U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-22-2016, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Here is a model depicting the Relation between Islam, Eeman and Inhsaan.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_(...aith_and_deeds

Agree with the above relation or disagree?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Comments?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 02:50 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
The problem with you is that you want to learn about Eeman (Iman) from wikipedia rather than from the Qur'an or from Muslims on this board.

You are going to be confused with the English terms, faith and belief, used interchangeably quite often in the articles by different writers. For example, (a) 6 articles of faith, (b) 6 articles of belief, (c) 6 articles of Iman or, as in this article on wikipedia, (d) belief in 6 articles of faith of Islam.

A Muslim is well aware of these articles as aspects of eeman but someone without eeman is going to do nit-picking because of different words of English being used in various articles about eeman. Not only that but even in the Qur'an translayions in English, some translators have trandlated "eemsn" a faith" and others as "belief". Faith would be better than belief but it all depends on the reader as to what the reader understands by "faith" or "belief". In the English translations of the Qur'an, not only "eeman" s translated as "faith" but "deen" as well. It's not a problem to Muslims but poblem to you because of preconceived ideas about the English words "belief", "faith" and "religion".

Another point that is higlighted in the wikipedia articte is that one can't be a true believer unless one proves his believing with actions. How does one prove his believing that there is no God but Allah? Just saying won't be enough; even the hypocites say so. Muslim, on the the hand, is the one who is a true believer (Mu'min) who proves his eeman through actions.

This brings me to the wikipedia article and your question:

A Muslim is a Mu'min who has eeman in everything required of him in the Qur'an, and it includes, amongst other things, doing good to others, have taqwa, be righteous, be vicegerent of Allah on earth, be a good human being. In other words, there is link between ehsan., Islam, eeman and Muslim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
The article is in error with this comment:

Etymology

In Arabic, Iman (إِيمَان ʾīmān), pronounced [ˈʔiː.maːn] means "faith". It is the verbal noun of آمَنَ "to believe (in somehing)."


آمَنَ (amman) does not mean to "believe in something"
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The problem with you is that you want to learn about Eeman (Iman) from wikipedia rather than from the Qur'an or from Muslims on this board.
Your type of thinking is too 'kindergartenish'.

I learned of "eeman" from the Quran itself and I understand eeman [strict] to be related a set of Islamic beliefs, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.
I presented this article from wiki [always read with reservations] [as a convenience] because this model agree with my views.

Quote:
You are going to be confused with the English terms, faith and belief, used interchangeably quite often in the articles by different writers. For example, (a) 6 articles of faith, (b) 6 articles of belief, (c) 6 articles of Iman or, as in this article on wikipedia, (d) belief in 6 articles of faith of Islam.

A Muslim is well aware of these articles as aspects of eeman but someone without eeman is going to do nit-picking because of different words of English being used in various articles about eeman. Not only that but even in the Qur'an translayions in English, some translators have trandlated "eemsn" a faith" and others as "belief". Faith would be better than belief but it all depends on the reader as to what the reader understands by "faith" or "belief". In the English translations of the Qur'an, not only "eeman" s translated as "faith" but "deen" as well. It's not a problem to Muslims but poblem to you because of preconceived ideas about the English words "belief", "faith" and "religion".
One ability of an intelligence is the ability to analyze, identify patterns and present them for others to understand and practice them.

Here is you are mixing up everything and lump them together.
Do you know what is 'word salad'?

Quote:
Word salad is a "confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases",[1] most often used to describe a symptom of a neurological or mental disorder.
The words may or may not be grammatically correct, but are semantically confused to the point that the listener cannot extract any meaning from them. The term is often used in psychiatry as well as in theoretical linguistics to describe a type of grammatical acceptability judgment by native speakers, and in computer programming to describe textual randomization.
At the extreme, word salad is often associated with the schizophrenia.

Universally faith = beliefs without proofs nor justified reason.
Such a definition is applicable to all theistic religions.

Quote:
Another point that is higlighted in the wikipedia articte is that one can't be a true believer unless one proves his believing with actions. How does one prove his believing that there is no God but Allah? Just saying won't be enough; even the hypocites say so. Muslim, on the the hand, is the one who is a true believer (Mu'min) who proves his eeman through actions.
Why not?
It is not proving God exists and no God but Allah?
You are ignorant of this and you insist you are right.
A Muslim expressed himself as a true believer but obeying the commands and other actions in accordance to the Quran of Allah with high conviction.
A true believer will do X or whatever if Allah say so in his Quran.

Quote:
This brings me to the wikipedia article and your question:

A Muslim is a Mu'min who has eeman in everything required of him in the Qur'an, and it includes, amongst other things, doing good to others, have taqwa, be righteous, be vicegerent of Allah on earth, be a good human being. In other words, there is link between ehsan., Islam, eeman and Muslim.
This is word salad.

The OP model issystematic, is logical and in proper order in accordance to the Quran.
Note the critical element here is "systematic." [note System theory as advance knowledge and system thinking is higher thinking].

Quote:
Systems theory or systems science is the interdisciplinary study of systems in general, with the goal of discovering patterns and elucidating principles that can be discerned from, and applied to, all types of systems at all nesting levels in all fields of research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Quote:
You are going to be confused with the English terms, faith and belief, used interchangeably quite often in the articles by different writers. For example, (a) 6 articles of faith, (b) 6 articles of belief, (c) 6 articles of Iman or, as in this article on wikipedia, (d) belief in 6 articles of faith of Islam.

A Muslim is well aware of these articles as aspects of eeman ...
It is not English terms that I am going after.
What I am driving at is human nature and knowledge regardless of the language.
E.g. there is only one generic human digestive system and it can be labelled with different a word by any language. Note the saying "A rose by any name ........ "

You have the false arrogance that whatever is from the Quran is superior over any other generic human knowledge. The fact is Islam is the most inferior in terms of overall generic human knowledge in comparison to other religions. Whatever claimed as Scientific in the Quran is "cheap skate".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The article is in error with this comment:

Etymology

In Arabic, Iman (إِيمَان ʾīmān), pronounced [ˈʔiː.maːn] means "faith". It is the verbal noun of آمَنَ "to believe (in somehing)."


آمَنَ (amman) does not mean to "believe in something"
Then what is آمَنَ according to you?
You may have mistaken it for amman, i.e. peace or trust, etc. ???

Whatever is آمَنَ [in Arabic] the intended meaning of the above wiki article are these;

from:
http://www.altafsir.com/Books/Concor...lime_Quran.pdf

Aamana
(prf. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV)
He believed, had a faith.

Aamanat
(prf. 3rd p. f. sing.)
She believed.

Aamantu
(prf. 1st. P. sing. IV)
I believed.

Aamanuu
(prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They believed.

Aamantum
(prf. 2nd. p.m. plu.)
You believed.

Aamannaa
(prf. 1st. p. plu.)
We believed.


This concordance
http://www.altafsir.com/Books/Concor...lime_Quran.pdf
list all the words list related verses to believe re Amana:

129. {MANA—verb IV perfect—to believe, to be secure
2:8 We believed in God and in the Last Day
2:9 They seek to trick God and those who believed
2:13 Believe as humanity believed, they said
2:14 they said: We believed, and when they went
2:14 when they met those who believed 3:16 those who say: Our Lord! Truly we believed
2:25 give good tidings to those who believed and
2:26 for those who believed, then they know that it
....... others


'Faith' is beliefs without proofs nor justified reason resulting from believing.
It is not wrong to state 'faith' are false beliefs of reality.

Therefore the intended meaning of آمَنَ is believe in something.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-25-2016, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then what is آمَنَ according to you?
You may have mistaken it for amman, i.e. peace or trust, etc. ???

Whatever is آمَنَ [in Arabic] the intended meaning of the above wiki article are these;

from:
http://www.altafsir.com/Books/Concor...lime_Quran.pdf

Aamana
(prf. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV)
He believed, had a faith.

Aamanat
(prf. 3rd p. f. sing.)
She believed.

Aamantu
(prf. 1st. P. sing. IV)
I believed.

Aamanuu
(prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They believed.

Aamantum
(prf. 2nd. p.m. plu.)
You believed.

Aamannaa
(prf. 1st. p. plu.)
We believed.


This concordance
http://www.altafsir.com/Books/Concor...lime_Quran.pdf
list all the words list related verses to believe re Amana:

129. {MANA—verb IV perfect—to believe, to be secure
2:8 We believed in God and in the Last Day
2:9 They seek to trick God and those who believed
2:13 Believe as humanity believed, they said
2:14 they said: We believed, and when they went
2:14 when they met those who believed 3:16 those who say: Our Lord! Truly we believed
2:25 give good tidings to those who believed and
2:26 for those who believed, then they know that it
....... others


'Faith' is beliefs without proofs nor justified reason resulting from believing.
It is not wrong to state 'faith' are false beliefs of reality.

Therefore the intended meaning of آمَنَ is believe in something.

Amman آمَنَ means: Security

The Word you are quoting آمَنَ is Amman

Here is an enlarged screen shot of what you quoted


__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2016, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
If that word meant security, then it is not accurate.
As I mentioned the intended meaning is 'to believe' i.e. aaman as in

Aamana
(prf. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV)
He believed, had a faith.

Aamanat
(prf. 3rd p. f. sing.)
She believed.

Aamantu
(prf. 1st. P. sing. IV)
I believed.

Aamanuu
(prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.)
They believed.

Aamantum
(prf. 2nd. p.m. plu.)
You believed.

Aamannaa
(prf. 1st. p. plu.)
We believed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2016, 03:57 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Woodrow is correct. Read 5:91, 3:154, 6:82, 24:55.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top