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Old 05-15-2016, 11:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I beg your pardon. Prayer at Noon? We are forbidden to have salah when the Sun is directly overhead.
I know these details and is off-topic
you'll learn In mosques
Incitement to fight the infidels and abetting the enemies of God
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Old 05-15-2016, 11:38 PM
 
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In the church child learns the word of Christ
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you
Education important pillar in the life of man
Al-Fatihah:
Way, who bestowed on them is wrath not lost (7)
Says not wrath upon them neither astray ie: Deliver us from by wrath, and by misguided, wrath, and who are Jews, and Aldalon were: Christians, and called Jews resented them; because they disobeyed insight; them aware of and did not act upon it, and the Christians are lost; because they are scrambling at work, working on ignorance and astray
This is the Muslim prayer in the mosque
They despised the Jews and the Christians of the lost
These verses and teach the Koran
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
In the church child learns the word of Christ
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you
Education important pillar in the life of man
Al-Fatihah:
Way, who bestowed on them is wrath not lost (7)
Says not wrath upon them neither astray ie: Deliver us from by wrath, and by misguided, wrath, and who are Jews, and Aldalon were: Christians, and called Jews resented them; because they disobeyed insight; them aware of and did not act upon it, and the Christians are lost; because they are scrambling at work, working on ignorance and astray
This is the Muslim prayer in the mosque
They despised the Jews and the Christians of the lost
These verses and teach the Koran
Read al-Fatiha as it is written, not the commentaries some translators add to it.


Quote:
Al-Fatiha (The Opening) - 1:1

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. - 1:1 (Picktall)
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, - 1:2 (Picktall)
The Beneficent, the Merciful: - 1:3 (Picktall)
Owner of the Day of Judgment, - 1:4 (Picktall)
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help. - 1:5 (Picktall)
Show us the straight path, - 1:6 (Picktall)
The path of those whom Thou hast favored; Not of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. - 1:7 (Picktall)
While it is very probable Christians, Jews and Sabeeans are among those who have gone astray, this is not an anti-Jewish nor anti-Christian statement. It is a fact that many who have had the message given to them have failed to follow it. Including some who call them self Muslims. The Message has been given to all people. Prophets had been sent to all Nations. but we humans have a long history of failing to abide by it and go astray. The Qur'an is our last chance to get it right and not mess it up like it has always been messed up in the past.

I do not see al-Fathah as teaching me to hate Christians, Jews or anyone else. I see it as a personal reminder for me not to stray.

I have been in more than 1 or 2 Mosques and do often serve as Imam. I have never once used the Mosque to teach or preach not have I seen any other Imam do so. I am aware that there are Imams that Misuse the Mosque and do teach and preach, but have never been in one where the Imam does such. I personally never did so when I had my own Mosque. Perhaps one day I will be financially able to have a Mosque again Insha Allah. I rather liked being an Imam and felt I was serving my Brothers and Sisters. but, current finances prevent me from doing so.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Read al-Fatiha as it is written, not the commentaries some translators add to it.

While it is very probable Christians, Jews and Sabeeans are among those who have gone astray, this is not an anti-Jewish nor anti-Christian statement. It is a fact that many who have had the message given to them have failed to follow it. Including some who call them self Muslims. The Message has been given to all people. Prophets had been sent to all Nations. but we humans have a long history of failing to abide by it and go astray. The Qur'an is our last chance to get it right and not mess it up like it has always been messed up in the past.

I do not see al-Fathah as teaching me to hate Christians, Jews or anyone else. I see it as a personal reminder for me not to stray.

I have been in more than 1 or 2 Mosques and do often serve as Imam. I have never once used the Mosque to teach or preach not have I seen any other Imam do so. I am aware that there are Imams that Misuse the Mosque and do teach and preach, but have never been in one where the Imam does such. I personally never did so when I had my own Mosque. Perhaps one day I will be financially able to have a Mosque again Insha Allah. I rather liked being an Imam and felt I was serving my Brothers and Sisters. but, current finances prevent me from doing so.
Quote:
Al-Fatiha (The Opening) - 1:1
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. - 1:1 (Picktall)
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, - 1:2 (Picktall)
The Beneficent, the Merciful: - 1:3 (Picktall)
Owner of the Day of Judgment, - 1:4 (Picktall)
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help. - 1:5 (Picktall)
Show us the straight path, - 1:6 (Picktall)
The path of those whom Thou hast favored; Not of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. - 1:7 (Picktall)
Verse 1:7 has subtle and subliminal elements of hate and danger/threat to Muslims.

those who earn Thine anger
If a group has incurred Allah's anger, it is implied this group must really be terrible and hated by Allah for doing something wrong and thus a threat to Muslims.

those who go astray
If Allah identified a group as having gone astray, again this group must have done something terrible wrong and thus a danger and threat to Muslims.

As Muslims read the Quran thoroughly they will be able to know those who incurred Allah's anger refer to the Jews and those who had gone astray are the Christians.

This generate a sense of us versus them, i.e. them [evil, be wary of, beware of, etc.].
Such negative elements are very common in practice with groups of humans.
If the leader [very charismatic and influential] condemned another group negatively, some of the followers will develop very anti and antagonistic views of the condemned group.
The negative influence would be greater if an all powerful Allah who hold a Muslim's life in his hand condemn another group, i.e. the Jews and Christians as in 1:17 [subtle] and explicit in various verses.

While you personally and consciously is not effected by 1:7 and other condemning verses in the Quran, you cannot under estimate your subconscious mind and the 20% of Muslims who are prone to evil and negativities.

The fact that 1:7 is repeated many times a day and everyday in the mind of the 20% who are vulnerable to subliminal negative message, it will definitely have an impact on the impulses and behavior of the evil prone.
Such subliminal 1:7 and other explicit messages in the Quran in reality has been brainwashed and imbued into the minds of the 20% of evil prone Muslims and in in reality has manifested in real killings of Jews and Christians.

Thus the mere existence of 1:7 and other explicit negative messages in the Quran against Jews, Christians and non-Muslims has influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims for merely not believing in Allah and his messenger.

It was mistake to include 1:7 in chapter 1 especially in a sensitive holy book.
Allah should have just stopped at 1:6, i.e. Show us the straight path.
If 1:7 is need then state something like 'Endow us with strength to be steadfast' rather than including potentially evil laden elements that generate a sense of 'us versus them'.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-16-2016 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 05-16-2016, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Verse 1:7 has subtle and subliminal elements of hate and danger/threat to Muslims.

those who earn Thine anger
If a group has incurred Allah's anger, it is implied this group must really be terrible and hated by Allah for doing something wrong and thus a threat to Muslims.

those who go astray
If Allah identified a group as having gone astray, again this group must have done something terrible wrong and thus a danger and threat to Muslims.

As Muslims read the Quran thoroughly they will be able to know those who incurred Allah's anger refer to the Jews and those who had gone astray are the Christians.

This generate a sense of us versus them, i.e. them [evil, be wary of, beware of, etc.].
Such negative elements are very common in practice with groups of humans.
If the leader [very charismatic and influential] condemned another group negatively, some of the followers will develop very anti and antagonistic views of the condemned group.
The negative influence would be greater if an all powerful Allah who hold a Muslim's life in his hand condemn another group, i.e. the Jews and Christians as in 1:17 [subtle] and explicit in various verses.

While you personally and consciously is not effected by 1:7 and other condemning verses in the Quran, you cannot under estimate your subconscious mind and the 20% of Muslims who are prone to evil and negativities.

The fact that 1:7 is repeated many times a day and everyday in the mind of the 20% who are vulnerable to subliminal negative message, it will definitely have an impact on the impulses and behavior of the evil prone.
Such subliminal 1:7 and other explicit messages in the Quran in reality has been brainwashed and imbued into the minds of the 20% of evil prone Muslims and in in reality has manifested in real killings of Jews and Christians.

Thus the mere existence of 1:7 and other explicit negative messages in the Quran against Jews, Christians and non-Muslims has influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims for merely not believing in Allah and his messenger.

It was mistake to include 1:7 in chapter 1 especially in a sensitive holy book.
Allah should have just stopped at 1:6, i.e. Show us the straight path.
If 1:7 is need then state something like 'Endow us with strength to be steadfast' rather than including potentially evil laden elements that generate a sense of 'us versus them'.
I believe if you ask Muslims you will find the vast majority of us take Ayyat 7 personal and see it as a warning that even though we have the message it is still possible for us to go astray. I am quite certain you would find that most Wahhabi, Salafi and other radicals would consider me to be among those who have gone astray. ISIS would probably see me as further astray than any Christian or Jew.
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Old 05-16-2016, 08:39 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Verse 1:7 has subtle and subliminal elements of hate and danger/threat to Muslims.

those who earn Thine anger
If a group has incurred Allah's anger, it is implied this group must really be terrible and hated by Allah for doing something wrong and thus a threat to Muslims.

those who go astray
If Allah identified a group as having gone astray, again this group must have done something terrible wrong and thus a danger and threat to Muslims.

As Muslims read the Quran thoroughly they will be able to know those who incurred Allah's anger refer to the Jews and those who had gone astray are the Christians.

This generate a sense of us versus them, i.e. them [evil, be wary of, beware of, etc.].
Such negative elements are very common in practice with groups of humans.
If the leader [very charismatic and influential] condemned another group negatively, some of the followers will develop very anti and antagonistic views of the condemned group.
The negative influence would be greater if an all powerful Allah who hold a Muslim's life in his hand condemn another group, i.e. the Jews and Christians as in 1:17 [subtle] and explicit in various verses.

While you personally and consciously is not effected by 1:7 and other condemning verses in the Quran, you cannot under estimate your subconscious mind and the 20% of Muslims who are prone to evil and negativities.

The fact that 1:7 is repeated many times a day and everyday in the mind of the 20% who are vulnerable to subliminal negative message, it will definitely have an impact on the impulses and behavior of the evil prone.
Such subliminal 1:7 and other explicit messages in the Quran in reality has been brainwashed and imbued into the minds of the 20% of evil prone Muslims and in in reality has manifested in real killings of Jews and Christians.

Thus the mere existence of 1:7 and other explicit negative messages in the Quran against Jews, Christians and non-Muslims has influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims for merely not believing in Allah and his messenger.

It was mistake to include 1:7 in chapter 1 especially in a sensitive holy book.
Allah should have just stopped at 1:6, i.e. Show us the straight path.
If 1:7 is need then state something like 'Endow us with strength to be steadfast' rather than including potentially evil laden elements that generate a sense of 'us versus them'.
In all the prayers of the five daily prayers
Muslims recite this verse
Christians deceived
And Jews despised them
This redundancy makes the subconscious mind works automatically in the hatred of those
But the conscious mind for a Muslim act to rein in the mind and works on filtering actions and behavior
If it was in a place where Muslims are a minority
Trying to curb the impact of his behavior on this verse
If in a country with a Muslim majority, he's working on the launch and used
This is very clear historically and in the present era
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:05 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Read al-Fatiha as it is written, not the commentaries some translators add to it.




While it is very probable Christians, Jews and Sabeeans are among those who have gone astray, this is not an anti-Jewish nor anti-Christian statement. It is a fact that many who have had the message given to them have failed to follow it. Including some who call them self Muslims. The Message has been given to all people. Prophets had been sent to all Nations. but we humans have a long history of failing to abide by it and go astray. The Qur'an is our last chance to get it right and not mess it up like it has always been messed up in the past.

I do not see al-Fathah as teaching me to hate Christians, Jews or anyone else. I see it as a personal reminder for me not to stray.

I have been in more than 1 or 2 Mosques and do often serve as Imam. I have never once used the Mosque to teach or preach not have I seen any other Imam do so. I am aware that there are Imams that Misuse the Mosque and do teach and preach, but have never been in one where the Imam does such. I personally never did so when I had my own Mosque. Perhaps one day I will be financially able to have a Mosque again Insha Allah. I rather liked being an Imam and felt I was serving my Brothers and Sisters. but, current finances prevent me from doing so.
This verse is from the Book of Allah
You do not have the right to be interpreted according to personal desires
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
This verse is from the Book of Allah
You do not have the right to be interpreted according to personal desires
I am not interpreting. I am repeating what it actually says without the interpretations of some translators. What right do they have to say ayyat 7 refers to Christians and Jews when neither is mentioned?
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Old 05-16-2016, 08:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not interpreting. I am repeating what it actually says without the interpretations of some translators. What right do they have to say ayyat 7 refers to Christians and Jews when neither is mentioned?
If we read the Quran as a whole and follow abrogation as it applies to the Quran, we can find many verses that attack Christians and Jews. Same with the ahadith. So, you have to look at the BIGGER CONTEXT, not just focus on one verse that does not list the names of "those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray."

For example:

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?" Quran 3:98

Now you will likely claim that 'people of the scripture' doesn't mean Christians and Jews. But you will be wrong if you say this.

Who are the People of the Scripture | IslamToday - English

Let's look at more verses from the quran.

98:6
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

3:99
Say, "O People of the Scripture, why do you avert from the way of Allah those who believe, seeking to make it [seem] deviant, while you are witnesses [to the truth]? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."

2:113
The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

2:120
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

3:69
A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

4:46
Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: "We hear your word (O Muhammad SAW ) and disobey," and "Hear and let you (O Muhammad SAW) hear nothing." And Ra'ina with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said: "We hear and obey", and "Do make us understand," it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except a few.

4:160
For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many [people],

5:64
And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained." Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters.

And so much more. Read the dratted Quran.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:25 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not interpreting. I am repeating what it actually says without the interpretations of some translators. What right do they have to say ayyat 7 refers to Christians and Jews when neither is mentioned?
Offer you these verses from the Koran where wrath and lost words
And see what these imams said that the Jews despised them, and Christians misguided, Advanced talking, and he says in his speech with the children of Israel in Sura: (Bisma bought by themselves to make amends what Allah has revealed a prostitute that God come down from His bounty to whom He will of His slaves Fbaa angrily to the anger and the disbelievers a humiliating torment) [Al-Baqarah: 90],
and he said in the table Say: Are Onbikm humans so Msoubh God from the curse of God and the wrath of it and make them apes and pigs and Abdul Juggernaut those evil place and more astray from the Straight path) [table: 60],
he says: (cursed the unbelievers of the Children of Israel on the tongue of David and Jesus son of Mary, so as disobeyed and they were attacking were not Atnahon is evil for evil they have done what they were doing) [table: 78.79].
And I wish you could see the color red
"Way, who bestowed on them" to be guided and renames who relates to him. "But wrath" They are the Jews, "not" and "misguided" They are Christians and joke allowance benefit that converts are not Jews nor Christians, and God knows what is right and to the reference and MAB and prayed God to the prophet Muhammad and his family and him recognition of a lot
August is not wrath, and who astray

4205 Narrated Abdullah bin Yousef told us the owner of the so-called Abu Saleh Abu Huraira may Allah be pleased with him that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said if the Imam is not wrath, and who does not err said, say Amen it agreed saying the words of the angels forgiven his sins






Footnote: 1
Saying: (the door is not wrath, and who lost) the Arab people, "not" excessive, he said the meaning of the concept of exile is to confirm, lest errant fancy sympathy to those who bestowed. It was not the sense is, and is supported by reading age "is wrath and misguided" mentioned Abu Obeid Saeed Bin Mansour attribution correctly, and also to confirm and narrated by Ahmad and Ibn of modern Adi bin Hatim that the Prophet - peace be upon him - said: wrath of the Jews, nor misguided Christians reported so brief, which is when Tirmidhi in a long conversation. And narrated by Ibn Mrdoih attribution Hassan Abu Dhar, and directed by Ahmed by Abdullah bin brother told him of hearing the Prophet - peace be upon him - him and said Ibn Abi Hatim: I do not know between the commentators in that difference, Suhaili said, and he saw that the verse Jews in Fbaa angrily to anger at Christians had strayed by Odiloa much.

Abu Huraira in Imam approval in insurance, has been explained above in the character of prayer, and narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi narrated from Wael bin [Y: 10] Stone said: I heard the Prophet - peace be upon him - he read not wrath upon them neither astray, he said: Amen, laying out his voice narrated by Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah him from Abu Huraira.
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