eeman regardless of the contexts.

In the Quran the words related to eeman are used in the strict and loose sense.


Alif-Meem-Nun and its family of related words.
Amina
(prf. 3rd. p.m. sing.)
Became safe; Considered one self safe; Trusted a person.

Aminuu
(prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They are in safety.

Amintum
(prf. 2nd. p.m. plu.)
You are in safety.

Antintu
(prf. 1st. p. sing.)
I trusted.

Ya'manu
(imp. 3rd. p.m. sing.)
He feels secure.

Ya'manuu
(imp. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They trust.

Ta'manu
(imp. 2nd p.m. sing.)
Thou trusts.

Aamanu
(imp. 1st. p. sing.)
I shall trust.

Aamana
(prf. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV)
He believed, had a faith.

Aamanat
(prf. 3rd p. f. sing.)
She believed.

Aamantu
(prf. 1st. P. sing. IV)
I believed.

Aamanuu
(prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They believed.

Aamantum
(prf. 2nd. p.m. plu.)
You believed.

Aamannaa
(prf. 1st. p. plu.)
We believed.

Yu'mina
(imp. 3rd p.m. sing.)
He believes.

Tu'minuu
(imp. 2nd. p. m. plu.)
You believe.

Yu'minuuna
(imp. 3rd. p. m. plu.)
They believe.

Tuu'minu / Tuminuuna
(imp. 2nd. p. m. plu.)
You believe.

Nu'minu
(imp. 1st. p. plu.)
We believe.

Yu'minanna
(imp. 3rd. p.m. sing. emphatic.)
He certainly shall believe.

Tuu'minanna
(imp. 2nd. p. m. sing. emp.)
Thou shall have to believe.

Nu'minanna
(imp. 1st. p. plu. emp.)
We shall certainly be believing.

Aman
(n.)
Security. Peace.

Aaminun/Aaminatu
(act. pic. m. sing.) / (act. p.c. f sing.)
Peaceful.

Aaminiina/ Aaminuuna
(acc./ act. pie. m. plu.)
Those who are safe, in peace, secure.

Amiinun
(act. 2nd. pic.)
Trustworthy; Faithful; Steadfast.

Aamanatun
(n.)
Security.

Amaanatun
(n.)
Trust; Security; Pledge; Covenant; Faith; Trust. Duties; Government; Governed duties.

Amaanaat
(n. plu.)
Trusts.

U'tumina
(n.)
Who is entrusted.

Iimaan
(n.)
Faith; Belief.

Aamiin
Be it so; Yes.

Muu'min
(ap-der. m. sing. IV)
Believer.

Muu'miniin / Muu'minuuna
(acc./ ap-der. m. plu. IV)
Believers.

Muu'minaatun
(ap-der. female. sing. IV):
Believer

Muu'minaatun
(ap-der. f. plu. IV)
Believing women.

Ma'manun
(n. for place)
Place of safety.

Ma'muunun
(pact. pic.)
Secured.
I should have mentioned in my post above that Eeman and the rest of the words you named (and probably many more) are derived from th word Amana which is spelled with the letters Alif, Meem, Nun.

Alif meem Nun are letters not words. In the original written Arabic they all would have been spelled alif, Meem, Nun differing only in punctuation. Even today some of them are still spelled alif, Meem, Nun

But all that is a moot point as Eeman is the name given to a group of sentences. If one sentence is not there it is no longer Eeman. If a sentence is added it is no longer Eeman. When one says the word Eeman the thought invoked is: Those 6 specific sentences. There is no such thing as part Eeman because if not complete it is not eeman.

Another way to look at it is the 6 pillars of faith. If you leave one off you can not call them the 6 pillars of faith. similar if you leave one part of eeman off it is no longer Eeman.
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Eeman is not a type of belief. It is a label to identify a specific group of beliefs.
Do you think the label [form] is more critical than the substance of eeman?
The substance of eeman [strict] is fundamentally beliefs, i.e. specific type of beliefs.

Eeman [strict sense] is a type of belief with a specific set of qualities, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.

Example;
An apple is a type of fruit.
An apple is a fruit with specific elements of a fruit.
Not all fruits are apples.

Similarly
1. Eeman is a type of belief.
2. Eeman is a belief with a specific group of beliefs or elements of beliefs (6 pillars of eeman).
3. Not all beliefs are eeman.

Therefore it is not wrong to state 'eeman is a type of belief' with contexts as in the above.
In this case we have the whole Quran as the determining and conditioning context.
Thus when we say eeman [strict] is belief [type of] by default it is Islamic and refer to the 6 pillars of eeman and it cannot be beliefs in the Christian, Judaism or other religious sense.

Btw are you familiar with Family, genus and species as in biology?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus

Family = generic beliefs from believing
Genus = Islamic beliefs
Species= Eeman as a type of specific Islamic beliefs

Note beside eeman, the other species of belief in Islam are islam [submission], inhsaan and others.

Quote:
Another way to look at it is the 6 pillars of faith. If you leave one off you can not call them the 6 pillars of faith. similar if you leave one part of eeman off it is no longer Eeman.
Allah did not specify the '6 pillars of eeman' in the Quran. This set of "6-pillars-of-eeman" is extracted by humans to facilitate communications of various purposes.

If we leave out one pillar [not the main], we are still taking about beliefs, i.e. a certain set of beliefs, in this case 5 [6-1] pillars which meant eeman with 6 pillars would not be stronger than one that has 6 pillars.

Note for example the 5 pillars of islam where the pillar of haj is not obligatory. Therefore if we leave out haj and called that 4-pillars-of-islam, this basic core beliefs are still valid for a Muslim and not a sin to Allah.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-22-2016 at 11:22 PM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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You keep insisting I equate eeman as belief in the exact sense despite me denying many times as stated below in post #5 and many other posts;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my OP, the critical words are "correlated" and "reconcilable."
I did not insist "eeman" is exactly "belief" [English].
From the above can you confirm I have not insisted "eeman" is exactly "belief" to avoid false repetitions and misrepresentations.
My assertion is "eeman" can be interpreted as "belief" within contexts, i.e.

1. eeman is a type of Islamic belief with specific elements of belief, but
2. not all beliefs are eeman.

Another critical point:
What is most critical to Islam and other religions or spirituality is 'beliefs' which arise from the mental process of believing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

This is why most religions are called "faith" [i.e. a full set of beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons].

Islam is one set of beliefs with eeman as a subset of beliefs within Islam.

Thus the central and critical element is 'beliefs.'
This why I insist there is nothing wrong to assert eeman [strict or loose] is beliefs, i.e. qualified or implied as a specific type of beliefs within Islam.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-22-2016 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Do you think the label [form] is more critical than the substance of eeman?
The substance of eeman [strict] is fundamentally beliefs, i.e. specific type of beliefs.
Deen has several beliefs but deen is not beliefs. The two are related but are distinct in their own right. Eeman is about beliefs but eeman is not beliefs.

Quote:
Eeman [strict sense] is a type of belief with a specific set of qualities, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.
Eeman is neither a belief nor beliefs but the quality of believing in those collectively beliefs.

Quote:
Example;
An apple is a type of fruit.
An apple is a fruit with specific elements of a fruit.
Not all fruits are apples.
Therefore fruit is not apple.

Quote:
Similarly
1. Eeman is a type of belief.
2. Eeman is a belief with a specific group of beliefs or elements of beliefs (6 pillars of eeman).
3. Not all beliefs are eeman.
None of the beliefs are eeman. Eeman is the precise Quality of faith in certain beliefs collectively.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Try another approach

"Tom Sawyer" is the title of a book a rather lengthy book
"Johnathon Lingston Seagull" is the title of a quite short book

They are both books Either is the Title of a book The Title of book is not a loose definition of the contents of the book

There is a short book about containing the 6 Pillars of Faith the title of that Book is "Eeman" Eeman is not a definition of the contents of the book.

If you think of Eeman in the aspect of being a book title you will be much closer to understanding Eeman and why it is not a loose term of Faith. It is the specific title of a specific book.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Deen has several beliefs but deen is not beliefs. The two are related but are distinct in their own right. Eeman is about beliefs but eeman is not beliefs.
Deen and beliefs are related but their relations are very distant from each other.
Deen is like atoms and beliefs are solid material made of atoms.
Deen is like carbon atoms and beliefs are like diamond [pure carbon].

The relation between eeman and beliefs is closer.
It is like water to ice, steam, vapor.
Ice, steam, vapor are merely different form of water at different temperature and settings.
For example, steam is water as eeman is to belief.
We can say steam is water in the loose sense just as we can say eeman is belief in the loose sense.

Quote:
Eeman is neither a belief nor beliefs but the quality of believing in those collectively beliefs.
None of the beliefs are eeman. Eeman is the precise Quality of faith in certain beliefs collectively.
Eeman [strict sense] is belief [strict sense] i.e. a specific collective set of beliefs represented by the 6 pillars of eeman.
But eeman [loose sense] is belief [loose sense].
It is matter of stating the context.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Try another approach

"Tom Sawyer" is the title of a book a rather lengthy book
"Johnathon Lingston Seagull" is the title of a quite short book

They are both books Either is the Title of a book The Title of book is not a loose definition of the contents of the book

There is a short book about containing the 6 Pillars of Faith the title of that Book is "Eeman" Eeman is not a definition of the contents of the book.

If you think of Eeman in the aspect of being a book title you will be much closer to understanding Eeman and why it is not a loose term of Faith. It is the specific title of a specific book.
Note my explanation of eeman in the strict and loose sense above.
Your above analogy do not work because you are referring to the unique contents of the books.

However if you take 100 books on say Basic Chemistry with different titles.
Whilst the different books has different titles, they are all about Basic Chemistry which the core principles are the same except the authors use different words, examples, images.
It is a fact the 100 books are all 'Basic Chemistry.'
In this analogy, eeman is equivalent to the subject [i.e. Basic Chemistry] of the 100 books.

I have been stating from the beginning, eeman [STRICT sense] is represented by the 6 pillars of eeman [as defined by humans, not Allah] collectively. Note, I was the one who introduced the "6 pillars of eeman" which you and Khalif were doubtful of it.
However I added eeman can be used loosely to represent belief loosely without imply beliefs = eeman.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is one perspective of reconciling "eeman" with "beliefs" within reality.

Where eeman [strict] as belief is within the hierarchy of reality.
1. Reality

2. Universe

3. Our Solar System

4. Earth -Things [living and non-living] and humans

5. Humans -[survival, reproduce]

6. Survival needs, instincts, emotions, beliefs, etc.

7. Beliefs - empirical {belief-that} and non-empirical {belief-in}

8. Belief-in - theological, others

9. Theological belief in - Judaism, Christianity, Islam, others

10. Islamic - islam [submission], eeman [faith], inhsaan, etc.

11. Eeman [strict] - specific 6 pillars of eeman - faith [beliefs without proofs]

12. Eeman [loose] - beliefs within Islamic contexts in relation to eeman [strict].
From the above, eeman is merely a piece of a jigsaw puzzle within the whole of reality.
Eeman [strict] 11 is related subset to 'belief' in 6.
Eeman [loose] 12 is also related subset to 'belief' in 6.

Because both the strict and loose term are used within the same set of belief in 6, there is not linguistic and semantic issues as long as we qualify the contexts.

In the Quran Allah used the term eeman in the strict and loose sense. Examples [note there are many];

Strict:
8:2 They only are the (true) believers whose hearts feel fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited unto them they increase their faith, and who trust in their Lord;

Innama almu/minoona allatheena itha thukira Allahu wajilat quloobuhum wa-itha tuliyat AAalayhim ayatuhu zadat-hum eemanan waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona
Increasing one faith is specific, i.e. strict.
This strict sense must involve all the 6 pillars of eeman.

Loose:
2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

Am tureedoona an tas-aloo rasoolakum kama su-ila moosa min qablu waman yatabaddali alkufra bial-eemani faqad dalla sawaa alssabeeli
The above eeman is used in the general sense to differentiate believers and disbelievers, thus loose.
In this case the eeman do not necessary entail the 6 pillars of eeman but perhaps only cover the Shahada and submission.
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Old 04-24-2016, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is one perspective of reconciling "eeman" with "beliefs" within reality.

Where eeman [strict] as belief is within the hierarchy of reality.
1. Reality

2. Universe

3. Our Solar System

4. Earth -Things [living and non-living] and humans

5. Humans -[survival, reproduce]

6. Survival needs, instincts, emotions, beliefs, etc.

7. Beliefs - empirical {belief-that} and non-empirical {belief-in}

8. Belief-in - theological, others

9. Theological belief in - Judaism, Christianity, Islam, others

10. Islamic - islam [submission], eeman [faith], inhsaan, etc.

11. Eeman [strict] - specific 6 pillars of eeman - faith [beliefs without proofs]

12. Eeman [loose] - beliefs within Islamic contexts in relation to eeman [strict].
From the above, eeman is merely a piece of a jigsaw puzzle within the whole of reality.
Eeman [strict] 11 is related subset to 'belief' in 6.
Eeman [loose] 12 is also related subset to 'belief' in 6.

Because both the strict and loose term are used within the same set of belief in 6, there is not linguistic and semantic issues as long as we qualify the contexts.

In the Quran Allah used the term eeman in the strict and loose sense. Examples [note there are many];

Strict:
8:2 They only are the (true) believers whose hearts feel fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited unto them they increase their faith, and who trust in their Lord;

Innama almu/minoona allatheena itha thukira Allahu wajilat quloobuhum wa-itha tuliyat AAalayhim ayatuhu zadat-hum eemanan waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona
Increasing one faith is specific, i.e. strict.
This strict sense must involve all the 6 pillars of eeman.

Loose:
2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

Am tureedoona an tas-aloo rasoolakum kama su-ila moosa min qablu waman yatabaddali alkufra bial-eemani faqad dalla sawaa alssabeeli
The above eeman is used in the general sense to differentiate believers and disbelievers, thus loose.
In this case the eeman do not necessary entail the 6 pillars of eeman but perhaps only cover the Shahada and submission.
Again the problem arises from a translater trying to us a single word for what is essentially a phrase

Quote:
2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

Am tureedoona an tas-aloo rasoolakum kama su-ila moosa min qablu waman yatabaddali alkufra bial-eemani faqad dalla sawaa alssabeeli
The above eeman is used in the general sense to differentiate believers and disbelievers, thus loose.
In this case the eeman do not necessary entail the 6 pillars of eeman but perhaps only cover the Shahada and submission.
bial-eemani is used instead of eeman.

also note the i at the end of Eeman which changes the mening of Eeman to "security" the bial- prefix does considerable changing also.


a single word misses much of the meaning. eemani means security. or possibly past messages

It would be better done as an interpretation instead of as an attempted translation such as:

2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of past messages, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

the word faith is not clear and it could be erroneously taken as meaning faith in Muhammad(saws)

Asad gives a better interpretation and explains in his foot note


Would you, perchance, ask of the Apostle who has been sent unto you what was asked aforetime of Moses? But whoever chooses to deny the [evidence of the] truth, instead of believing in it, [88] has already strayed from the right path. - 2:108 (Asad)
Asad explains his reasoning in his footnote


Note 88 (Quran Ref: 2:108 )

Lit.. "whoever takes a denial of the truth in exchange for belief"-i.e., whoever refuses to accept the internal evidence of the truth of the Qur'anic message and demands, instead, an "objective" proof of its divine origin (Manar I, 416f.).-That which was "asked of Moses aforetime" was the demand of the children of Israel to "see God face to face" (cf. 2:55 ). The expression rendered by me as "the Apostle who has been sent unto you" reads. literally, "your Apostle", and obviously refers to the Prophet Muhammad. whose message supersedes the earlier revelations.(Quran Ref: 2:108 )
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Old 04-24-2016, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Again the problem arises from a translater trying to us a single word for what is essentially a phrase

bial-eemani is used instead of eeman.

also note the i at the end of Eeman which changes the mening of Eeman to "security" the bial- prefix does considerable changing also.


a single word misses much of the meaning. eemani means security. or possibly past messages

It would be better done as an interpretation instead of as an attempted translation such as:

2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of past messages, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

the word faith is not clear and it could be erroneously taken as meaning faith in Muhammad(saws)

Asad gives a better interpretation and explains in his foot note


Would you, perchance, ask of the Apostle who has been sent unto you what was asked aforetime of Moses? But whoever chooses to deny the [evidence of the] truth, instead of believing in it, [88] has already strayed from the right path. - 2:108 (Asad)
Asad explains his reasoning in his footnote


Note 88 (Quran Ref: 2:108 )

Lit.. "whoever takes a denial of the truth in exchange for belief"-i.e., whoever refuses to accept the internal evidence of the truth of the Qur'anic message and demands, instead, an "objective" proof of its divine origin (Manar I, 416f.).-That which was "asked of Moses aforetime" was the demand of the children of Israel to "see God face to face" (cf. 2:55 ). The expression rendered by me as "the Apostle who has been sent unto you" reads. literally, "your Apostle", and obviously refers to the Prophet Muhammad. whose message supersedes the earlier revelations.(Quran Ref: 2:108 )
First that is precisely my point that this eeman is used in the loose sense and not the loose sense.

Whichever way one interpret 2:108 the term "eeman" in bial-eemani [where you said is security] will still be steered back to 'faith' i.e. beliefs without proofs nor justified reasons.

'past messages' of what? definitely of the faith! since the root eeman is present, i.e. the faith of old before Muhammad.

'strayed from the right path' of what? definitely of the faith! since the root eeman is present, i.e. the faith of old before Muhammad in this case with reference to Moses.

Note the later statement in 2:108 has the following model

Whoever did x had done the opposite of x.
thus if x is disbelief then opposite of disbelief which is beliefs, thus faith,
because specifically beliefs without proof is faith.

Whichever way, the opposite of x in this case of 2:108, it will lead to the term 'faith'.
Thus with the presence of 'eeman' in that statement, Pickthall and others who use the term 'faith' is correct in context.

Agree?
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