U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Does the Quran Invoke the "Us versus Them" Impulse?
Agree 4 57.14%
Disagree 2 28.57%
None of the above 1 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-26-2016, 02:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The two you listed above are the few rare ones and then again they are not stated in the absolute sense.
Note in 60:4i Allah stated;
60:4 [part] ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels] . And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility and hate for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah. ...
That was a cunning trick to take a small part of a verse about Abraham, his followers and descendats who later became Jews, to show here that it is Muslims of the Qur'an saying so. This is what the infidels are known for doing against Muslims.

Quote:
5:8 is one of those rare ones but note 5:10
5:10. And they [infidels] who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such [infidels] are rightful owners of hell.
There are hundreds of verses where non-Muslims are blasted with the worst kind of condemnation and torture in the Islamic Hell.
It is not Islamic hell but infidels' hell which is not in this world. In this world, 5:8 applies according to the Qur'an. This is not us v them but it is us and them altogether until infidels declare war on Muslims because of their religion. Declaring war on Muslims is us v Muslims from infidels.

Quote:
The NT also rely on the "us versus them" to a large degree but then the overriding maxim from the NT is 'Love Them' even if they [them] are your enemies.
Christian Bush and Christian Blair were loving their enemies when waging war on Muslims in Iraq. Bush had declared it a crusade guided by God. Some love thy enemies from the NT I suppose!

Quote:
Note I listed 2:1-29 and you will note the disbelievers are identified as "them" purely on the basis they do not believe Allah and his messenger and not because of war, etc.
In the context of the whole Qur'an, it is because of the war against Muslims that began immediately they found out that Musims had a different religion. As there is no compulsion in religion, such "them" was not from Muslims but from the infidels. The rest is no love from Allah in exchange for no love from the unbelievers for Allah.

Quote:
There are many other verses where non-Muslims are segregated as "them" from "us -Muslims" purely because those "them" do not believe in Allah and Muhammad.
That would be so only if you are blind to 60:8-9 and 5:8.

Quote:
2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
The non-Muslims are disbelievers [kuffar - them] for not believing in Allah and the messenger.
Which scriptures were in possession of the unbelievers? You are just picking verses at random without knowing the conext of the verses and making fool of yourself in this argument.

Quote:
3:32 Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
Love is a two way thing. It can't work one way only. That is what is meant by this verse. You see in it only hate from Allah for not loving those who do not love (and believe) Allah. Why should Allah love them when they refused to love Him?

Quote:
I suggest you read the Quran again [at least 50 times] and note my point re "us versus them".
I suggest you read the Qur'an with open mind rather than with closed mind.

Quote:
The war related verses are not many when compared to non-Muslims being condemned with contempt for merely disbelieving Allah and his messenger.
You read the verses with closed mind. Every verse against unbelievers is because of their war against Muslims and Islam or for their hate against Allah. That is the context of the Qur'an. The fight back is due to fight in the first place. The hate against unbelievers from Allah is due to the unbelievers' hate against Allah. In other words, when the unbelievers reject Allah, Allah rejects them. I see this as justice in the Qur'an. This is why I say the Qur'an is full of justice laden verses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-26-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That was a cunning trick to take a small part of a verse about Abraham, his followers and descendants who later became Jews, to show here that it is Muslims of the Qur'an saying so. This is what the infidels are known for doing against Muslims.
The point is you want to show that the Quran is a goody-two-shoes with those few rare exceptions.

What I am trying to point out is the Quran is not consistent at all wherein the prior verse 60:4 show Allah is not friendly at all in the worst manner.
This 60:4 is not merely a small part but one of the many thousands verse that Allah distinctively segregated the non-Muslims [them] for condemnation collectively.

Quote:
It is not Islamic hell but infidels' hell which is not in this world. In this world, 5:8 applies according to the Qur'an. This is not us v them but it is us and them altogether until infidels declare war on Muslims because of their religion. Declaring war on Muslims is us v Muslims from infidels.
You are just playing with words and ignoring the substance of the message. In this case it is hell in the Islamic perspective rather than hell in Christianity or other religions.
The point is 'us and them' is the same as dividing "us" from "them" which in the loose sense is 'us [paradise] versus them [torture in hell]'.

Quote:
Christian Bush and Christian Blair were loving their enemies when waging war on Muslims in Iraq. Bush had declared it a crusade guided by God. Some love thy enemies from the NT I suppose!
This is bullsh:t and nonsense.
Bush and Blair are Christians on a personal basis but they are not leaders of a Christian Nations nor they are leading as Christians per se. Bush [even though he was the president] may have stated it was a crusade guided by God, but that is his personal views and not that of the country because that was not approved by their parliament.
Bush and Blair are driven by their respective political constitution which is not based on the doctrines of the Bible. I am sure there were Muslims and other non-Christians who voted for Bush and Blair respectively.
When Bush invaded Iraq, Tariq Aziz a Christian was the right hand man of Saddam Hussein. There were many Christian in Iraq then, thus the US and UK were not waging war on Muslims but waging on the political ideology then.

Your views above are a very serious error.

Quote:
In the context of the whole Qur'an, it is because of the war against Muslims that began immediately they found out that Muslims had a different religion. As there is no compulsion in religion, such "them" was not from Muslims but from the infidels. The rest is no love from Allah in exchange for no love from the unbelievers for Allah.
The verses in the Quran related to war is very critical but their number are small relative to the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
In the context of the whole Quran, the non-Muslims are identified and segregated from Muslims purely on the basis they do not believe Allah and his messenger.

Chapter 96
1. Read! In the name of thy Lord who createth,
2. Createth man from a clot.
3. Read! And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
4. Who teacheth by the pen,
5. Teacheth man THAT which he knew not.
6. Nay, but verily man is rebellious

If chapter 96 if the first chapter Chronologically, 96:6 singled out the disbelievers who were rebellious.

This initial differentiation then follow throughout the other 113 chapters with different intensity of condemnation.
It is this initial unilateral condemnations by Allah [rather Muhammad] that provoked the non-Muslims then to retaliate after many warnings.

Quote:
That would be so only if you are blind to 60:8-9 and 5:8.
Note I have identified 3,400 verses where non-Muslims are identified and segregated then condemned collectively in the worst manner.
There are only a few verses where Allah is not angry with the non-Muslims, most likely in less than 10 verses.
Therefore with 10+- verses [neutral and positive] compare to 3,400 [negative] verses in the Quran, it is obvious the Quran is had rely on the 'us versus them' impulse to segregate the non-Muslim [evil] from the Muslims [good].

Quote:
Which scriptures were in possession of the unbelievers? You are just picking verses at random without knowing the context of the verses and making fool of yourself in this argument.
You are kicking your own back without understanding the context of my answers.
Note the OP is "Does the Quran Invoke the "Us versus Them" Impulse?"
I had picked that verse as a sample to support the above point.
It is obvious 2:89 identify the existence of disbelievers which is separated from believers.
What is wrong with that?

Quote:
Love is a two way thing. It can't work one way only. That is what is meant by this verse. You see in it only hate from Allah for not loving those who do not love (and believe) Allah. Why should Allah love them when they refused to love Him?
A supposedly God is all powerful. It is very immature of God to be vengeful and retaliatory.
A more mature God, e.g. the one in the NT will exhort believers to love the enemies unconditionally.

Quote:
I suggest you read the Qur'an with open mind rather than with closed mind.
I am certain a Muslim MUST read the Quran with a closed mind and be bias otherwise his faith will not work.
I have not psychological biasness with the Quran and thus read the Quran as objectively as possible with a high degree of intellectual credibility.
Show me where have I been wrong in interpreting the Quran objectively. [if I am wrong, it is often an omission or oversight].

Quote:
You read the verses with closed mind. Every verse against unbelievers is because of their war against Muslims and Islam or for their hate against Allah. That is the context of the Qur'an. The fight back is due to fight in the first place. The hate against unbelievers from Allah is due to the unbelievers' hate against Allah. In other words, when the unbelievers reject Allah, Allah rejects them. I see this as justice in the Qur'an. This is why I say the Qur'an is full of justice laden verses.
Note my counter above with reference to 96:6 [Chapter 96 =1st chronologically ] where Allah unilaterally identified disbelievers purely because the do not believe in Allah and his messengers.

Disbelievers hate against Allah?? What kind of nonsense is this?
All over the Quran there is the glaring hatred of Allah against the disbelievers purely because the disbelievers do not believe in Allah and his messengers. The disbelievers do not hate Allah [all powerful God] but merely do not believe in that "Allah" as conveyed by Muhammad.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2016, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Thank you sir for correctly identifying the actual intent behind OP.
Btw, I have never bashed any Muslims for their believing in Islam in this forum or any where else. All Muslims are basically human beings like every one else and me.
If you can prove my purpose here is to merely bashed Muslims personally for their beliefs, then I will cut of any of my limbs your propose.
If you are sensitive to objective criticism, i.e. experience sufferings, that is a personal psychological problem you must resolve. I would recommend you take a look at [btw not convert to] Buddhism which focus on how to deal with sufferings of such kind.

I believe religion is a critical necessity for the majority of mankind at present and they should continue to practice the religion and faith. To take away religions from the majority AT PRESENT would invite personal psychological disaster for many.

What I have been doing is criticizing Islam-in-part for its contribution to the terrible evils and violence around the world committed by SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendency where they are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran [in part, not whole].

Because the terrible evils and violence are so real, glaring and is a threat to humanity, why should criticizing Islam-in-part [not wholly] on its role in influencing those violence, be a crime.

As long as the terrible evils and violence continue to emanate from a part of Islam [not Muslims] and that part is a threat to humanity, we should continue to be critical of Islam and make an attempt to identify its ultimate root causes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2016, 04:02 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is you want to show that the Quran is a goody-two-shoes with those few rare exceptions.
And you want to ignore a part of the Qur'an that does not suit your intent.

Quote:
What I am trying to point out is the Quran is not consistent at all wherein the prior verse 60:4 show Allah is not friendly at all in the worst manner.
Why isn't Allah friendly with the previously strong believers who were beloved people of Allah, chosen above all other nations?

Quote:
This 60:4 is not merely a small part but one of the many thousands verse that Allah distinctively segregated the non-Muslims [them] for condemnation collectively.
You are completely wrong when adding "collectively". You completely ignore here 60:8 and 60:9. The context of the passage is 60:1-9. 60:4 on its own is out of context. Where is your objectivity?

Quote:
You are just playing with words and ignoring the substance of the message. In this case it is hell in the Islamic perspective rather than hell in Christianity or other religions.
Nonsense!

Mathhew 5:22, 13:42, 13:50, 18:8-9, 25:41.

Quote:
The point is 'us and them' is the same as dividing "us" from "them" which in the loose sense is 'us [paradise] versus them [torture in hell]'.
"Them" should not be nasty then, and wage war against the Muslims for their religion, should they? Such "them" are not "them" in 60:8-9.

Quote:
This is bullsh:t and nonsense.
Bush and Blair are Christians on a personal basis but they are not leaders of a Christian Nations nor they are leading as Christians per se. Bush [even though he was the president] may have stated it was a crusade guided by God, but that is his personal views and not that of the country because that was not approved by their parliament.
Nor were the views of Usama bin Laden views of a country or of any Muslim parliament. All three had one thing in common, they used their religion in their war against a Muslim country. One called it "jihad" and the other called it "crusade".

Quote:
Bush and Blair are driven by their respective political constitution which is not based on the doctrines of the Bible. I am sure there were Muslims and other non-Christians who voted for Bush and Blair respectively.
Muslims would not have voted for them if they had known that they would go and attack Iraq using the word crusade and then give reason of WMDs which was a lie.

Quote:
When Bush invaded Iraq, Tariq Aziz a Christian was the right hand man of Saddam Hussein. There were many Christian in Iraq then, thus the US and UK were not waging war on Muslims but waging on the political ideology then.
US and UK had supported the "political ideology" when such ideology was against another Muslim country (Iran). But this poliical ideolology became owners of WMDs when supply of oil from there was threatened. This gave birth to another crusade from Bush.

Quote:
The verses in the Quran related to war is very critical but their number are small relative to the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
Did you expect mention of war against Muslims to be stated in every verse against the kuffar?

Quote:
In the context of the whole Quran, the non-Muslims are identified and segregated from Muslims purely on the basis they do not believe Allah and his messenger.
Another nonsense born in ignorance about the context of the whole Qur'an. The context of the whole Qur'an identifies and segregates unbelievers who had waged war against the Muslims and unbelievers who had not waged war against the Muslims. And you are ignoring this most important factor in the context of the Qur'an. Your foolish factor is not relevant if those unbelievers who did not wage war on Muslims are not seen in the bad light in the Qur'an (as in 60:8-9)
.
Quote:
Chapter 96
1. Read! In the name of thy Lord who createth,
2. Createth man from a clot.
3. Read! And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
4. Who teacheth by the pen,
5. Teacheth man THAT which he knew not.
6. Nay, but verily man is rebellious

If chapter 96 if the first chapter Chronologically, 96:6 singled out the disbelievers who were rebellious.
Your ignorance about the chronological order is self-evident here. The whole of the chapter 96 is not chronologically first chapter but only the first 5 verses. Verse 6 onwards were revealed much later, when Abu Jahl had opposed the Qur'an and the messenger. The mention of "man" (insan) in 96:6 and onwards is this one "man", and not all unbelieving "men" (an-nas) anywhere in this whole chapter.

Another blunder in understanding the Qur'an by you, Continuum, in your zeal to portray the Qur'an in bad light! Many have failed to do so in the past and you will be another one to bite the dust before you can change anything about the Qur'an.

Quote:
This initial differentiation then follow throughout the other 113 chapters with different intensity of condemnation.
It is this initial unilateral condemnations by Allah [rather Muhammad] that provoked the non-Muslims then to retaliate after many warnings.
When you begin with a false premise, your conclusion is bound to be false.

Quote:
Note I have identified 3,400 verses where non-Muslims are identified and segregated then condemned collectively in the worst manner.
"Collectively" reveals your ignorance about the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, it is "selectively" (those had waged war on Muslims because of their religion Islam).

Quote:
There are only a few verses where Allah is not angry with the non-Muslims, most likely in less than 10 verses.
Therefore with 10+- verses [neutral and positive] compare to 3,400 [negative] verses in the Quran, it is obvious the Quran is had rely on the 'us versus them' impulse to segregate the non-Muslim [evil] from the Muslims [good].
Then you can't say "collectively". You can't ignore those unbelievers in 60:8-9.

Quote:
You are kicking your own back without understanding the context of my answers.
Note the OP is "Does the Quran Invoke the "Us versus Them" Impulse?"
I had picked that verse as a sample to support the above point.
It is obvious 2:89 identify the existence of disbelievers which is separated from believers.
What is wrong with that?
2:89 identifies previously believers but now enemies of the believers in the Qur'an. You do not understand the context in which such previously believers became disbelievers. They had even sided with unbelievers who were waging war against Muslims. You understand nothing about that.

Quote:
A supposedly God is all powerful. It is very immature of God to be vengeful and retaliatory.
A more mature God, e.g. the one in the NT will exhort believers to love the enemies unconditionally.
It is an immature mind that thinks that Allah should always be polishing shoes of rebellious men no matter what they do.

Quote:
I am certain a Muslim MUST read the Quran with a closed mind and be bias otherwise his faith will not work.
And you? No bias? Could you please be honest?

Quote:
I have not psychological biasness with the Quran and thus read the Quran as objectively as possible with a high degree of intellectual credibility.
Your credibility and objectivity about the Qur'an is in tatters the moment you ignored 60:8-9 when beginning this thread. I have highlighted your shortcomings and ignorance about the Qur'an.

Quote:
Show me where have I been wrong in interpreting the Quran objectively. [if I am wrong, it is often an omission or oversight].
I have done just that in this post. Admit your ignoranc!

Quote:
Note my counter above with reference to 96:6 [Chapter 96 =1st chronologically ] where Allah unilaterally identified disbelievers purely because the do not believe in Allah and his messengers.
You have done nothing of the sort! I have identified your ignorance about this chapter. Only the first 5 verses were revealed first on the Mountain of Light.

Quote:
Disbelievers hate against Allah?? What kind of nonsense is this?
All over the Quran there is the glaring hatred of Allah against the disbelievers purely because the disbelievers do not believe in Allah and his messengers. The disbelievers do not hate Allah [all powerful God] but merely do not believe in that "Allah" as conveyed by Muhammad.
They not only do not believe in the Qur'an but hate what Allah has conveyed through Muhammad. Hating the message and the messenger is hating the One who sent the message (47:26, 3:118).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And you want to ignore a part of the Qur'an that does not suit your intent.
I have not ignore whatever on a bias basis.
I have read the Quran more than 50 times and done extensive analysis and I am very aware of the contents of my point.
I am not ignoring the point you made with those verses but they are merely a drop in the ocean when compared to the 3,400 verses that identify the non-Muslims for condemnations. I have done the analysis and thus is giving an objective presentations.

Example:
If a husband beat the wife 350/365 days a year and is very kind to the wife for 15/365 days, what kind of husband is that? According to you, that would be the kindest husband.

Quote:
Why isn't Allah friendly with the previously strong believers who were beloved people of Allah, chosen above all other nations?
You missed my point.
What I am trying to say is Allah is not consistent because Allah presented mixed message within 5 verses in the same chapter. In 60:4 it is terrible hostility, in 60:8 it is kindness.

Quote:
You are completely wrong when adding "collectively". You completely ignore here 60:8 and 60:9. The context of the passage is 60:1-9. 60:4 on its own is out of context. Where is your objectivity?
It is objective when I compare 3,400++ verses of contempt against non-Muslims against merely 10-20 [or even 100++ loosely]verses where Allah mentioned 'kindness' or non-hatred elements in relation to non-Muslims.

Quote:
"Them" should not be nasty then, and wage war against the Muslims for their religion, should they? Such "them" are not "them" in 60:8-9.
I have shown you verses where Allah is very angry with disbelievers because they merely disbelieve Allah and his messenger.

In addition if a God is a supposedly a matured and wise god, such a god would never have introduced 'war' [an evil itself] into a holy or religious text to ensure no follower can abuse it.

Quote:
Nor were the views of Usama bin Laden views of a country or of any Muslim parliament. All three had one thing in common, they used their religion in their war against a Muslim country. One called it "jihad" and the other called it "crusade".
You are off point here.
The point is, are these people or group influenced and inspired by evil laden elements in their holy texts.
There is no way Bush and Blair were inspired by any evil elements in the Gospels to fight others because all Christians are block by an overriding pacifist maxim in the Gospel to 'love the enemies', etc.
Bin Laden was inspired by the texts from the Quran to fight non-Muslims when Islam and Muslims are under threat.

Quote:
Muslims would not have voted for them if they had known that they would go and attack Iraq using the word crusade and then give reason of WMDs which was a lie.
You are so sure? There will be at least some Muslims who will vote for them for various reasons.

Quote:
US and UK had supported the "political ideology" when such ideology was against another Muslim country (Iran). But this poliical ideolology became owners of WMDs when supply of oil from there was threatened. This gave birth to another crusade from Bush.
You are very ignorant in this case.
From the perspective of US and UK they are not focusing on Islams and Muslims at all. That is why both insist Islam is a religions of Peace and it has nothing to do with Islam.
What Bush and Blair then or US and UK now were fighting are against the evil acts from whatever country or groups. They were not fighting Islam nor Muslims per-se.

Quote:
Did you expect mention of war against Muslims to be stated in every verse against the kuffar?
I am just stating the facts.
In the Quran there are 3,400 verses identifying the non-Muslims who were condemned with the worst kind of derogatory terms.
There are 300++ verses related to fighting, war, i.e. violent jihad which is very critical as this combine with the 3,400 verses to influence SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils around the world since Islam emerged to now and it will be worse in the future.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2016, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Another nonsense born in ignorance about the context of the whole Qur'an. The context of the whole Qur'an identifies and segregates unbelievers who had waged war against the Muslims and unbelievers who had not waged war against the Muslims. And you are ignoring this most important factor in the context of the Qur'an. Your foolish factor is not relevant if those unbelievers who did not wage war on Muslims are not seen in the bad light in the Qur'an (as in 60:8-9)
You are so desperate and ignorant of your own Quran in this case.
If you read the Quran at least 50 times you would not be so ignorant.

Throughout the Quran, Allah has been killing non-Muslims and destroying whatever they have purely because they disbelieved Allah and rejected his messengers.
The stories of Noah, Aad, Tamud, Lot and others did not mention the non-Muslims waged wars against the Muslims. They merely disbelieved Allah of the Quran [old], rejected the prophets and committed sins.

In the early Mecca phases the non-Muslims were not involved in wars with the Muslims.
The very aggressive wars was initiated by Muhammad who provoked the Quresh, Jews and Christians when he insulted their religions.



Quote:
Your ignorance about the chronological order is self-evident here. The whole of the chapter 96 is not chronologically first chapter but only the first 5 verses. Verse 6 onwards were revealed much later, when Abu Jahl had opposed the Qur'an and the messenger. The mention of "man" (insan) in 96:6 and onwards is this one "man", and not all unbelieving "men" (an-nas) anywhere in this whole chapter.

Another blunder in understanding the Qur'an by you, Continuum, in your zeal to portray the Qur'an in bad light! Many have failed to do so in the past and you will be another one to bite the dust before you can change anything about the Qur'an.
Where did you get your historical 'facts' re Abu Jahl?
How credible is this historical data?

I understand there are commentaries on the historical background to all the verses. However we cannot take them too seriously on a strict and specific sense.
The most we can do is to take them on the loose sense.

We infer Chapter 96 as the 1st chapter loosely because it involve a command on the prophet to 'read'.

I refer to the 46 English translations and they all imply l-insāna refer to "man" in general and human beings in general. It would be absurd and ridiculous for it to imply one particular person.

In any case, even if it refer to one man [I strongly disagree] it still imply the identification of a disbeliever and thus the OP in one sense.

The above proved you are the ignorant one.

Quote:
"Collectively" reveals your ignorance about the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, it is "selectively" (those had waged war on Muslims because of their religion Islam).
Note I was referring to the 3,400 verses [55% of the whole Quran] that identify and segregated the non-Muslims as collectively.

Quote:
Then you can't say "collectively". You can't ignore those unbelievers in 60:8-9.
That is your lack of general knowledge. You cannot differentiate the difference between the drop of water from the water of the whole ocean.

Quote:
2:89 identifies previously believers but now enemies of the believers in the Qur'an. You do not understand the context in which such previously believers became disbelievers. They had even sided with unbelievers who were waging war against Muslims. You understand nothing about that.
Disbelievers became believers then became disbeliever still imply the subject of believers and disbelievers regardless which is still related to the OP.

Quote:
It is an immature mind that thinks that Allah should always be polishing shoes of rebellious men no matter what they do.
Your moral compass and conscience is very pathetic. A god which is supposedly to be all powerful, all knowing and all-whatever will not be that childish and sadistic.
An all powerful God should make human better and progressively rather than sealing human hearts from being believers then torture them in Hell with glee.
What kind of God is that?

Quote:
And you? No bias? Could you please be honest?
I don't deny I could be bias. However I made the attempt to be as objective as possible. Objective meant my statement is open to be scrutinized and justified by any rational person.

Quote:
Your credibility and objectivity about the Qur'an is in tatters the moment you ignored 60:8-9 when beginning this thread. I have highlighted your shortcomings and ignorance about the Qur'an.
You cannot differentiate the difference between the drop of water from the water of the whole ocean and perhaps will never know how.


Quote:
I have done just that in this post. Admit your ignorance!
Where?
I have countered all your shallow replies, e.g.
"You cannot differentiate the difference between the drop of water from the water of the whole ocean."

Quote:
You have done nothing of the sort! I have identified your ignorance about this chapter. Only the first 5 verses were revealed first on the Mountain of Light.
You cannot differentiate the difference between the drop of water from the water of the whole ocean.

Quote:
They not only do not believe in the Qur'an but hate what Allah has conveyed through Muhammad. Hating the message and the messenger is hating the One who sent the message (47:26, 3:118).
Again you are very ignorant on this.

The disbelievers did not hate Allah, i.e. the God from their own perspective.
Surely the Jews and Christian love their own monotheistic God -Allah in accordance to their holy texts.
If they ever hate Messenger it is because he first insulted their religion.
As I had mentioned the Quresh, Jews and Christian were living peaceful for hundred of years around the region until Muhammad [with ungrounded zeal] came into the picture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-28-2016, 03:38 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are so desperate and ignorant of your own Quran in this case.
If you read the Quran at least 50 times you would not be so ignorant.
You will stay ignorant about the Qur'an even if you read it another 50 times because your heart and mind are sealed lest you understand it (17:46, 18:57, 6:25).

6:25 And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and heaviness in their ears ; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it, so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-28-2016, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You will stay ignorant about the Qur'an even if you read it another 50 times because your heart and mind are sealed lest you understand it (17:46, 18:57, 6:25).

6:25 And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and heaviness in their ears ; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it, so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you...
This proves my point the Quran segregate mankind into "us versus them" i.e. Muslims [believers] versus non-Muslims [disbelievers].

In addition we have a god in the Quran that deliberately and cruelly cause people to be disbelievers and then torture them in hell with glee.

I have problems understanding the Quran objectively, it is just that I do not agree with the evil elements in the Quran that inspired SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit evils and violence around the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top