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View Poll Results: Does the Quran Invoke the "Us versus Them" Impulse?
Agree 4 57.14%
Disagree 2 28.57%
None of the above 1 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2016, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Does the Quran invoke the "Us versus Them" and divide all humans into two camps?
1. Muslims and non-Muslims, YES/NO
2. believers and disbelievers, YES/NO
3. Muslims and kuffar, YES/NO,

i.e. Us=Muslim=good versus Them=non-Muslims=evil.

To be justified one will have to read the 114 Chapters or 6,236 verses of the Quran to find out.
Since that is too tedious, let's take a sample of verses from Chapter 2, i.e. 2:1-29 which I think is sufficient to assess the question: in [] = mine

infidels = non-Muslims, disbelievers, idolaters, kuffar, kafara
Chapter 2
1. Alif. Lam. Mim.
2. This [Quran] is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those [Muslims - muttagin] who ward off (evil).
3. [Muslims] Who believe in the unseen [Ghaib - transcendental God], and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4. And [Muslims] who believe in that [Quran]which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that [Torah, Gospel] which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
5. These [Muslims] depend on guidance from their Lord. These [Muslims] are the successful.

6. As for the disbelievers [kuffar, Infidels], whether thou warn them [infidels] or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they [infidels] believe not.
7. Allah hath sealed their [infidels'] hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs [infidels -kuffar] will be an awful doom.
8. And of mankind are some who say: We [pretend Muslims] believe [amana ا م ن] in Allah and the Last Day , when they [infidel pretenders] believe not. [refer to hypocrisy of Ibn Abi?]
9. They [infidels, Kuffar] think to beguile [trick mislead; delude.] Allah and those [Muslims] who believe, and they [infidels] beguile none save themselves; but they [the Kuffar] perceive not.
10. In their [infidels, Kuffar] hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom theirs [is the Kuffar's] because they lie.
11. And when it is said unto them [infidels]: Make not mischief in the earth, they [infidels] say: We are peacemakers only. [Imply Kuffar are deceptive and Liars]
12. Are not they [infidels, Kuffar] indeed the mischief makers? But they [infidels, Kuffar] perceive not.
13. And when it is said unto them [infidels]: Believe as the people [Muslims] believe, they [infidels] say: Shall we [infidels] believe as the foolish believe? Are not they [infidels] indeed the foolish? But they [infidels] know not.
14. And when they [infidels] fall in with those [Muslims] who believe, they [infidels] say: We [infidels] believe; but when they [infidels] go apart to their [infidels] devils they [infidels] declare: Lo! we [infidels] are with you; verily we [infidels] did but mock. [Hypocrites]
15. Allah (Himself) doth mock them [infidels], leaving them [infidels] to wander blindly on in their [infidels'] contumacy. [Obstinate resistance]
16. These are they [the Infidels] who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they [infidels] guided. [infer loss and to hell on Judgment Day]
17. Their [the Infidels, Kuffar] likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him [infidels] Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them [the Infidels] in darkness, where they [infidels] cannot see,
18. Deaf, dumb and blind; and they [infidels] Return not [to paradise]
19. Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They [infidels] thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear [terror] of dead [death]. Allah encompasseth [total domination over?] the disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance).
20. The lightning almost snatcheth away their [infidels] sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them [infidels] they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them [infidels] they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their [the infidels'] hearing and their sight Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
21. O mankind! Worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
22. Who [Allah] hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you [mankind], and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye [mankind] know (better).
23. And if ye [infidels] are in doubt concerning that [Quran] which We [Allah] reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses [partners, gods] beside Allah if ye [infidels] are truthful.
24. And if ye [infidels] do it not and ye [infidels] can never do it [produce a sura] - then guard yourselves against the fire prepared for disbelievers [infidels], whose fuel is of men and stones.

25. And give glad tidings [news] (O Muhammad) unto those [Muslims] who believe and do good works; that theirs [Muslims'] are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they [Muslims] are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they [Muslims] say: This is what was given us [proto-Muslims] aforetime; and it is given to them [current Muslims] in resemblance. There for them [Muslims] are pure companions [virgins]; there for ever they [Muslims] abide.
26. Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those [Muslims] who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those [infidels] who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He [Allah] misleadeth many [infidels] thereby, and He guideth many [Muslims] thereby; and He [Allah] misleadeth thereby only miscreants; [Allah deliberately create infidels]
27. Those [apostates] who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it and sever [cut, sever] that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those [infidels] are they who are the losers
28. How disbelieve ye [infidels] in Allah when ye [infidels] were dead and He gave life to you! Then he will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye [infidels] will return.
29. He [Allah] it is Who created for you [mankind] all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is Knower of all things.
My use of "infidels" is merely a loose terms to denote "them" [i.e. disbelivers, kuffar, kafara, idolaters, non-Muslims].

From the above one can easily note verse 2:1-5 identify the Muslims [us] as good and
from verses 2:6-24 the non-Muslims [them - majority] are identified as evil for condemnation with terrible derogatory terms.

Verses 2:25-29 comprised elements of Muslims [us] and non-Muslims [them].

From the above it is obvious the Quran [based on 2:1-29] divide all humans into two camps thus the answers are;

Does the Quran divide all humans into two camps? i.e.
1. Muslims and non-Muslims, YES
2. believers and disbelievers, YES
3. Muslims and kuffar, YES

The above answer is very objective based on the contents of the verses re Chapter 2:1-29.

I have merely picked up 29 verses as a matter of convenience.
However actual analysis indicated there are 189 verses that contain reference to non-Muslims [kuffar, kafara, disbelievers, idolaters'] i.e. "them" out of 286 verses.

I have done an analysis for each of the 114 chapters and the total is appx 3,400 verses [more than 55%] that identify "them" [kuffar, kafara, non-Muslim] against "us."
I have the numbers for each chapter.

There are only a rare few verses that is positive to the "them" the majority of the "them" [kuffar, kafara, non-Muslims] and directed with all sort and the worst kind of derogatory and dehumanizing terms.

Conclusion:
Therefore the Quran rely on the primal impulse of 'us versus them' to generally differentiate between Muslims [us = good] and non-Muslims [them = evil].

Agree/Disagree?

Last edited by Continuum; 04-25-2016 at 01:16 AM..
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:33 AM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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lol @ Us vs them.

How about,

Quran 2:62
Quran 41:46
Quran 4:124


/thread?
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Old 04-25-2016, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
lol @ Us vs them.
How about,
Quran 2:62
Quran 41:46
Quran 4:124
2:62. Lo! those [Muslims] who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
This verse identified the favored Muslims.
The Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans of the past who complied with the original revelation were recognized as Muslims and believers.
The Quran claims the Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans of the present are not Muslims because their central texts have been corrupted.
4:124. And whoso [Muslim] doeth good works, whether of male or female, and he (or she) is a believer, such will enter paradise and they [Muslims] will not be wronged the dint in a date stone.
This verse identify Muslim in a positive light.
41:46. Whoso doeth right [Muslims] it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong [infidels] it is against it. And thy Lord is not at all a tyrant to His slaves [Muslims].
This verse differentiate us-Muslim and them-infidel[s] who did it wrong.

All the above verses reflect the 'us versus them' differentiations.

It is obvious the Quran invoke the primal 'us versus them' to differentiate Muslims as superior while the non-Muslims are inferior and worst of creatures to give Muslims a sense of false arrogance. This is due to their low self-esteem.
In this "us versus them" elements the non-Muslims are put in the worst negative light with terrible contempt and hatred. If there is anything positive that is very very rare.
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:20 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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You are familiar with the US vs THEM mentality of the OT war god, right?
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:33 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
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Since this is just another thinly veiled Muslim bashing thread, it is being moved to the Islam sub-forum, where it may be dealt with further.
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
[indent]It is obvious the Quran invoke the primal 'us versus them' to differentiate Muslims as superior while the non-Muslims are inferior and worst of creatures to give Muslims a sense of false arrogance. This is due to their low self-esteem.
All this crap from you about Muslim this and Muslims that versus non-muslim is in an extremely loose sense. This loose sense is born in ignorance about the Qur'an due to your low self-esteem when reading the Qur'an.

Quote:
In this "us versus them" elements the non-Muslims are put in the worst negative light with terrible contempt and hatred. If there is anything positive that is very very rare.
Why is there anything positive if they are put in the worst negattive light with contempt and hatred?

5:8 O you (Muslims) who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of any (non-Muslims) people incite you not to act equitably, act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be concious of Allah, surely Allah is aware of what you do.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those (non-Muslims) who have not made war against you because of (your) religion and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves doers of justice.


Therefore, in us v them, them are not all non-Muslims but only those non-Muslims who had waged war against Muslims because of their religion and had expelled them out of their homes. The Qur'an has made clear who those "them" were. Anyone else feeling the pinch is either through hatred against Muslims or due to his very low self-esteem (read inferior complex).
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:09 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Since this is just another thinly veiled Muslim bashing thread, it is being moved to the Islam sub-forum, where it may be dealt with further.
Thank you sir for correctly identifying the actual intent behind OP.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
You are familiar with the US vs THEM mentality of the OT war god, right?
This "us versus them" impulse that is inherent in humans since humans emerged.
First it is us=humans versus them [animals] to differentiate animals who would instinctively eat humans for food without hesitation that are a threat to humans.
Then as there are more humans this inherent us versus them is applied to differentiate others humans of other tribes who may be a threat.

Because it is so inherent in human beings, yes there is the us versus them in OT and even in the NT.
This us versus them impulse is common within humans, e.g. one sports team against the opponents, in political parties [democrats versus republicans], ideologies [ us-communists versus them-others], this clan versus that clan, Sunni versus Shia, Western versus Eastern etc.
The question is the degree, intensity and the accompanying evil laden elements therein.

In this case I want a confirmation from others this common us versus them exist in the Quran.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Since this is just another thinly veiled Muslim bashing thread, it is being moved to the Islam sub-forum, where it may be dealt with further.
I raised it in the General Religious and Spiritual Forum to get a poll from more people [there are not many active members in this forum] from different religions and others to express their views.

It is not Muslims bashing but a poll based on objective facts.
If it true the Quran employs the inherent common instincts of 'us versus them' then what is wrong with discussing this truth. The truth must prevails for humanity sake.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-26-2016 at 12:38 AM..
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
All this crap from you about Muslim this and Muslims that versus non-muslim is in an extremely loose sense. This loose sense is born in ignorance about the Qur'an due to your low self-esteem when reading the Qur'an.

Why is there anything positive if they are put in the worst negattive light with contempt and hatred?

5:8 O you (Muslims) who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of any (non-Muslims) people incite you not to act equitably, act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be concious of Allah, surely Allah is aware of what you do.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those (non-Muslims) who have not made war against you because of (your) religion and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves doers of justice.


Therefore, in us v them, them are not all non-Muslims but only those non-Muslims who had waged war against Muslims because of their religion and had expelled them out of their homes. The Qur'an has made clear who those "them" were. Anyone else feeling the pinch is either through hatred against Muslims or due to his very low self-esteem (read inferior complex).
Note I mentioned this in the OP;

Quote:
There are only a rare few verses that is positive to the "them" the majority of the "them" [kuffar, kafara, non-Muslims] and directed with all sort and the worst kind of derogatory and dehumanizing terms.
The two you listed above are the few rare ones and then again they are not stated in the absolute sense.
Note in 60:4 Allah stated;
60:4 [part] ... We [Muslims] have done with you [infidels] . And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility and hate for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah. ...
5:8 is one of those rare ones but note 5:10
5:10. And they [infidels] who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such [infidels] are rightful owners of hell.
There are hundreds of verses where non-Muslims are blasted with the worst kind of condemnation and torture in the Islamic Hell.

But the fact remains, the Quran employed the "us versus them" impulse where the majority of these instances the non-Muslims are directed with the worst kind of contempt. Pleasantries toward the non-Muslims are very very rare and not in absolute terms.

The NT also rely on the "us versus them" to a large degree but then the overriding maxim from the NT is 'Love Them' even if they [them] are your enemies.

Quote:
Therefore, in us v them, them are not all non-Muslims but only those non-Muslims who had waged war against Muslims because of their religion and had expelled them out of their homes.
Note I listed 2:1-29 and you will note the disbelievers are identified as "them" purely on the basis they do not believe Allah and his messenger and not because of war, etc.

There are many other verses where non-Muslims are segregated as "them" from "us -Muslims" purely because those "them" do not believe in Allah and Muhammad.
2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
The non-Muslims are disbelievers [kuffar - them] for not believing in Allah and the messenger.
3:32 Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
I suggest you read the Quran again [at least 50 times] and note my point re "us versus them".
The war related verses are not many when compared to non-Muslims being condemned with contempt for merely disbelieving Allah and his messenger.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-26-2016 at 12:53 AM..
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