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Old 04-28-2016, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Continuum

It is ridiculous to say faith is not belief but trust.
Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence as a result of believing in something based on the Muslims confidence of his own evidence and conviction in relation to the Quran.
This definition of faith should be acceptable to a Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Blue is faith/eeman. Red is belief or beliefs.
Bad logic and presentation.

Here is the proper presentation;

1. Generic Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence [without justifiable proofs] as a result of believing in something.
This is the generic believing and beliefs that exists in ALL humans and undeniable.

2. Generic Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence as a result of believing in something is termed "eeman" when specifically is referred in a specific context with Islam and Quran.
Eeman [strong] is associated with the 6 pillars of eeman [extracted from the Quran].

Example:
1. Generic God consciousness is present in all theistic practices.
2. However this generic God consciousness is term 'tagwa' when specifically is referred in a specific context with Islam and Quran.
3. God consciousness is termed 'tagwa' only in Islam and no where else.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:41 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Originally Posted by Continuum

It is ridiculous to say faith is not belief but trust.
Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence as a result of believing in something based on the Muslims confidence of his own evidence and conviction in relation to the Quran.
This definition of faith should be acceptable to a Muslim.

Bad logic and presentation.

Here is the proper presentation;

1. Generic Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence [without justifiable proofs] as a result of believing in something.
This is the generic believing and beliefs that exists in ALL humans and undeniable.

2. Generic Faith is beliefs, trust, confidence as a result of believing in something is termed "eeman" when specifically is referred in a specific context with Islam and Quran.
Eeman [strong] is associated with the 6 pillars of eeman [extracted from the Quran].

Example:h
1. Generic God consciousness is present in all theistic practices.
2. However this generic God consciousness is term 'tagwa' when specifically is referred in a specific context with Islam and Quran.
3. God consciousness is termed 'tagwa' only in Islam and no where else.
You are forgetting that this is Islam rather than generic, secular or loose forum. Islam is pure monotheism. Terms in it are also pure and precise terms. If you try to dilute these terms with other terms, expect utter fallure.

The 6 pillars are 6 beliefs (something) rather than 6 faiths or 6 eemans. Eeman is never eemans. Try to understand these statements!
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are forgetting that this is Islam rather than generic, secular or loose forum. Islam is pure monotheism. Terms in it are also pure and precise terms. If you try to dilute these terms with other terms, expect utter fallure.
When did I say Islam is generic or secular.
However Islam can be used in the loose or general form.
When we say 'Islam is one of the mainstream religions' that would be in the loose form.
If we want to define 'Islam' strictly we will have bring in the Shahada, Quran and submission.

Quote:
The 6 pillars are 6 beliefs (something) rather than 6 faiths or 6 eemans. Eeman is never eemans. Try to understand these statements!
Again I have not mentioned 6 faiths or 6 eemans.

One can sleep in many positions, have deep or shallow sleep, dream sleep, etc. but there is only one state of mind of being asleep which can be verified by its main scientific properties.

Similarly "eeman" is a specific state of mind of believing resulting from a set of beliefs without proofs, i.e. faith that is specific to Islam -only. Eeman in the strict sense must be related specifically to the 6 pillars of eeman.
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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At present there are many researches going on that show the impact of religion, spirituality and faith on the human brain. I am very familiar with this area of research.
Below is one article.

How God (or more precisely, meditation) changes your brain
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/...on-scan-2.jpeg



At present these researches and their results whilst have been going on for many years are still crude. Therefore whatever the results we need to take it with a pinch of salt.

Nevertheless with high optimism the potential is in the future these researchers will be able to track as close as possible locations in the brain that support the mental faculty of 'faith' and thus be able to approximate the degree of faith with various qualifications.

Thence it would be possible to determine and measure the degrees of eeman [a state of mind] of Muslims.
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:30 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Similarly "eeman" is a specific state of mind of believing resulting from a set of beliefs without proofs, i.e. faith that is specific to Islam -only. Eeman in the strict sense must be related specifically to the 6 pillars of eeman.
If you have now come to believe that eeman is faith in a set of beliefs in the Qur'an then we have come on to the same platform. Yes?
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Old 04-29-2016, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If you have now come to believe that eeman is faith in a set of beliefs in the Qur'an then we have come on to the same platform. Yes?
What do you mean "IF I have now have come to believe ..."

I have been asserting that all along in general but note my additional qualifications;

1. Eeman in the strict sense is faith in a specific set of beliefs [i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman].

2. Eeman in the loose sense is merely faith in the loose sense and loosely applied to beliefs and not to the whole specific set of the 6 pillars of eeman.
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Old 04-30-2016, 12:46 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What do you mean "IF I have now have come to believe ..."

I have been asserting that all along in general but note my additional qualifications;

1. Eeman in the strict sense is faith in a specific set of beliefs [i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman].

2. Eeman in the loose sense is merely faith in the loose sense and loosely applied to beliefs and not to the whole specific set of the 6 pillars of eeman.
I can see that it is very hard for you to believe that eeman is not beliefs (eeman = beliefs) but eeman is about beliefs. Eeman (rather than eemans) is faith (rather than faiths) in Allah and whatever proceeds from Him (In His messages). Everything else, whether you or anyone else calls it/them pillars or walls, is within these two beliefs. In fact, even the belief about the messages (books) from Him is entirly due to belief in Allah. Therefore, in reality, eeman is only about faith in Allah. It is One BIG PILLAR. It is people who have created 5 more pillars out of this ONE BIG PILLAR. When Moses had believed (come to have eeman) the only pillar he had believed in was Allah. Just one blast at the mountain from Allah was enough for him to have eeman (specific). In case of Islam/the Qur'an, we have to have eeman in Allah, and the other 5 pillars are born from this ONE PILLAR of faith. Breaking it down to 6 pillars is designed for uneducated to be educated about Islam. Therefore, eeman is specific term in the Qur'an for faith in Allah. The rest of the beliefs are within this one belief and are intrinsically linked (can't be seperated). Faith in this one belief is expressed in specific term as eeman.

My apology for this long-winded explanation of the specific term eeman but it has worked so far (slowly but surely) quite well. The next hurdle is to explain how to condense all 6 pillars into ONE BIG PILLAR of EEMAN (FAITH).
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Old 04-30-2016, 02:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I can see that it is very hard for you to believe that eeman is not beliefs (eeman = beliefs) but eeman is about beliefs. Eeman (rather than eemans) is faith (rather than faiths) in Allah and whatever proceeds from Him (In His messages). Everything else, whether you or anyone else calls it/them pillars or walls, is within these two beliefs. In fact, even the belief about the messages (books) from Him is entirly due to belief in Allah. Therefore, in reality, eeman is only about faith in Allah. It is One BIG PILLAR.
Again you are confused.

Not all faith-in-Allah is eeman.
For Jews, Christian or Hindus, faith in Allah [God] is not termed "eeman."

Eeman in the strict sense is faith resulting from a specific set of beliefs [i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman] and eeman is confined to the Quran and Islam only.
Relatively the practice of eeman [faith strict] is inferior to those of Christianity and Hinduism [Vedanta].

Note faith in Allah is eeman in the loose sense.
Faith in Allah has a range of degrees which is dependent on many factors.
If your belief in Allah is general them such a faith is of low quality in contrast to one who realize the concept of the ontological God.
Because there are so many dependent factors that determine the degree of faith in Allah, one has to deliberate eeman in the strict sense. This is why there is the extraction/packaging of the 6 pillars of eeman from the various principles conveyed by Allah in the Quran.

Quote:
It is people who have created 5 more pillars out of this ONE BIG PILLAR. When Moses had believed (come to have eeman) the only pillar he had believed in was Allah. Just one blast at the mountain from Allah was enough for him to have eeman (specific). In case of Islam/the Qur'an, we have to have eeman in Allah, and the other 5 pillars are born from this ONE PILLAR of faith. Breaking it down to 6 pillars is designed for uneducated to be educated about Islam. Therefore, eeman is specific term in the Qur'an for faith in Allah. The rest of the beliefs are within this one belief and are intrinsically linked (can't be seperated). Faith in this one belief is expressed in specific term as eeman.
You got it wrong again.

Faith in general is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
Eeman [strict or general] is faith which is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons in the Islamic perspective.
In the strict sense, eeman is specifically related to the 6 pillars of eeman.

The point here is one need to understand the above and apply them to the respective verses and their contexts in the Quran.

Quote:
My apology for this long-winded explanation of the specific term eeman but it has worked so far (slowly but surely) quite well. The next hurdle is to explain how to condense all 6 pillars into ONE BIG PILLAR of EEMAN (FAITH).
You are in denial all the way. It is very unfortunate for me that I have encountered a thick skull like yours. I believe I would not have wasted so much time if I were to explain to others the following;

Faith in general is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
Eeman [strict or general] is faith which is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons in the Islamic perspective.
In the strict sense, eeman is specifically related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:59 AM
 
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum.


Part 1: Islamic Beliefs (the Pillars of Islam) Part 1: Islamic Beliefs (the Pillars of Islam) | Invitation to Islam | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

Allah, or God, is the center of Muslim belief. Whereas certain religions focus on individuals, like Christianity focuses on Jesus (peace be upon him), Islam focuses solely on Allah.
Although Muslims respect the divine prophets, the prophets - including Prophet Muhammad
(S) - are still only servants of Allah.

The Qur'an itself speaks of the oneness of God:
"Allah has borne witness that there is no God but Him - and the angels, and those
with knowledge also witness this. He is always standing firm on justice. There is
no God but Him, the Mighty, the Wise." (3:18)

The oneness of Allah is not only a philosophical argument but is an affirmation that all
human beings declared before their souls came into their bodies:

[Remember] when your Lord brought forth the children of Adam from their loins
and made them testify over themselves, saying, "Am I not your Lord?" They said,"Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, "Verily, we were unaware of this." (7:172)

Such was the covenant that Allah made with all people at the time of creation regardless of
whether these same people now claim to believe in God or not. At that time, they
proclaimed His majesty, His sovereignty, His power, and His absolute oneness and
transcendence.

Likewise, all people today, regardless of their origins, are naturally inclined towards the
idea that God is one and without partner. The Qur'an tells Prophet Muhammad (peace be
upon him):

Set your face to the true religion [Islamic monotheism], the natural inclination (fitra) with
which Allah has created mankind. [Let there be] no change in what Allah has made; that is
the straight religion, but most people do not understand. (30:30)
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Old 04-30-2016, 03:01 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again you are confused.

Not all faith-in-Allah is eeman.
For Jews, Christian or Hindus, faith in Allah [God] is not termed "eeman."
You are saying so in ignorance. Whatever the kuffar had believed about Allah is also termed "eeman" (their eeman) in the Qur'an. This is why it is not all about 6 pillars of faith but pillars of faithlessness too (32:29, 2:93, 40:28).

Quote:
Eeman in the strict sense is faith resulting from a specific set of beliefs [i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman] and eeman is confined to the Quran and Islam only.
Not quite true! Read 2:93. Eeman predates the Qur'an.

Quote:
Note faith in Allah is eeman in the loose sense.
Faith in Allah is Čeman in Allah in precise sense.

Quote:
Faith in Allah has a range of degrees which is dependent on many factors.
One either has faith/eeman in Allah or has no faith/eeman in Allah.

Quote:
If your belief in Allah is general them such a faith is of low quality in contrast to one who realize the concept of the ontological God.
Eeman in Allah is precise.

Quote:
Because there are so many dependent factors that determine the degree of faith in Allah, one has to deliberate eeman in the strict sense. This is why there is the extraction/packaging of the 6 pillars of eeman from the various principles conveyed by Allah in the Quran.
You got it wrong.

There are no degrees of eeman. One either has eeman or has no eeman. Even disblief is "no eeman". What one calls 6 pillars are in fact 5 beliefs proceeding from one belief. Faith in 6 beliefs is all about faith in One Big Belief. What you think about degrees of eeman is, in reality, degrees of one's strength in eeman. We are either strong in believing or weak in believing. I am a STRONG believer.

Quote:
Faith in general is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
For you may be but not for me. For me faith in Allah is not general or loose but specific. I have my reasons for such faith, and that's all that matters to me. If you have justifiable reasons not to have faith in Allah, and you are happy not have faith, it's not a problem for me.

Quote:
Eeman [strict or general] is faith which is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons in the Islamic perspective.
Not in the Islamic perspective but only in the unislamic perspective.

Quote:
In the strict sense, eeman is specifically related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
Which is ONE BIG PILLAR.

Quote:
The point here is one need to understand the above and apply them to the respective verses and their contexts in the Quran.
Do you really understand exactly what you are talking about here?

Eeman is all about eeman in Allah. The book is about Allah. When one has eeman in Allah, one has eeman in His books because of Him, His messengers because they delivered His messges, the angels that do His work as revealed in he book, the last day because it is in the book, the day of judgment because it is in the book, which is from Him. Everything comes from Him and goes back to Him, that is Allah the Greatest, and none is like Him (112:4) Without Allah, there won't be even one pillar for you to understand as there would be nobody to understand anything.

Quote:
You are in denial all the way. It is very unfortunate for me that I have encountered a thick skull like yours. I believe I would not have wasted so much time if I were to explain to others the following;

Faith in general is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons.
Eeman [strict or general] is faith which is beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons in the Islamic perspective.
In the strict sense, eeman is specifically related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
I like my thick skull. No loose or strict nonsense from you gets through it. You are not the first one nor are likely to be the last one to feel hopeless and helpless against me. This is so because I am a "strong believer" in precise sense due to my eeman. Thank Allah for it!

ALLAHUAKBAR!
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