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Old 05-04-2016, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I believe ALL Muslims must understand the human basis of belief, i.e. all humans has a 'Belief Engine' and Why We Believe 'What-We-Believe.'


Here is an article on Why We Believe 'What-We-Believe.'
https://www.xeromag.com/belief.html

Quote:
Why Belief Has Survival Values
Back in the day, when we rarely lived longer than 20 or 25 years and starvation battled with predation by large predators for the top spot in the list of "things that killed human beings," our brains gave us a competitive advantage. They did this in part by acting as engines of belief, allowing us to form models of the world and create beliefs about the world that gave us an edge.

For example, an early human who observed that if he was upwind of his prey, the prey got away, but if he was downwind of his prey, he could more easily kill it formed a belief: "Staying downwind from the prey makes it more likely that the prey will not escape."

Of course, other animals know these things instinctively. But the advantage of our big monkey brains is that we do not have to rely on instinct; we can form beliefs on the fly, as we go along, which means we can function in environments our instincts are not prepared to deal with.
The brain as an organ of survival allows us to make observations and draw beliefs from these observations, and these beliefs give us a competitive advantage.
Here is a Matrix on Why We Believe?

Having a brain optimized for forming beliefs is important if forming beliefs is your survival strategy. If you think of the brain as a belief engine, which can either believe something or disbelieve it, and if you think of a particular belief as being true or false, it is easy to construct a game theory matrix describing all the possibilities, with two success modes and two failure modes:



Ideally, our brains lead us to believe things that are true, such as "A large leopard is a dangerous adversary," and to disbelieve things that are not true, such as "I can eat rocks."
But there are two failure conditions as well:
  1. rejecting beliefs that are true, and
  2. accepting beliefs that are not.


Believing things that are true
Eating uncooked pork can make you sick
If you do not feed your pet dog, your dog will become unhappy, and eventually will die
Provoking a large predator may have serious consequences
Falling from a great height may have serious consequences
A speeding car can not stop instantly

Believing things that are not true
A pill can make your penis grow bigger
There is a sea monster living in a small landlocked lake in Scotland
Atlantis was a lost continent possessed of fabulous technology
Space aliens abduct people and perform experiments on them
Republicans favor small government; Democrats favor big government
There is an invisible man living in the sky who will punish you if you have sex in the wrong position


Not believing things that are true
The Holocaust never happened
Vaccination does not protect from disease
NASA never went to the moon
Evolutionary processes did not created the variety of life we can observe on this planet
Viruses and bacteria do not cause disease
The world is not more than six thousand years old
Americans are not obligated to pay income tax

Not believing things that are untrue
The world is not flat
You can not fly no matter how fast you flap your arms
There is no jolly fat man at the North Pole who hands out gifts
Money does not grow on trees
Forwarding an email to all your friends will not get Bill Gates to give you money
Solar eclipses are not caused by gigantic marauding dragons swallowing the sun

https://www.xeromag.com/belief.html

My points:
1. ALL humans has an inherent Belief Engine which drive humans to generate all sorts of beliefs which can be true and not-true to facilitate survival.
2. Based on 1, the term "believe" is a very loose term.
2. We need to differentiate "believe" between its strict and loose term and those in between.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Your brain gives you a reward for accepting beliefs, ..
https://www.xeromag.com/belief.html

What does this mean in practical terms?
Simple. It means that your brain has been hard-wired over hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection to make you gullible. Look at the brain as an instrument of survival, look at natural selection creating pressures to prefer the failure mode of believing that which isn't true over the failure mode of not believing that which is true, and you end up with people hard-wired from the ground up to be credulous and to accept new beliefs without question..

Your brain is a tool of survival that works by acting as an engine for creating beliefs.
When you form a belief, you get a little squirt of pleasure that lights up the reward circuit of your brain. You're emotionally rewarded every time you believe something.

At the same time, skepticism, and rational, analytical thought, do not come naturally. They're not what your brain was optimized for; because of that, they are skills which must be learned, and are not innate. In fact, they feel unnatural and uncomfortable to you. Your brain gives you a reward for accepting beliefs, not for challenging them.
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:51 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe ALL Muslims must understand...

Believing things that are not true
A pill can make your penis grow bigger
There is a sea monster living in a small landlocked lake in Scotland
Atlantis was a lost continent possessed of fabulous technology
Space aliens abduct people and perform experiments on them
Republicans favor small government; Democrats favor big government
There is an invisible man living in the sky who will punish you if you have sex in the wrong position
Non-muslims must understand...

Believing things that are not true
Faith can move mountains
Monkeys became men
Muhammad wrote the Qur'an
Muhammad used to have a bomb in his turban
Money is root of all evil
An idol is god
Allah wants Muslims to kill all non-muslim.
Homosexuality will lead to survival of human race
Drinking alcohol will make your problems go away
All those who say in a loud voice, "ALLAHU AKBAR", are terrorists
Muslims do not need believing for their Islam
Muslims believe in Allah for their survival in this world.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Non-muslims must understand...

Believing things that are not true
  1. Faith can move mountains
  2. Monkeys became men
  3. Muhammad wrote the Qur'an
  4. Muhammad used to have a bomb in his turban
  5. Money is root of all evil
  6. An idol is god
  7. Allah wants Muslims to kill all non-muslim.
  8. Homosexuality will lead to survival of human race
  9. Drinking alcohol will make your problems go away
  10. All those who say in a loud voice, "ALLAHU AKBAR", are terrorists
  11. Muslims do not need believing for their Islam
  12. Muslims believe in Allah for their survival in this world.
The examples given in the above link are to support the principles involved.

Note my main points, i.e.
1. ALL humans has an inherent Belief Engine which drive humans to generate all sorts of beliefs which can be true and not-true to facilitate survival.
2. Based on 1, the term "believe" is a very loose term.
2. We need to differentiate "believe" between its strict and loose term and those in between.

Your point
"Non-muslims must understand...[list] "
is too kindergartenish and some at really "stupid" i.e. lack intelligence.

What is needed with your list is to deliberate on each item as a separate OP or each general principles in the strict and loose sense in accordance to the various perspective.
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Old 05-05-2016, 12:55 AM
 
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This thread is not about Believing in Islam but believing outside Islam. As soon as I mentioned anything about Islam Úr anything even remotely believing within Islam you brought the shutters down. That is real stupidity!
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Old 05-05-2016, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This thread is not about Believing in Islam but believing outside Islam. As soon as I mentioned anything about Islam Úr anything even remotely believing within Islam you brought the shutters down. That is real stupidity!
Every time you mentioned 'stupidity' if reflect back on you.

Logically:
All humans beings engage in believing - a fundamental mental process.
All Muslims are human beings.
Therefore all Muslims engage in believing at the fundamental level.

Another one:
All humans beings has a belief engine [OP] a fundamental mental process.
All Muslims are human beings.
Therefore all Muslims has a belief engine [OP] a fundamental mental process.

There is no way you can dispute the above logic.

Therefore this thread is about Muslims believing in Islam at the fundamental level, unless you insists Muslims are not human beings like the rest of the 5.5 billion of other human beings.

What Muslims believe that is different from other human beings are merely the forms of things.
Muslims believed in the Quran specifically but generally they all believe [loosely] in a holy text from God like believers of other theistic religions.
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Old 05-05-2016, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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The Psychology of Belief [1 of 9 video]

This video [Part 1] explain why so many people believe in things and ideas so loosely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjMeUu2svM
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Old 05-07-2016, 01:06 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Every time you mentioned 'stupidity' if reflect back on you.
That's what I meant by you bringing the shutters down.

Quote:
Logically:
All humans beings engage in believing - a fundamental mental process.
Logically, not all human beings believe in Allah. Therefore not all human beings have eeman.

Quote:
All Muslims are human beings.
Therefore all Muslims engage in believing at the fundamental level.
Believing what? All human beings think at the fundamentsl level.

Quote:
Another one:
All humans beings has a belief engine [OP] a fundamental mental process.
All Muslims are human beings.
Therefore all Muslims has a belief engine [OP] a fundamental mental process.
All human beings have brain and they can think. All Muslims are human beings. Therefore all Muslims can think.; a mental process.

Quote:
There is no way you can dispute the above logic.
Even a little baby can think.

Quote:
Therefore this thread is about Muslims believing in Islam at the fundamental level, unless you insists Muslims are not human beings like the rest of the 5.5 billion of other human beings.
But the non-Muslims do not believe as the Muslims believe. Does that mean that they are not human beings?

Quote:
What Muslims believe that is different from other human beings are merely the forms of things.
Muslims believe in Allah and all messengers of Allah but the non-muslims do not believe in Allah and His messenger Muhammad.

Quote:
Muslims believed in the Quran specifically but generally they all believe [loosely] in a holy text from God like believers of other theistic religions.
Muslims believe in all revelations from Allah such as Zaboor, Taurat, Injeel and of course the Qur'an. It is believing in Allah and all the messages (any message from Allah) for human beings is called believing (precise) in Islam, and thus having eeman. The rest of believing is general, loose, secular and common believing as is thinking like any human being thinks.
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Old 05-07-2016, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Logically, not all human beings believe in Allah. Therefore not all human beings have eeman.
You are stating the obvious and wasting time.
Not all human beings believe in the Allah of the Quran just as not all human being believe in the Biblical God or the God of the Gita or God of other theistic religions.

Quote:
Believing what? All human beings think at the fundamental level.
This is why you are getting deceptive and messing 'thinking' with 'believe'.

1. Obvious all human beings think at the fundamental level. No issue here.
2. Believe is based on thinking.
3. At the next fundamental level all human beings believe based on thinking.

Believing what?
I have defined 'what is believe' before, here again;
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.[1] -wiki
Believe, i.e. believing is thinking of something ...
That something can be anything.
Therefore believing can be believing in anything, and in our discussion, about 'Allah'.

Quote:
All human beings have brain and they can think. All Muslims are human beings. Therefore all Muslims can think.; a mental process.

Even a little baby can think.
Our discussion is not about thinking but believe.
Therefore you are trying to change the main subject of discussion.
Our focus is on believe and understand what is believe, believing, beliefs and how it leads to faith or eeman.

Quote:
But the non-Muslims do not believe as the Muslims believe. Does that mean that they are not human beings?
This is rhetorical, deceptive and dumb.

1st. All human beings think.
2nd. Believe is thinking of anything.
3rd. As long as one is thinking and believing whatever [Islam or otherwise], one is always a human being.

Quote:
Muslims believe in Allah and all messengers of Allah but the non-muslims do not believe in Allah and His messenger Muhammad.
This is obvious. No need to state this unless you have a point to make.

Quote:
Muslims believe in all revelations from Allah such as Zaboor, Taurat, Injeel and of course the Qur'an.
It is believing in Allah and all the messages (any message from Allah) for human beings is called believing (precise) in Islam, and thus having eeman.
The rest of believing is general, loose, secular and common believing as is thinking like any human being thinks.
You are ignorant of the hierarchy of believing I stated in another post. Your logical and analytical thinking is very bad.
You mix and conflate all the elements and produce garbage conclusions.

Note the following sequences:
1st. All human beings think.

2nd. Believe [as defined above] is thinking of anything, God [s] etc.

3rd. Majority of Human beings believe [loose] in various types of God [s]. [loose sense]

4th. Muslims believe/eeman [loose] in Allah of the Quran [strict specific God] and submit [5 pillars of islam] with no specific focus on the 6 pillars of eeman.
Note the "believe" as this stage is still in the loose sense, it is only Allah that is in the specific sense.
Basically you failed to differentiate point.
Believing in a specific God, i.e. Allah do not imply believing in the strict sense in relation to eeman.

In respect of the term eeman, we need to distinguish between
1. eeman without the specific 6 pillars [general and loose] and
2. eeman with emphasis on working on the 6 pillars of eeman [strict sense].

5th When Muslims focus on 6 pillars of eeman then only then it is believe/eeman in the strict sense, i.e. believe in Allah of the Quran [a strict specific God]

It is critical you take into the strict and loose sense when presenting logical and rational propositions.
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Old 05-07-2016, 05:20 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are stating the obvious and wasting time.

This is why you are getting deceptive and messing 'thinking' with 'believe'.

Our focus is on believe and understand what is believe, believing, beliefs and how it leads to faith or eeman.
Not "our" focus but your focus. "Your" focus was not on believe, believing, beliefs and eeman (specific) within the subject of this forum but you were messing about with believe (loose), believing (loose), beliefs (loose) and faith (loose).

My focus was on specific believe (yuminoona), believing (yuminoo) and faith (eeman).

Quote:
You are ignorant of the hierarchy of believing I stated in another post.
Did you state 6 pillars in there?

Quote:
Your logical and analytical thinking is very bad.
You mix and conflate all the elements and produce garbage conclusions.
And when you talk about believe (loose), believing (loose) and faith (loose) in this forum and do not talk really about believe (specific), believing (specific) and eeman (specific) in this forum, you produce garbage talk devoid of knowledge specific of Islam..

Quote:
Note the following sequences:
1st. All human beings think.

2nd. Believe [as defined above] is thinking of anything, God [s] etc.

3rd. Majority of Human beings believe [loose] in various types of God [s]. [loose sense]

4th. Muslims believe/eeman [loose] in Allah of the Quran [strict specific God] and submit [5 pillars of islam] with no specific focus on the 6 pillars of eeman.
Clearly "your" focus is on believe (loose) and you want to think that believe (specific) in the Qur'an is no different.

Quote:
Note the "believe" as this stage is still in the loose sense, it is only Allah that is in the specific sense.
Basically you failed to differentiate point.
Believing in a specific God, i.e. Allah do not imply believing in the strict sense in relation to eeman.
In Islam, eeman in Allah is never in loose sense like believing (loose) of any human beieg but only specific all the time. That is why Islam is pure monotheism. If you do not understand this, think of when Muhammad had eeman for the first time after knowing nothing about it (mentioned in 42:52), and Muslims with him had eeman after knowing nothing about it. Was it just just loose believing or eeman (specific) in Allah?

Quote:
In respect of the term eeman, we need to distinguish between
1. eeman without the specific 6 pillars [general and loose] and
2. eeman with emphasis on working on the 6 pillars of eeman [strict sense].
Eeman in Allah includes 6 pillars, and 6 pillars are no more than eeman in Allah.

Quote:
5th When Muslims focus on 6 pillars of eeman then only then it is believe/eeman in the strict sense, i.e. believe in Allah of the Quran [a strict specific God]
When a person believes Allah and the message from Him, he has eeman. Before that, everything he believes is not eeman but believe (loose) that your focus is on.

Quote:
It is critical you take into the strict and loose sense when presenting logical and rational propositions.
Not in the words of the Qur'an that were precisely chosen by Allah.
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