U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-07-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,598,619 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not "our" focus but your focus. "Your" focus was not on believe, believing, beliefs and eeman (specific) within the subject of this forum but you were messing about with believe (loose), believing (loose), beliefs (loose) and faith (loose).

My focus was on specific believe (yuminoona), believing (yuminoo) and faith (eeman).
Your above is a straw man and missed my point.

I stated earlier;

Stage 1

1. Obvious all human beings think at the fundamental level. No issue here.
2. Believe is based on thinking.
3. At the next fundamental level all human beings believe based on thinking.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1] -wiki
Believe, i.e. believing is thinking of something ...
That something can be anything.
Therefore believing can be believing in anything, and in our discussion, it is about a God labelled 'Allah'.

Do you agree with Stage 1 of the above?
If not, why?


Stage 2
Once there is believe in the general sense, then we deal with believe in the strict and loose sense.

Khalif; My focus was on specific believe (yuminoona), believing (yuminoo) and faith (eeman).

Your specific is merely specific to Islam and not any other religion.
However within Islam and the Quran as specified, Allah used the various terms in the strict and loose sense.

When Allah refers to 'believers' in general without any reference to the 6 pillars of eeman in any way, that is in the general and loose sense of believe and believers.
When Allah refers to 'believers' in terms of adding faith to faith, degrees, grades, and rank, that is believe and faith in the strict sense with reference to the 6 pillars of eeman.

Do you agree?
If you do not agree, then why?


Quote:
And when you talk about believe (loose), believing (loose) and faith (loose) in this forum and do not talk really about believe (specific), believing (specific) and eeman (specific) in this forum, you produce garbage talk devoid of knowledge specific of Islam..
Can you show why it is garbage?

The point is when you do not refer to the strict and loose term of believe, believing, faith in the strict sense you are actually insulting Allah's words as in the Quran.

Quote:
Clearly "your" focus is on believe (loose) and you want to think that believe (specific) in the Qur'an is no different.
The use of the strict or loose senses, narrow vs wide, specific versus general are very common within any language. Why do not keep denying they are not used in the Quran by Allah when I have given you examples of their usage in the Quran.

Btw you have not disputed the examples I gave why they are not used in the strict and loose term.
All you stated in NO, NO, NO, and NO but you do not give justifications why this common use of strict and loose sense is wrong and not applicable in the Quran at all.

Quote:
In Islam, eeman in Allah is never in loose sense like believing (loose) of any human beieg but only specific all the time. That is why Islam is pure monotheism. If you do not understand this, think of when Muhammad had eeman for the first time after knowing nothing about it (mentioned in 42:52), and Muslims with him had eeman after knowing nothing about it. Was it just just loose believing or eeman (specific) in Allah?
Allah as monotheism in the Quran is VERY specific but when Allah refers to the subject of believing, believe, belief and faith [eeman] Allah is referring to the mental efforts of human beings which are comprised with a wide range of variables.

Quote:
Eeman in Allah includes 6 pillars, and 6 pillars are no more than eeman in Allah.
I must say this is a very unintelligent statement.
The fact is when eeman is refer to human beings, there is obvious difference between the mental state of the 1.5 billion Muslims as individual human being.

Quote:
When a person believes Allah and the message from Him, he has eeman. Before that, everything he believes is not eeman but believe (loose) that your focus is on.
I mentioned many times IN-GENERAL there is no way a small 6 years old Muslim will have the same degree of eeman [faith] in the strict sense as a Muslims who has practiced the 5 pillars of islam and the 6 pillars of eeman correctly and diligently for 40 years.
Do you dispute this point?

Quote:
Not in the words of the Qur'an that were precisely chosen by Allah.
Note these verses;
17:38 The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord.
In 17:38 Allah used the term 'hate' in the general sense.
40:35. Those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without any warrant that hath come unto them, it is greatly hateful in the sight of Allah and in the sight of those [Muslims] who believe. Thus doth Allah print on every arrogant, disdainful heart [of the infidels].


40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.
In 40:35 and 40:10 the term hate is used in the stricter sense with greater intensity. e.g. greatly hateful, abhorrence is more terrible.
It is this sort of intensity that are imbued into and influenced SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendency to hate infidels and therefrom commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-07-2016, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,598,619 times
Reputation: 461
Note I raised these points but you did not address them specifically [strictly] on why you disagree with this logical sequence;
Note the following sequences:
1st. All human beings think.

2nd. Believe [as defined above] is thinking of anything, God [s] etc.

3rd. Majority of Human beings believe [loose] in various types of God [s]. [loose sense]

4th. Muslims believe/eeman [loose] in Allah of the Quran [strict specific God] and submit [5 pillars of islam] with no specific focus on the 6 pillars of eeman.
Note the "believe" as this stage is still in the loose sense, it is only Allah that is in the specific sense.
Basically you failed to differentiate point.
Believing in a specific God, i.e. Allah do not imply believing in the strict sense in relation to eeman.

In respect of the term eeman, we need to distinguish between
1. eeman without the specific 6 pillars [general and loose] and
2. eeman with emphasis on working on the 6 pillars of eeman [strict sense].

5th When Muslims focus on 6 pillars of eeman then only then it is believe/eeman in the strict sense, i.e. believe in Allah of the Quran [a strict specific God]
Show me where I am wrong in the above sequence?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2016, 05:26 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your above is a straw man and missed my point.

I stated earlier;

Stage 1

1. Obvious all human beings think at the fundamental level. No issue here.
2. Believe is based on thinking.
3. At the next fundamental level all human beings believe based on thinking.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1] -wiki
Believe, i.e. believing is thinking of something ...
That something can be anything.
Therefore believing can be believing in anything, and in our discussion, it is about a God labelled 'Allah'.

Do you agree with Stage 1 of the above?
If not, why?


Stage 2
Once there is believe in the general sense, then we deal with believe in the strict and loose sense.

Khalif; My focus was on specific believe (yuminoona), believing (yuminoo) and faith (eeman).

Your specific is merely specific to Islam and not any other religion.
This IS Islam forum, isn't it? Why not focus on belief and believing specific to Islam in this forum?

Quote:
However within Islam and the Quran as specified, Allah used the various terms in the strict and loose sense.
That is your misunderstanding of the Qur'an despite reading the translations (fast) more than than 50 times. There is no mention of eeman in the Qur'an that is eeman in loose term. You either have eeman or no eeman.

Your argument about someone "having eeman" is similar to your argument about someone "having money". I say, "having money" is specific term. You either have money or do not have money. In your argument, having just 1 million is having money [loose] but having 6 million is having money [strict].

Quote:
When Allah refers to 'believers' in general without any reference to the 6 pillars of eeman in any way, that is in the general and loose sense of believe and believers.
When Allah refers to mu'mineen (believers) in the Qur'an, He refers to them without any reference to the all 6 pillars. 6 pillars are never mentioned together even in one verse of the Qur'an at the same time as mentioning the believers (mu'mineen).

Quote:
When Allah refers to 'believers' in terms of adding faith to faith, degrees, grades, and rank, that is believe and faith in the strict sense with reference to the 6 pillars of eeman.

Do you agree?
If you do not agree, then why?
Because, taking your argument into account, there couldn't have been mention of eeman [strict] until all the verses over the 22/23 years, in which are 6 pillars referred to, had been revealed and the mu'mineen made aware of the 6 pillars. Allah did not called "mu'mineen" because of their believing in 6 pillars but because of them believing (a) in Allah and (b) believing in His message. Anyone who believes in Allah and His message has eeman (specific).

Adding faith (2nd) in faith (1st) is adding eeman (2nd) in eeman (1st). What you can't understand, whilst you are stuck deep in a loose/strict sense hole, that the 1st is "eeman" and so is the 2nd; "eeman".

Quote:
Can you show why it is garbage?
It is not within the subject of this (Islam) forum but general believing of even infidels that has nothing to do with Allah and His message.

Quote:
The point is when you do not refer to the strict and loose term of believe, believing, faith in the strict sense you are actually insulting Allah's words as in the Quran.
You may believe (general and secular) so but I believe (specific) that Allah's words are specific and not in loose terms. It is you who are insulting Allah's words by regarding them in loose sense. The loose sense is of some humans; not of Allah.

Quote:
The use of the strict or loose senses, narrow vs wide, specific versus general are very common within any language. Why do not keep denying they are not used in the Quran by Allah when I have given you examples of their usage in the Quran.
Allah has never stated in the Qur'an which "eeman" is in loose term or in loose sense and which "eeman" is in strict term or in strict sense. In the Qur'an, it is in specific term every time in the Qur'an

Quote:
Btw you have not disputed the examples I gave why they are not used in the strict and loose term.
All you stated in NO, NO, NO, and NO but you do not give justifications why this common use of strict and loose sense is wrong and not applicable in the Qur'an.
I have disputed your entire believing that the Qur'anic term "eeman" is in loose term anywhere in the Qur'an. Therefore, I not only dispute but now utterly reject the notion that Allah used the term "eeman" in loose term anywhere in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Allah as monotheism in the Quran is VERY specific but when Allah refers to the subject of believing, believe, belief and faith [eeman] Allah is referring to the mental efforts of human beings which are comprised with a wide range of variables.
This is where you have utterly failed to answer my question about the verse 42:52 regarding Muhammad not knowing about eeman before the revelation of the Qur'an. Clearly it wasn't merey about mental effort of Muhammad but about having eeman in Allah and in His message. So at what stage of the revelation of the Qur'an did Muhammad come to know what eeman is?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2016, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,598,619 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This IS Islam forum, isn't it? Why not focus on belief and believing specific to Islam in this forum?
Note this OP is about believe and belief in general, i.e. "the belief engine" which is present in all human beings and that include Muslims.

My purpose is to reconcile this "belief engine" in all human beings to belief in Islam [Allah] by Muslims.

Therefore I'll asked again;
Stage 1
1. Obvious all human beings think at the fundamental level. No issue here.
2. Believe is based on thinking.
3. At the next fundamental level all human beings believe based on thinking.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1] -wiki

Believe, i.e. believing is thinking of something ...
That something can be anything.
Therefore believing can be believing in anything.
Muslims as human being believe in Allah, the specific God of Islam. [added]

Do you agree with Stage 1 of the above?
If not, why?
Quote:
That is your misunderstanding of the Qur'an despite reading the translations (fast) more than than 50 times.
'Fast' >50 times is a lie from you. I have read the Quran >50 times are various speeds. Generally as one read the Quran more times, one will be able to read it faster than a beginner.

Quote:
There is no mention of eeman in the Qur'an that is eeman in loose term.
Generally [except rarely] no author will specifically state a term is used in the state or loose sense. It would be crazy to do so, but the strict or loose [narrow or wider] is implied in the context. The smart reader will understand whether a well presented context is in the strict or loose sense.

Quote:
You either have eeman or no eeman.
Believe [eeman] is a very loose term.
Not sure if you understand this paradox of when a sand heap is a heap, but I throw it in anyway.
If you get it, you will understand why one can have eeman [loosely] and eeman [strict]
The sorites paradox (/soʊˈraɪtiːz/;[1] sometimes known as the paradox of the heap) is a paradox that arises from vague predicates.[2] A typical formulation involves a heap of sand, from which grains are individually removed. Under the assumption that removing a single grain does not turn a heap into a non-heap, the paradox is to consider what happens when the process is repeated enough times: is a single remaining grain still a heap? (Or are even no grains at all a heap?) If not, when did it change from a heap to a non-heap? -wiki
Quote:
Your argument about someone "having eeman" is similar to your argument about someone "having money". I say, "having money" is specific term. You either have money or do not have money. In your argument, having just 1 million is having money [loose] but having 6 million is having money [strict].
Wrong!! You did not understand my point of "having eeman" in this case at all.
I do not differentiate 1 million as loose and 6 million as strict

I say, "having money" is a loose and general term, i.e. you either have money [any currency] or no money [any currency] in this respective context.
In a stricter sense of money, then I will refer to [British Pounds] and not US Dollars, i.e. you have money specifically in [British Pounds].
In a more stricter sense, then I will refer to the amount of money, either 1 million and 6 million.
I do not differentiate 1 million as loose and 6 million as strict which is ridiculous in this case.

In another example;
If I say to some one in ever day conversation in UK, "you have money" that would be in the loose sense and the implication is the 'money' is in British Sterling or coins.
If I say to some one in ever day conversation in UK, "you have 1 million" or some specific amount of money, then that is in the stricter sense, because the subject is focus on the specific.

Quote:
When Allah refers to mu'mineen (believers) in the Qur'an, He refers to them without any reference to the all 6 pillars. 6 pillars are never mentioned together even in one verse of the Qur'an at the same time as mentioning the believers (mu'mineen).
This is why I say context is very critical.
All scholars will agree 'context' is critical. Even you will insist context is critical, don't you?
Therefore when any one with intelligence read the Quran, they will always bear in mind the context. This is how intelligent people abstracted the 6 pillars of eeman which Allah did not state specifically but implied in the context.
When one read the Quran it is full context, the 6 pillars of eeman together with progress as a Muslim, they all make sense without fail nor misrepresenting Allah's message.

Quote:
Because, taking your argument into account, there couldn't have been mention of eeman [strict] until all the verses over the 22/23 years, in which are 6 pillars referred to, had been revealed and the mu'mineen made aware of the 6 pillars. Allah did not called "mu'mineen" because of their believing in 6 pillars but because of them believing (a) in Allah and (b) believing in His message. Anyone who believes in Allah and His message has eeman (specific).
What is the relevance of 22/23 years as compared to 1,400 years.
There is no mentioned of eeman [strict] from Muhammad himself, but that strict eeman is already with Allah eternally and Allah would have conveyed its essence in the Qurans-of-old to the prophets-of-old before Muhammad.
Now that when all Muslims read the Quran, they are reading the 6,236 verses of the Quran and thus they have to take the full context of the Quran into account.

Quote:
Adding faith (2nd) in faith (1st) is adding eeman (2nd) in eeman (1st). What you can't understand, whilst you are stuck deep in a loose/strict sense hole, that the 1st is "eeman" and so is the 2nd; "eeman".
I have explained many times.
Believe is a mental state. [this is why this OP is important to understand believe fundamentally].
A mental state will vary within the individual and between different people.
It is like being drunk, or in a state of sleepiness, tiredness, alertness, and the likes where there are degrees of say drunken-ness which depend on how much alcohol was drank and the person's sensitiveness of alcohol and other factors.
Do you agree with this?

Quote:
It is not within the subject of this (Islam) forum but general believing of even infidels that has nothing to do with Allah and His message.
What??
Understanding believe and beliefs at the fundamental level is like knowing 1+1=2.
If you cannot agree this basis understanding then there will be confusion and mess which is the case in our discussion.

Quote:
You may believe (general and secular) so but I believe (specific) that Allah's words are specific and not in loose terms. It is you who are insulting Allah's words by regarding them in loose sense. The loose sense is of some humans; not of Allah.
The truth is critical.
What you are insisting is like 1+1=3 which I do not agree.
In the case of Islam, Allah conveyed his message in Arabic via Muhammad and it is very obvious the various terms in Arabic are used in the 'strict' and 'loose' sense.
You are insulting Allah's words when you do not recognize this fact.

Quote:
Allah has never stated in the Qur'an which "eeman" is in loose term or in loose sense and which "eeman" is in strict term or in strict sense. In the Qur'an, it is in specific term every time in the Qur'an.
I have explained this above.

Quote:
I have disputed your entire believing that the Qur'anic term "eeman" is in loose term anywhere in the Qur'an. Therefore, I not only dispute but now utterly reject the notion that Allah used the term "eeman" in loose term anywhere in the Qur'an.
Note this thread;
Eeman -Strict and Loose Sense
You have not presented any rational arguments to justify your point other than blatant denial.

[/quote]This is where you have utterly failed to answer my question about the verse 42:52 regarding Muhammad not knowing about eeman before the revelation of the Qur'an. Clearly it wasn't merey about mental effort of Muhammad but about having eeman in Allah and in His message. So at what stage of the revelation of the Qur'an did Muhammad come to know what eeman is?[/quote]I don't recall we have discussed 42:52. Where?
[indent]42:52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou [Muhammad] knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.[indent]

42:52 main purpose was to highlight that Muhammad was ignorant of the Quran and the full set of beliefs [faith] before the recitation of the Quran was triggered in him.
42:52 stated Muhammad did not "know" of the faith, in this case it would be more appropriate to refer to not knowing the whole set of beliefs, i.e. the religion.
42:52 did not state, Muhammad did not have 'faith' but that is obvious because he did not know.

In Muhammad's case, Muhammad did not even have 'eeman' [strict or loose] in Allah when Allah first appear to him in a vision. He was scared till he shivered with fears.
It is only after Khadijah and others soothed and convinced Muhammad that he slowly cultivated eeman [loose] in Allah at the beginning.
Since Muhammad is the chosen one, Allah would have expedited the process of eeman [strict] sense in Muhammad, i.e.
"42:52 ... We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command."
with the concepts of the 6 pillars later within the 22/23 years on hearing the Quran.

Therefore even with Muhammad's context there is eeman of strict and loose sense because there is no way Muhammad could have instant eeman in Allah when he was shivering with fears when Allah first appear in his visions*.

*re this vision of Allah, there was no real Allah appearing, but a psychological experience of altered states of consciousness that was experienced as with by many people where many are cured psychologically.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-08-2016 at 11:54 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2016, 03:49 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this OP is about believe and belief in general, i.e. "the belief engine" which is present in all human beings and that include Muslims.
That's what I meant. You are not talking here about believing in Allah, as in Islam specifically, but believing in anything in "general".

Quote:
My purpose is to reconcile this "belief engine" in all human beings to belief in Islam [Allah] by Muslims.
That would be trying to reconcile "belief" and "belief engine" of a Muslim with "belief" and "belief engine"of an infidel in this forum.

Quote:
Generally [except rarely] no author will specifically state a term is used in the state or loose sense. It would be crazy to do so, but the strict or loose [narrow or wider] is implied in the context. The smart reader will understand whether a well presented context is in the strict or loose sense.
Only the author knows what kind of term he has used and meant. A smart reader will not try to be the author and define the term that the author did not define as loose or strict. Such a smart reader would be too smart even for himself.

Quote:
Believe [eeman] is a very loose term.
"Believe" (think) is a very loose term. "Yuminoona bilghaybi" is specific term for having eeman.

Quote:
Not sure if you understand this paradox of when a sand heap is a heap, but I throw it in anyway.
If you get it, you will understand why one can have eeman [loosely] and eeman [strict]
The sorites paradox (/soʊˈraɪtiːz/;[1] sometimes known as the paradox of the heap) is a paradox that arises from vague predicates.[2] A typical formulation involves a heap of sand, from which grains are individually removed. Under the assumption that removing a single grain does not turn a heap into a non-heap, the paradox is to consider what happens when the process is repeated enough times: is a single remaining grain still a heap? (Or are even no grains at all a heap?) If not, when did it change from a heap to a non-heap? -wiki
You have just shot into your own toes. To you 5 grains of sand is not a heap but only 6 grains. In other words, for you, believing in just 5 pillars of faith is not eeman strict but only believing in 6 pillars is eeman strict.

Quote:
Wrong!! You did not understand my point of "having eeman" in this case at all.
I do not differentiate 1 million as loose and 6 million as strict
Of course you are if you think believing in 1 pillar of faith is not eeman but believing in only 6 pillars is eeman.

Quote:
In another example;
If I say to some one in ever day conversation in UK, "you have money" that would be in the loose sense and the implication is the 'money' is in British Sterling or coins.
If I say to some one in ever day conversation in UK, "you have 1 million" or some specific amount of money, then that is in the stricter sense, because the subject is focus on the specific.
Exactly!
Now do the same with eeman in this discussion in Islam forum that is specific and not general thinking or general believing.ż

Quote:
This is why I say context is very critical.
All scholars will agree 'context' is critical. Even you will insist context is critical, don't you?
Therefore when any one with intelligence read the Quran, they will always bear in mind the context. This is how intelligent people abstracted the 6 pillars of eeman which Allah did not state specifically but implied in the context.
When one read the Quran it is full context, the 6 pillars of eeman together with progress as a Muslim, they all make sense without fail nor misrepresenting Allah's message.
Then why aren't you "bearing in mind" (think) in terms of the context of the Qur'an and Islam when discussing eeman?

Quote:
What is the relevance of 22/23 years as compared to 1,400 years.
The Qur'an wasn't revealed in 1400 years but in 22/23 years. Mu'mineen were made aware of all the pillars of faith in the Qur'an in 22/23 years and not in 1400 years. Therefore, believing in each verse is eeman and these verses strengthened the mu'mineen in eeman each time more verses were revealed.

Quote:
There is no mentioned of eeman [strict] from Muhammad himself, but that strict eeman is already with Allah eternally and Allah would have conveyed its essence in the Qurans-of-old to the prophets-of-old before Muhammad.
Exactly!
It was believing in Allah and His message rather than only in 6 pillars in the Qur'an. Believing in each verse and each pillar is eeman.

Quote:
Now that when all Muslims read the Quran, they are reading the 6,236 verses of the Quran and thus they have to take the full context of the Quran into account.
And were getting strengthened in eeman as more verses were revealed. This is how Muslims get strengthened in eeman; by reading the verses, pondering over the verses and understanding the verses. Muslims do not get strenghened in eeman just by "general thinking" but by specifically understanding the Qur'an.

Quote:
I have explained many times.
Believe is a mental state. [this is why this OP is important to understand believe fundamentally].
A mental state will vary within the individual and between different people.
It is like being drunk, or in a state of sleepiness, tiredness, alertness, and the likes where there are degrees of say drunken-ness which depend on how much alcohol was drank and the person's sensitiveness of alcohol and other factors.
Do you agree with this?
In general term applying even to infidels, yes, but this does not mean drinking just a glass of wine is not drinking alcohol but drinking 6 bottles of wines is drinking alcohol.

Quote:
What??
Understanding believe and beliefs at the fundamental level is like knowing 1+1=2.
If you cannot agree this basis understanding then there will be confusion and mess which is the case in our discussion.
Understanding eeman is not as simple as 1+1=2 for infidels as well as many Muslims. You are talking about something very basic in thinking and not eeman.

Quote:
The truth is critical.
What you are insisting is like 1+1=3 which I do not agree.
In the case of Islam, Allah conveyed his message in Arabic via Muhammad and it is very obvious the various terms in Arabic are used in the 'strict' and 'loose' sense.
How do you know that about Arabic Qur'an when you do not even understand Arabic of the Qur'an?

Quote:
You are insulting Allah's words when you do not recognize this fact.
You keep repeating it like a parrot even though you do not even understand those words of Allah nor even recognize the words are of Allah.

This is where you have utterly failed to answer my question about the verse 42:52 regarding Muhammad not knowing about eeman before the revelation of the Qur'an. Clearly it wasn't merey about mental effort of Muhammad but about having eeman in Allah and in His message. So at what stage of the revelation of the Qur'an did Muhammad come to know what eeman is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
I don't recall we have discussed 42:52. Where?
The above was my question and the verse 42:52 mentioned clearly. You did not answer the Question relating to eeman mentioned in this verse.

Quote:
[indent]42:52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou [Muhammad] knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.[indent]

42:52 main purpose was to highlight that Muhammad was ignorant of the Quran and the full set of beliefs [faith] before the recitation of the Quran was triggered in him.
Then accept the same idea that eeman is "triggered" rather thsn "cultivated".

Quote:
42:52 stated Muhammad did not "know" of the faith, in this case it would be more appropriate to refer to not knowing the whole set of beliefs, i.e. the religion.
42:52 did not state, Muhammad did not have 'faith' but that is obvious because he did not know.

In Muhammad's case, Muhammad did not even have 'eeman' [strict or loose] in Allah when Allah first appear to him in a vision. He was scared till he shivered with fears.
It is only after Khadijah and others soothed and convinced Muhammad that he slowly cultivated eeman [loose] in Allah at the beginning.
This is denying that Muhammad did not know what eeman was and that Alllah made it light upon Muhammad through the verses of the Qur'an as is stated in the Qur'an 42:52.

It is silly to think that it was because of Khadijah that Muhammad had eeman and not because of the message from Allah. You are thinking too much in non-islamic loose terms here than in precise Islamic term that it was the message that he had believed to have eeman. You do not believe the same message, even if 1.5 billion Muslims sooth you and try to convince you like you claim that Khadijah did to Muhammad, therefore you do not have eeman. Someone's sooting does not make one have eeman but the spirit from Allah.

Quote:
Since Muhammad is the chosen one, Allah would have expedited the process of eeman [strict] sense in Muhammad, i.e.
"42:52 ... We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command."
with the concepts of the 6 pillars later within the 22/23 years on hearing the Quran.
Now you are beginning to understand where the eeman comes from; from the inspiration/spirit (ruh) in the verses of the Qur'an that were revealed over 22/23 years. That spirit of inspiration (ruh) was even in the first verses and therefore eeman cultivated from the outset when believing those verses. Today, all those verses are with us and, therefore, the spirit of inspiration is with us to have eeman precise.

Quote:
Therefore even with Muhammad's context there is eeman of strict and loose sense because there is no way Muhammad could have instant eeman in Allah when he was shivering with fears when Allah first appear in his visions*.
He had eeman once he understood that the message, "proclaim in the name of your Lord, who created" was from Allah. This was precise eeman in Allah. The rest was consolidation and strengthening of Muhammad's and of mu'mineens' eeman through the spirit in the verses from Allah..

Quote:
*re this vision of Allah, there was no real Allah appearing, but a psychological experience of altered states of consciousness that was experienced as with by many people where many are cured psychologically.
Then you too need to be cured of your psychological altered state of consciousness regarding loose and strict eeman.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2016, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,598,619 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's what I meant. You are not talking here about believing in Allah, as in Islam specifically, but believing in anything in "general".

That would be trying to reconcile
"belief" and "belief engine" of a Muslim with
"belief" and "belief engine" of an infidel in this forum.
My purpose is to prove to you that regardless of what humans believe, i.e. Muslims or non-Muslims believing in any thing, they are ALL using the same belief engine in the brain.

The "what-humans-believe" are different between individuals and groups BUT the 'how-humans-believe' i.e. the basic neural circuit in the brain is the same with ALL human beings.

Do you agree or disagree with the above?

Thus the "belief engine" i.e. 'how-humans-believe' of a Muslim is the same with the belief engine of the non-Muslim.
The reconciliation is both Muslims and non-Muslims has the same belief-engine.
The difference is only in what-they-believe.
Therefore I'll asked again;

Stage 1
1. Obvious all human beings think at the fundamental level. No issue here.
2. Believe is based on thinking.
3. At the next fundamental level all human beings believe based on thinking.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1] -wiki

Believe, i.e. believing is thinking of something ...
That something can be anything.
Therefore believing can be believing in anything.
Muslims has the same "belief engine" [how-humans-belief] as all human beings except what they believe is believe in Allah, the specific God of Islam. [added]

Do you agree with Stage 1 of the above?
If not, why? and which point you do not agree.
We need to establish consensus on the above before we can deal with the other points, otherwise there will be confusions like those in the rest of the other points in your latest responses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,598,619 times
Reputation: 461
Transfer to new Thread re 42:52

Last edited by Continuum; 05-09-2016 at 10:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top