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Old 04-30-2016, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are saying so in ignorance. Whatever the kuffar had believed about Allah is also termed "eeman" (their eeman) in the Qur'an. This is why it is not all about 6 pillars of faith but pillars of faithlessness too (32:29, 2:93, 40:28).

Not quite true! Read 2:93. Eeman predates the Qur'an.
That is where you are deceptive in denying the use of strict and loose sense of a term where you can switch and conflate the difference senses.

What the kuffar had is disbelieved not faithlessness.
Believing is a mental process.
Believing in something is a mental process relating to that something X.
A disbeliever DO NOT has any "mental process of believing in something -X.

Example:
If a testosterone charged teenager male see a nude Miss Universe, he will instantly be sexually stimulated and an erection. This is because the relevant sexual circuit in the brain are triggered and it trigger other bodily reactions.
If a testosterone charged homosexual teenager male see a nude Miss Universe, he would not be sexually stimulated and have an erection. This is because the relevant sexual circuit in the brain are not triggered so no bodily reactions.

Similarly a disbeliever do not has any mental process of believing.
Therefore a disbeliever do not has any believe [negative] about Allah.
What the disbeliever has is a belief on the irrational belief of the believer.

Get it!

Quote:
Not quite true! Read 2:93. Eeman predates the Qur'an.
In the other thread, I have been arguing humans has beliefs and thus faith right millions of years ago.
However eeman in the strict sense [6 pillars] is related only the Quran and Islam of Muhammad.
Obvious the Muslims-of-old believe and has faith [eeman] but we can only state such eeman in the loose sense.


Quote:
Faith in Allah is Čeman in Allah in precise sense.
I can agree eeman is precise [your word] and in the loose sense. Eeman is only in the strict sense when related and require absolute total acceptance of the 6 pillars of eeman.

Quote:
One either has faith/eeman in Allah or has no faith/eeman in Allah.
Eeman in Allah is precise.
It is either Allah or no Allah.
ALL Muslims has faith in Allah,
but since believing is a mental process which results in degrees of faith [conviction, confidence, trust], then faith in Allah can vary depending on the mental state of the person.
There is no way all humans has the same degree of faith in anything and no way ALL Muslims has the same degree of faith in Allah.


Quote:
You got it wrong.
There are no degrees of eeman. One either has eeman or has no eeman. Even disblief is "no eeman". What one calls 6 pillars are in fact 5 beliefs proceeding from one belief. Faith in 6 beliefs is all about faith in One Big Belief. What you think about degrees of eeman is, in reality, degrees of one's strength in eeman. We are either strong in believing or weak in believing. I am a STRONG believer.
Can you prove me wrong on the following logic:
1. All mental processes come in degrees.
2. Eeman [faith] in Allah is a mental process.
3. Therefore eeman [faith] in Allah come in degrees.

Thus there are degrees in eeman.

Another logic:
1. Believing results in faith [eeman].
2. Believing is a mental process of humans, therefore has degrees.
3. Therefore degrees of believing result in degrees of faith.

Prove me wrong in the above rational analysis.

The problem is your thinking in stuck due to some common psychological desperations. That is why you are prevented from thinking from the perspective of reality and human nature.
Read this link to find out how your belief has imprison your mind and thinking ability.
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog4...eft-islam.html

Quote:
For you may be but not for me. For me faith in Allah is not general or loose but specific. I have my reasons for such faith, and that's all that matters to me. If you have justifiable reasons not to have faith in Allah, and you are happy not have faith, it's not a problem for me.
I fully understand why you think that way. The explanation is within the blog and video therein I linked above.
But we are in this forum where you cannot be a zombie but we have to acknowledge reality in this discussion.
The reality of believing in anything [resulting in faith if not provable] is a mental process, thus it has degree and has to be dealt with semantically/linguistically in the strict or loose sense.

Quote:
Not in the Islamic perspective but only in the unislamic perspective.
I am referring to "eeman" as used in the verses of the Quran. How can that be unislamic. You are blasphemous in this case.

Quote:
Which is ONE BIG PILLAR.
Science is ONE BIG PILLAR of scientific knowledge.
Obvious Science is great in terms of its useful knowledge.
However to get to the greatness of Science one has to refer to its main pillars, i.e. the Scientific Method, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, then referring to the various sub-pillars.
It is the focus on the main pillars of Science that made Science great not Science itself.
In addition we always use Science in the strict and loose sense.

Similarly, God is ONE BIG PILLAR, but what is most relevant are the main pillars and sub-pillars that need to be addressed.

Quote:
Do you really understand exactly what you are talking about here?

Eeman is all about eeman in Allah. The book is about Allah. When one has eeman in Allah, one has eeman in His books because of Him, His messengers because they delivered His messges, the angels that do His work as revealed in he book, the last day because it is in the book, the day of judgment because it is in the book, which is from Him. Everything comes from Him and goes back to Him, that is Allah the Greatest, and none is like Him (112:4) Without Allah, there won't be even one pillar for you to understand as there would be nobody to understand anything.
You are guessing and speculating on the above points.

It is common sense and reality that not All Muslims has the same convictions in Allah when they believe in Allah. Most would have affirmed the Shahada but most Muslims would not have read the whole Quran even once. Some may have read some chapters and do their prayers. Most would merely affirm the Shahada and believe whatever their iman or leaders say or follow their leaders.
Therefore it is not likely that ALL Muslims are aware of the 6 pillars of eeman and how to cultivate stronger eeman in the strict sense.

Quote:
I like my thick skull. No loose or strict nonsense from you gets through it. You are not the first one nor are likely to be the last one to feel hopeless and helpless against me. This is so because I am a "strong believer" in precise sense due to my eeman. Thank Allah for it!
ALLAHUAKBAR!
You like that 'thick skull' and admit you are a slow thinker.
Thickskulled | Definition of Thickskulled by Merriam-Webster

"feel hopeless and helpless" it has nothing to do with me or my expectations.
If you like a thick skull that is your choice.
I know believing in Allah will increase the thickness of a person's skull, i.e. made most [not all] believers a zombie.
Note the link and video therein which explain why believers must stick to confirmation bias, inoculation theory and all sorts of bias to protect their psychological bubble.
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Old 05-01-2016, 04:24 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is where you are deceptive in denying the use of strict and loose sense of a term where you can switch and conflate the difference senses.

What the kuffar had is disbelieved not faithlessness.
Believing is a mental process.
Believing in something is a mental process relating to that something X.
A disbeliever DO NOT has any "mental process of believing in something -X.
Read 32:29. It is about dsbelievers and "their eeman" ("eemanuhum"). Their eeman has nothing to do with 6 pillars.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read 32:29. It is about dsbelievers and "their eeman" ("eemanuhum"). Their eeman has nothing to do with 6 pillars.
That is why the use of 'strict' and 'loose' sense is so critical in understanding and avoid confusion.

"Their eemam" in this case is referred to in the loose sense.

I have mentioned strongly, the 6 pillars of eeman is eeman in the strict sense.

This is why 'their eeman" of the disbelievers has nothing to do with the 6 pillars of eeman.


Note disbelievers do not has eeman [loose] in Allah of the Quran from Muhammad, but they definitely have faith [eeman] [loose] in their own respective God or deities.
Christians would have faith [eeman] in the loose sense. But in the strict sense their faith [strictly] is called 'Grace' but never "eeman" in the strict sense.

That is why you need to note 'strict' and 'loose' sense in any terms when reading any texts [Quran included] to make sense within the relevant contexts.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif

Read 32:29. It is about disbelievers and "their eeman" ("eemanuhum"). Their eeman has nothing to do with 6 pillars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
From my point of view, Allah has chosen the terms precisely. No terms from Allah can be changed into human loose terms.

Precise means precise and not general, loose or any that can be changed to another term. Allah has chosen terms in the Qur'an precisely and you can't turn them into loose terms even if you try your utmost best.
You stated above 'precise' means not general nor loose.
That meant your precise is equivalent to 'strict' 'specific' and the likes.

You mentioned 32:29

32:29. [Asad] Say: “On the Day of the Final Decision, their [newly-found] faith will be of no use to those who [in their lifetime] were bent on denying the truth, nor will they be granted respite!” –
In this case Allah is using 'eeman' in the general and loose term.
As such, eeman is general and thus can be referred to the eeman of disbelievers.
In general [loose] sense, the eeman [faith] of Muslims is the same as eeman [faith] of disbelievers.
So in this case Allah is not using eeman in the precise, specific, strict sense but in the general or loose sense.

However in other cases, Allah is using eeman in the strict sense when such specific eeman is related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
Eeman in relation to the 6 pillars of eeman i.e. in the strict sense cannot be the same as the eeman [strict] of disbelievers.

Therefore your claim that Allah only use terms in the precise sense is WRONG!! as proven above.
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Old 05-03-2016, 01:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You stated above 'precise' means not general nor loose.
That meant your precise is equivalent to 'strict' 'specific' and the likes.

You mentioned 32:29

32:29. [Asad] Say: “On the Day of the Final Decision, their [newly-found] faith will be of no use to those who [in their lifetime] were bent on denying the truth, nor will they be granted respite!” –
In this case Allah is using 'eeman' in the general and loose term.
As such, eeman is general and thus can be referred to the eeman of disbelievers.
In general [loose] sense, the eeman [faith] of Muslims is the same as eeman [faith] of disbelievers.
So in this case Allah is not using eeman in the precise, specific, strict sense but in the general or loose sense.

However in other cases, Allah is using eeman in the strict sense when such specific eeman is related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
Eeman in relation to the 6 pillars of eeman i.e. in the strict sense cannot be the same as the eeman [strict] of disbelievers.

Therefore your claim that Allah only use terms in the precise sense is WRONG!! as proven above.
You have proven nothing but your own confusion.

I knew you do not and would not understand the precise term eeman but only in your loose sense.

Eeman stated in the Qur'an is precse term for faith in Allah and His message. In the Qur'an it is always precise reference to faith in "Allah and His message". It is never referred to outside this precise reference.

By giving you example of eeman of disbelievers, and saying that they too have eeman, you had begun to think about their eeman as dsbelievers. No, No, you think wrong. Disbelievers do not have eeman/faith in "Allah and His message". Asad is of course correct, and disbelievers do not have eeman but WILL believe in "Allah and His message" on the Day of the Final Decision (Final Judgment) but that would be too late to be any use to them. Faith/Eeman is not about seen but about unseen.

Therefore, it is a precise term for faith in Allah and His message that proceeds from Him. Every other "pillar" (and there are more than 6) is within this precise faith. Faith in prophets is in His message, faith in revelations (books) is in His message, faith in al-qadr is in His message, faith in angels is in His message, faith in Day of Judgment is in His message. Once one believes Allah one believes in His message and whatever is in the message or else one does not believe Allah. Believing Allah and His message is precise term "eeman".
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Old 05-03-2016, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have proven nothing but your own confusion.

I knew you do not and would not understand the precise term eeman but only in your loose sense.

Eeman stated in the Qur'an is precse term for faith in Allah and His message. In the Qur'an it is always precise reference to faith in "Allah and His message". It is never referred to outside this precise reference.

By giving you example of eeman of disbelievers, and saying that they too have eeman, you had begun to think about their eeman as dsbelievers. No, No, you think wrong. Disbelievers do not have eeman/faith in "Allah and His message".
Asad is of course correct, and disbelievers do not have eeman but WILL believe in "Allah and His message" on the Day of the Final Decision (Final Judgment) but that would be too late to be any use to them. Faith/Eeman is not about seen but about unseen.

Therefore, it is a precise term for faith in Allah and His message that proceeds from Him. Every other "pillar" (and there are more than 6) is within this precise faith. Faith in prophets is in His message, faith in revelations (books) is in His message, faith in al-qadr is in His message, faith in angels is in His message, faith in Day of Judgment is in His message. Once one believes Allah one believes in His message and whatever is in the message or else one does not believe Allah. Believing Allah and His message is precise term "eeman".
32:29. [Asad] Say: “On the Day of the Final Decision, their [disbelievers'] [newly-found] faith will be of no use to those who [in their lifetime] were bent on denying the truth, nor will they be granted respite!”
There is no indication that faith in this verse refers to the specific eeman of Islam.

Nevertheless, eeman as used in the Quran is still used in the strict and loose sense in other verses.
48:4 He it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers that they might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise -
48:4 for example is used in the strict sense while others are used in the loose sense.

45:20 for example is used in the loose sense.
45:20 This is clear indication for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy for a folk whose faith is sure.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-03-2016 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:45 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
32:29. [Asad] Say: “On the Day of the Final Decision, their [disbelievers'] [newly-found] faith will be of no use to those who [in their lifetime] were bent on denying the truth, nor will they be granted respite!”
There is no indication that faith in this verse refers to the specific eeman of Islam.
It is not the specific eeman "of Islam" (it is eeman of Muslims; not eeman of Islam) but eeman of Believers/Muslims. It is specific term "eeman"; faith in Allah.

[quote]
Quote:
Nevertheless, eeman as used in the Quran is still used in the strict and loose sense in other verses.
You need to get this loose sense out of your mind if you want to understand "eeman". Eeman is faith in Allah precisely. Every other sense, pillar, belief, faith is part of faith in Allah. Nothing else in eeman is remote from eeman in Allah.

Quote:
48:4 He it is Who sent down peace of reassurance into the hearts of the believers that they might add faith unto their faith. Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is ever Knower, Wise -
48:4 for example is used in the strict sense while others are used in the loose sense.
No. Each is in precise term. The former one is believing after seeing the proof and the latter further consolidation of believing and faith about Allah.

Quote:
45:20 for example is used in the loose sense.
45:20 This is clear indication for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy for a folk whose faith is sure.
How did you get to that conclusion from 45:20?
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is not the specific eeman "of Islam" (it is eeman of Muslims; not eeman of Islam) but eeman of Believers/Muslims. It is specific term "eeman"; faith in Allah.
I know eeman [faith] is faith of Muslims [believers].
But the eeman [faith] of Muslims is a specific element of Islam, thus specific eeman of Islam.
It simply means Muslims has eeman and eeman is specific to Islam i.e. in relation to the 6 pillars of eeman.

Whilst eeman is a specific term within Islam, this term eeman is used in the strict and loose term.

Quote:
You need to get this loose sense out of your mind if you want to understand "eeman". Eeman is faith in Allah precisely. Every other sense, pillar, belief, faith is part of faith in Allah. Nothing else in eeman is remote from eeman in Allah.
The point is Allah used the term eeman in the strict and loose sense.
What should I ignore this when Allah is doing it.
Eeman is Allah is correct but we cannot ignore the eeman in the strict sense in relation to the 6 pillars of eeman.

Note it is often and commonly stated a believer must have faith in God.
But what does that mean precisely?
To be precise we have to get into the details, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman in the case of Islam.

Quote:
No. Each is in precise term. The former one is believing after seeing the proof and the latter further consolidation of believing and faith about Allah.
To have faith is Allah is precise but not precise enough in terms of the details.

In 48:4 Allah stated a believer can add faith to faith, i.e. increase the faith in terms of strength, grades, degrees, ranks, and the likes. In this case, Allah intention is to speak of eeman [faith] in the more precise and strict form. To increase one's faith, one must refer to the details and mechanics, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.

Quote:
How did you get to that conclusion from 45:20?
45:20 exhort mankind [very general i.e. including non-Muslims] to have sure faith [eeman] in general.
This is a very general and loose statement to all humans without any reference to the specifics of the 6 pillars of eeman.

To exhort mankind to have sure faith is like exhorting mankind to be very good. This is a very general and loose statement without the details.
But what does it meant to be good and how?
To be good specifically, then one has to get into the details in the strict sense.

If I say ALL of mankind must be very healthy, that is a very general and loose statement.
To really progress to be seriously healthy in the strict sense, I must first define what is meant by 'healthy' in details with specifics and must establish the effective ways, means, approaches, etc. of how to achieve a state of sure healthiness.

Similarly, to have progressive faith [eeman] a Muslim must get into the details, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman in the strict sense. Without this details and dealing with eeman in the stricter sense, a Muslim will not be able to develop his eeman [strict] effectively.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
45:20 exhort mankind [very general i.e. including non-Muslims] to have sure faith [eeman] in general.
This is a very general and loose statement to all humans without any reference to the specifics of the 6 pillars of eeman.
That statement from you about the verse 45:20 of the Qur'an is your utter ignorance about this verse of the Qur'an. It just goes to show that, in your zeal to prove general or loose eeman exists in the Qur'an, you will do anything, even if it has no leg to stand on.

The verse doesn't even mention the word "eeman" or anything to do with "eeman".

You dropped another clanger here. Back to the drawing-board!
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That statement from you about the verse 45:20 of the Qur'an is your utter ignorance about this verse of the Qur'an. It just goes to show that, in your zeal to prove general or loose eeman exists in the Qur'an, you will do anything, even if it has no leg to stand on.

The verse doesn't even mention the word "eeman" or anything to do with "eeman".

You dropped another clanger here. Back to the drawing-board!
My purpose was to use an example to show how eeman is used in the loose sense.

I happened to pick 45:20 from a search using the term 'faith' from Pickthall's translation.

Note the some other translators mentioned as faith as well, e.g.

45:20
M. M. Pickthall
This is clear indication for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy for a folk whose faith is sure.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
These are clear evidences to men and a Guidance and Mercy to those of assured Faith.
Wahiduddin Khan
This [Book] brings enlightenment and guidance to mankind, and is a blessing for those who have firm faith.
The implication of 45:20 is they are sure of their faith or beliefs which will also lead to 'faith.'
Otherwise you tell me, what are they sure of re 45:20?

The term 'faith' is used 60 times in the Quran [Pickthall] and most of them refer to 'eeman.'
If you want to be stricter, there are so many other verses where 'eeman' is used in the loose sense and not with reference to the 6 pillars of eeman, e.g.

2:108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith [bil-īmāni بِالْإِيمَانِ ا م ن ], verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.
If you don't agree there are many other verses to choose from to show eeman as used in the loose form.

Eeman in 2:108 is definitely used in the loose sense and we don't know how "eeman" [faith] in the strict sense is dealt in Moses context.
But we know how eeman in the strict sense is dealt in the Quran recited to Muhammad as we can extract the 6 main pillars that are specific to eeman [faith] in the strict sense and a Muslim can work on it diligently to increase his/her degree and strength of eeman.
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