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Old 04-28-2016, 12:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
NO!
As I have listed 29:5-29 it is obvious the Quran identified the disbelievers as a separate group [them] from Muslims [us =good], and condemn the disbelievers [non-Muslims] is very derogatory terms.
Prove to me I am wrong on this?
It all began with disbelievers physically attacking the Muslim, expelling the Muslims from their homes and waging wars against them even when Muslims had moved away from them by at least 300 miles (several days' journey during those days).

Quote:
In addition, Allah deliberately create disbelievers [kuffar, infidels] by sealing their hearts and then torture them in Hell.
You are really weak in understanding the Qur'an!

Can you think where did all the initial Muslims in Mecca come from from? Why were their hearts and brains not sealed by Allah when they too were disbelievers? What's stopping you from taking this factor into account when reading these verses of the Qur'an?

Your heart too must be sealed lest you understand these verses!
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
49:13 O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another.
Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.
Yes, in general [loosely] all nations and tribes may come to know one another. Note it is only in general but not in reality.
The "reality" is stated in the verse by Allah. Anything other than that is a reality created by people like you.

Quote:
In reality, there are many who do not believe in Allah of the Quran, at least 4.5 billion, i.e. 75% at present and probably more than 90% when Muhammad started.
Another point is Allah deliberately created disbelievers by sealing their hearts and torture them in Hell.
No. You are exposing your ignorance about Allah not sealing their hearts and preparing paradise for them despite the Muslims too being disbelievers at the time of the first revelation of the Qur'an (96:1-5). Having their hearts open to understand the Qur'an or seal their hearts to not understand the Qur'an was and still is the individual choice. It was their own choice. Allah only helped them to do so as they wished in their freewill/trust/amanah (33:72). They chose to be in that condition so Allah just helped them to stay in that condition. Allah does not change any person's condition unless the person tries to change his condiion himself first (13:11).
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It all began with disbelievers physically attacking the Muslim, expelling the Muslims from their homes and waging wars against them even when Muslims had moved away from them by at least 300 miles (several days' journey during those days).
Note this OP, i.e. "us versus them."

My listing of 2:5-29 is to demonstrate there exist in the Quran the concept of "us versus them."

First:
Regardless of war or otherwise, do you admit the concept of "us versus them" exists in the Quran?

Second:
The reason why the concept of "us versus them" is because disbelievers are identified and condemned because they disbelieve Allah and his messenger right from day one when the first Quran-of-old was delivered to mankind.

You may disagree with the second point but you cannot deny the first.

Note my listing of 2:5-29 was merely a sample starting from the 2nd Chapter. There are 3,300++ such verses in the whole Quran. It is not practical for me to list them all. But if you have read the Quran with this point in mind, you will not missed.


Quote:
You are really weak in understanding the Qur'an!

Can you think where did all the initial Muslims in Mecca come from from? Why were their hearts and brains not sealed by Allah when they too were disbelievers? What's stopping you from taking this factor into account when reading these verses of the Qur'an?

Your heart too must be sealed lest you understand these verses!
[16:108] Such are they [infidels] whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed. And such are the heedless. [disbelievers - infidels]
I did not assert Allah sealed the hearts of all disbelievers.
16:108 implied Allah did seal the hearts of disbelievers in the context of 16:108.
I sense cruelty in such a verse and I bet you sense nothing at all except praise for your Allah.
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The "reality" is stated in the verse by Allah. Anything other than that is a reality created by people like you.

No. You are exposing your ignorance about Allah not sealing their hearts and preparing paradise for them despite the Muslims too being disbelievers at the time of the first revelation of the Qur'an (96:1-5). Having their hearts open to understand the Qur'an or seal their hearts to not understand the Qur'an was and still is the individual choice. It was their own choice. Allah only helped them to do so as they wished in their freewill/trust/amanah (33:72). They chose to be in that condition so Allah just helped them to stay in that condition. Allah does not change any person's condition unless the person tries to change his condiion himself first (13:11).
I can understand your desperation and ignoring the cruel acts of Allah when Allah sealed the hearts of disbelievers that prevent them from becoming believers, then torture them in hell with glee.
A wise God would never do such a cruel thing to disbelievers but rather help them to progress religiously or spiritually.

Note as explained above I did not assert nor 16:108 implied Allah sealed the hearts of ALL disbelievers.

Once sealed with Allah's all-powerful strength, it is not likely believers will have another chance.

Besides sealing the hearts of disbelievers for good, Allah also deliberate lead non-Muslims astray.
4:143 Swaying between this (and that), (belonging) neither to these nor to those. He whom Allah causeth to go astray, thou (O Muhammad) wilt not find a way for him:

6:39 Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.

6:125 And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.

7:178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

7:186 Those whom Allah sendeth astray, there is no guide for them. He leaveth them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.
There are many other such verses where Allah lead non-Muslims astray and then torture them in Hell with glee.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-28-2016 at 02:25 AM..
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:41 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I can understand your desperation and ignoring the cruel acts of Allah when Allah sealed the hearts of disbelievers that prevent them from becoming believers, then torture them in hell with glee.
A wise God would never do such a cruel thing to disbelievers but rather help them to progress religiously or spiritually.
You heart is still sealed. You can't understand that people like you chose not to believe. Once you chose not to believe, you have made your choice so your heart is sealed. Allah is not going to open it for you unless YOU try to open it first. There are many disbelievers even now who are opening their hearts for faith and Allah is helping them. You make the choice first and Allah only helps AFTER you make the choice. It's your choice to believe or not to believe.
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:17 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
First:
Regardless of war or otherwise, do you admit the concept of "us versus them" exists in the Quran?
I completely reject the notion that there is concept of "us versus them" in the Qur'an. Everyone begins from the same point with same favours from Alllah. It is each person himself carves his own way in this world. It is all a matter of "as you sow so shall you reap". Allah never changes someone's condition unless the person tries to change his own condition (13:11). This applies to all people. The same way, Allah does not take away any favour from man unless the man himself does something that makes him undeserving of that favour (8:53). This also applies to all people.

Therefore, there is no point in blaming Allah for any us versus them concept. All begin on the same footing and each gets what he strive for.

Quote:
Second:
The reason why the concept of "us versus them" is because disbelievers are identified and condemned because they disbelieve Allah and his messenger right from day one when the first Quran-of-old was delivered to mankind.
There was no Qur'an of old. The concept of changing your own condition existed from the outset of the mankind. As you sow so shall you reap has always been the rule.

Quote:
[16:108] Such are they [infidels] whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed. And such are the heedless. [disbelievers - infidels]
I did not assert Allah sealed the hearts of all disbelievers.
16:108 implied Allah did seal the hearts of disbelievers in the context of 16:108.
I sense cruelty in such a verse and I bet you sense nothing at all except praise for your Allah.
As the verse does not apply to me, I sense nothing cruel about it. It cannot be deemed cruelty to disbelievers because there will no such cruelty to them when they are quite sure that Allah does not exist. Why would anyone even mind about such verse when it is of no relevance to him?
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You heart is still sealed.
I don't give a damn on such a silly statement.
If you want me to believe, at least show some proofs and justifications.
The whole of the Quran and Islam rest solely on the existence of God.
So far there has been no convincing proofs to show God really exists.
Why should I believe in something that is non-existent.

I don't believe in God because there is no proofs God exists, but I can understand why theists believe in a God either strongly or casually. A theist strong believe in a God is due to some desperate psychology arising from the existential dilemma. Without a belief in God, the majority of theists will go more psychotic. They need a God [despite being illusory] to strengthen their psyche.

Quote:
You can't understand that people like you chose not to believe. Once you chose not to believe, you have made your choice so your heart is sealed. Allah is not going to open it for you unless YOU try to open it first. There are many disbelievers even now who are opening their hearts for faith and Allah is helping them. You make the choice first and Allah only helps AFTER you make the choice. It's your choice to believe or not to believe.
I do not need to believe in a God to deal with my existential dilemma. I have other means of spirituality [without malignant elements] to deal with the Existential Dilemma. I know the majority need a God to deal with the inherent unavoidable existential dilemma and it really works.

Whilst a belief in God really works and is effective for the majority of theists, the problem is the God associated with Islam unfortunately has baggage of evil laden elements [one is the "us versus them" -OP] which influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit REAL terrible evils and violence around the world. It is because of these real terrible evils and violence emanating from Islam [in part, not whole] that we [humanity] need to critique Islam and the Quran seriously, factually, objectively and justifiably.
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't give a damn on such a silly statement.
You definitely do or else you would not complain about God being cruel when sealing your heart towards His Guidance.
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Old 04-29-2016, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You definitely do or else you would not complain about God being cruel when sealing your heart towards His Guidance.
It does not matter to me personally because God do not exists as real in the first place.

What matter to me in this case of how such a statement on 'the sealing of hearts' influenced and impact on believers thus creating a "us versus them" situation and lead SOME Muslims with natural evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and indirectly effect me.
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Old 04-29-2016, 10:59 PM
 
4,416 posts, read 1,643,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It does not matter to me personally because God do not exists as real in the first place.

.
lol haha

yet you spend so much time and effort in digging through God's message?
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