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Old 04-20-2016, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif and Woodrow LI do not accept Eeman is reconcilable [or correlated] with 'Belief.'

This is ridiculous because if Eeman [strict or loose] is not reconciled to belief [strict or loose], then
there is no 'belief' 'believe' believing nor 'faith' in Islam.
Note faith = beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.

I am certain 'Eeman' [Arabic -Quran] is reconcilable and correlated with 'belief' [English] or in any language.

I will provide my justifications with proper evidence later.

Your views?
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Eeman is a belief, it is not a definition of belief.

You can not use the word Eeman in the context of meaning belief. , Just as you can not use the Catholic belief of Transubstantiation in the context of meaning belief.

Both are examples of belief but neither is a definition of belief nor can be used in a manner similar to the word belief.
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Eeman is a belief, it is not a definition of belief.

You can not use the word Eeman in the context of meaning belief. , Just as you can not use the Catholic belief of Transubstantiation in the context of meaning belief.

Both are examples of belief but neither is a definition of belief nor can be used in a manner similar to the word belief.
Note I just posted this in another thread.

I did not insist "eeman = belief" in English in the absolute sense. If we use that in the absolute sense it will lead to errors and rhetoric.

As I had demonstrated when we state eeman = belief, we must explain and qualify that eeman [strict] must be associated with Islamic elements, i.e. the 6 pillars of Islam.

It would be wrong to state "eeman = belief" period. [i.e. without any explanations and qualifications]

The point is what is underlying "eeman" is fundamentally beliefs, believing and faith. It is the specific Islamic element that made eeman as specific Islamic term and cannot be generalized with other religions. [Unless we use linguistic gymnastics].

I still think we can translate those terms in the Quran that has multiple meanings in various contexts.
However, there should be a note to it regarding what it really meant.
This problem is common with all translations between different language. What is critical is the translators must explain and provide notes where there are multiple meanings to a term.
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif and Woodrow LI do not accept Eeman is reconcilable [or correlated] with 'Belief.'
Why are you imagining this ? Where did I state anything like that?

Your own thinkng is confusing you in such a way that you are thinking of something I never stated.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Why are you imagining this? Where did I state anything like that?
Your own thinkng is confusing you in such a way that you are thinking of something I never stated.
You have been stating and implying that all over the place, e.g.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
When you state "beliefs" = "eeman", you are stating that eeman is beliefs.
You need to do exactly that because you insist that the two are the same thing (beliefs = eeman). You can't do it because eeman is an Arabic word and a precise term.

To show that eeman is in either in loose sense or in strict sense, you need to find Arabic words that show us it is either in loose term or in strict term?. You can do that only by quoting verses from the Qur'an. If you fail to do that, you are making up these senses from yourself.
Here is Woodrow's claim;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
I am trying to help you understand that Eeman does not have the same definition or meaning as the English word belief.
Your argument seems to be based upon the definition of belief not the definition of Eeman.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43763856-post67.html
Note my OP, the critical words are "correlated" and "reconcilable."
I did not insist "eeman" is exactly "belief" [English].
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Old 04-22-2016, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Posted here for relevance.
Original:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Simple Definition of belief

: a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
: a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone

Full Definition of belief

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Belief | Definition of Belief by Merriam-Webster

None of those match the definition of Eeman which is: belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.

It is not the same as definition 2 The Definition of Eeman is not "Something believed"

it is the something that is believed.
The root word for Eeman is Amana, which has quite a few meanings:

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.)
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman
Notice the definition of Amana is not related to beleif. However you may see the relationship to Eeman HINT: It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah.

Needless to say there are very many words that have the root Amana, some not even having any apparant relationship with each other. Such as Ameen(Amen in English) which has little if any relationship to Eeman.

الامانة Amana -as used in MSA translates to English as Honesty.

To use an analogy you might understand.

If you believe we should live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) Then the Golden Rule is your belief, but Golden Rule does not mean belief.

Likewise Eeman is an Islamic Belief, but it does not mean belief.
This statement don't make sense,
Eeman is an Islamic Belief, but it does not mean belief

This is like saying "pasta" is Italian food, but it does not mean food.
Pasta is obviously "food" but it is specifically Italian food.

It is also like say "cockatoo" is an Australian bird but it does not mean 'bird'.
A cockatoo is obviously a bird but it is specifically a bird [parrot] found in Australia.

As with the above "eeman" definitely mean beliefs but it is specifically 'belief' that is Islamic in accordance to the Quran.

Your 'Golden Rule' analogy is not applicable.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-22-2016 at 12:46 AM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 12:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
None of those match the definition of Eeman which is: belief in God (Allah), His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.

It is not the same as definition 2 The Definition of Eeman is not "Something believed"

it [eeman] is the something that is believed.
That something that is believed is not eeman.
It is ridiculous to insist Allah [that which is believed] is eeman.
It is also ridiculous to insist - His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree - are eeman.

Do you still insist eeman is something that is believed, i.e. Allah, His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.
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Old 04-22-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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@ Woodrow and Khalif:

Here is how I would reconcile Islamic "eeman" with generic "belief."

Here is the more detailed meaning of what is belief.

Quote:
1. Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.

2. Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1]

3. In the context of Ancient Greek thought, two related concepts were identified with regards to the concept of belief: pistis and doxa.

4. Simplified, we may say that pistis refers to trust and confidence, while doxa refers to opinion and acceptance. The English word orthodoxy is derived from doxa.

5. Belief's purpose is to guide action and not to indicate truth.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief
In the Quran the word eeman with root amana ا م ن is always referenced to the following elements;
1. Allah,
2. His prophets,
3. revealed books,
4. angels,
5. the Hereafter, and
6. Allah’s divine decree.
Eeman is the positive state of mind a Muslims that reflects a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.)
The root "amana" [sacred trust] is used to ground that state of mind, i.e. that reflects a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
Those somethings that are trusted to be true are the 6 elements listed above.
Eeman is not the 6 elements per-se but rather the state of mind that is generated to have confidence, trust of what is believed is true.

The wiki article differentiated between belief-that and belief-in.
Eeman [strict] belong to the belief-in category that is specific to Islam only.


Quote:
Historically belief-in belonged in the realm of religious thought, belief-that instead belonged to epistemological considerations.[10]

Belief-in

To "believe in" someone or something is a distinct concept from "believing-that."
There are at least these types of belief-in:[11]

Commendatory / Faith - we may make an expression of 'faith' in respect of some performance by an agent X, when without prejudice to the truth value of the factual outcome or even confidence in X otherwise, we expect that specific performance. In particular self-confidence or faith in one's self is this kind of belief.

Existential claim - to claim belief in the existence of an entity or phenomenon in a general way with the implied need to justify its claim to existence. It is often used when the entity is not real, or its existence is in doubt. "He believes in witches and ghosts" or "many children believe in Santa Claus" or "I believe in a deity" are typical examples.[12] The linguistic form is distinct from the assertion of the truth of a proposition since verification is either considered impossible/irrelevant or a counterfactual situation is assumed.


Belief-that


Economical belief
Economic beliefs are beliefs which are reasonably and necessarily contrary to the tenet of rational choice or instrumental rationality.[13]

Studies of the Austrian tradition of the economic thought, in the context of analysis of the influence and subsequent degree of change resulting from existing economic knowledge and belief, has contributed the most to the subsequent holistic collective analysis.[
I suggest you make an attempt to understand this more sophisticate meaning of generic belief, rather than the dictionary one and how it is reconciliable to 'eeman' (strict) [belief related to Islam only]

Woodrow LI: it [eeman] is the something that is believed.
NO!
That something-that-is-believed is not eeman.
It is ridiculous to insist Allah [that which is believed] is eeman.

Eeman is a state of mind of a Muslim resulting from his/her believing in Allah, His prophets, revealed books, angels, the Hereafter, and Allah’s divine decree.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-22-2016 at 01:42 AM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 02:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have been stating and implying that all over the place, e.g.

Note my OP, the critical words are "correlated" and "reconcilable."
I did not insist "eeman" is exactly "belief" [English].
I have not stated anywhere that eeman can be correlated and is reconcilable with belief or beliefs. You, after stating "eeman = beliefs" have now begun to think in terms of reconciling or correlating eeman with belief. Eeman = beliefs is incorrect way of orrelating or reconciling the two. Let me help you a little in correlating or reconciling the precise word "eeman" with "faith" and "belief":

"Belief" (as in disbelief) is not the same as "Belief" that "God is One". The former is related to Eeman but the latter is related to contents of "Belief". The former cannot be turned into plural (there is no plual of "eeman" just as there is no plural of Allah) but the latter can be turned into plural as "beliefs".

In my view, "eeman" is opposite of "kufr". Just as "kufr" is related to disbelieving about Allah, His messengers and His messages, "eeman" is related to believing Allah, His messengers and His messages. Neither "kufr" is verb "disbelieving" nor "eeman" is verb "believing". Instead, "kufr" is noun "disbelief" but not verb "disbelieving" and "eeman" is noun "belief" or "faith" but is neither verb "believing" nor can be plural "beliefs", or "faith" as "religion".

Eeman is translated as "faith" by some translators and "belief" by some. The reason Continuum is confused as to what eeman really is, is due to the fact that (a) it is translated variously and (b) both "faith" and "belief" have double meanings in English. Eeman in Arabic is precise term that does not have double meanings as the English words "faith" and "belief" have double meanings.
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Old 04-22-2016, 02:47 AM
 
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Continuum,

I had posted without reading your last post. I can see that you have come a long way forward in understanding "eeman" but there are still a few creases to be ironed out in your understanding of "eeman".

Keep working at it!
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