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Old 05-13-2016, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Verses that are provided by all the positive abrogated verses have been canceled in the states of the sword and the most important of Surat Al-Baraa and reel The moust Muslim does not know the importance diffrent of the duplicator and copied
the "Verse of the Sword" is a non-Muslim concept not believed by Muslims. It is one of the most quoted lies about islam next to the idea that the Meccan Surat have been replaced by the Medina Surat.

You may want to look at Islamic sites to learn what Muslims actually believe.


Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/...5-sword-verse/

The American Muslim (TAM)

The Verse of the Sword
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Old 05-14-2016, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the "Verse of the Sword" is a non-Muslim concept not believed by Muslims. It is one of the most quoted lies about islam next to the idea that the Meccan Surat have been replaced by the Medina Surat.

You may want to look at Islamic sites to learn what Muslims actually believe.


Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/...5-sword-verse/

The American Muslim (TAM)

The Verse of the Sword
As usual you are VERY bias and perhaps as a Muslim you MUST be bias to ensure your faith works.

The "Verse of the Sword" is not a non-Muslim invention.
I read somewhere [need to find it again] the 'Verses of the Sword" is a phrase use in one of the Hadith.
Many Muslims used such the phrase "Verses of the Sword" e.g.
TAFSEER SURAH TAUBAH (1-14):
THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
by Shaikh Abdullah El Faisal
03.05.2012 (Evening Dars)
AUTHENTIC TAUHEED: -266- Tafseer Surah Taubah (Part 1)
Therefore your above claim is wrong and false.

80% of Muslims are moderate and are inclined toward the 'good' and thus they will make all sort of attempts to "blunt" the 'Verse of the Sword' with all sorts of arguments.

Point is no matter what arguments are presented by the 80% of moderates [the good], the 20% of evil prone Muslims will perceive the DUCK [in the Duck-Rabbit Scenario] where 9.5 and the related verses are Verses of the Sword. They will then commit terrible and violence based on Verses of the Sword in the sincere beliefs they are the words and intents of Allah.

Because there is no central authority in Islam, who on Earth can judge these 20% of evil prone Muslims are wrong in perceiving those verses as 'Verse[s] of the Sword' based on how they interpret the Quran and Allah's intentions.

The Verse of the Sword [9:5 and others] themselves are not the critical verses in influencing and inspiring those within the 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence. The fact is the Quran itself is awashed, soaked and imbued with an ethos of evils and violence directed against non-Muslims leveraged on three thousands ++ of evil laden verses of various degrees.
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As usual you are VERY bias and perhaps as a Muslim you MUST be bias to ensure your faith works.

The "Verse of the Sword" is not a non-Muslim invention.
I read somewhere [need to find it again] the 'Verses of the Sword" is a phrase use in one of the Hadith.
Many Muslims used such the phrase "Verses of the Sword" e.g.
TAFSEER SURAH TAUBAH (1-14):
THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
by Shaikh Abdullah El Faisal
03.05.2012 (Evening Dars)
AUTHENTIC TAUHEED: -266- Tafseer Surah Taubah (Part 1)
Therefore your above claim is wrong and false.

80% of Muslims are moderate and are inclined toward the 'good' and thus they will make all sort of attempts to "blunt" the 'Verse of the Sword' with all sorts of arguments.

Point is no matter what arguments are presented by the 80% of moderates [the good], the 20% of evil prone Muslims will perceive the DUCK [in the Duck-Rabbit Scenario] where 9.5 and the related verses are Verses of the Sword. They will then commit terrible and violence based on Verses of the Sword in the sincere beliefs they are the words and intents of Allah.

Because there is no central authority in Islam, who on Earth can judge these 20% of evil prone Muslims are wrong in perceiving those verses as 'Verse[s] of the Sword' based on how they interpret the Quran and Allah's intentions.

The Verse of the Sword [9:5 and others] themselves are not the critical verses in influencing and inspiring those within the 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence. The fact is the Quran itself is awashed, soaked and imbued with an ethos of evils and violence directed against non-Muslims leveraged on three thousands ++ of evil laden verses of various degrees.
I believe that the reason Shaikh Abdullah El Faisal ia using the term "Verse of the Sword" is because he typically addresses non-Muslims and recent reverts. His site is Salafi (Salaff-us-Saleh) and is quite radical and does try to attract radical non-Muslims and recent reverts.

From the site AUTHENTIC TAUHEED: -266- Tafseer Surah Taubah (Part 1)

Their Heading




They are not representative of most Muslims although like Wahhabi Salafi'ism is spreading and although they are a Wahhabi sect they profess to be Sunni.
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Old 05-14-2016, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe that the reason Shaikh Abdullah El Faisal ia using the term "Verse of the Sword" is because he typically addresses non-Muslims and recent reverts. His site is Salafi (Salaff-us-Saleh) and is quite radical and does try to attract radical non-Muslims and recent reverts.

From the site AUTHENTIC TAUHEED: -266- Tafseer Surah Taubah (Part 1)

Their Heading
...
They are not representative of most Muslims although like Wahhabi Salafi'ism is spreading and although they are a Wahhabi sect they profess to be Sunni.
The point is such teachings are popular and a reality within the Islamic community but my main point was to counter your false view, i.e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the "Verse of the Sword" is a non-Muslim concept not believed by Muslims. It is one of the most quoted lies about islam next to the idea that the Meccan Surat have been replaced by the Medina Surat.
You stated:
"he Verse of the Sword" is a non-Muslim concept not believed by Muslims.
which is obviously false and a serious accusation without justifications against non-Muslims as liars.

You must accept the reality there is no one on Earth who can decide & judge these Muslims, Salafi, etc. are wrong in their interpretation of the Quran.
It is most likely they are truer Muslims [more literal with the Quran] than the moderates who do not subscribe the majority of the words of Allah in the Quran.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
60:8-9 is overriding maxim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
This is where you expose your lack of understanding of the overall context of the Qur'an. Your comment is not based on overall context of the Qur'an.
[60:8-9] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
These verses are part of the overall context of the Qur'an.
It is unfortunate you are not well versed with the Philosophy of Morality & Ethic and thus do not understand what is a Maxim.

I have given you some idea of how Morality should work effectively as below;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am not sure if you have ever worked in a large well reputable organization.
If you are well aware of the very good management of such companies you will note their effective management is driven by super vision and mission, e.g. Zero-defect in production, and the likes.
In general high achievers always strive for the highest ideals but they know this perfect ideals are merely guides and lighthouses to steer them to improve on whatever is the current positions.
It is well understood ideals are set not to be achieved but merely as guides.
The above is applicable in every aspects of advance knowledge, e.g. Mathematics, Geometry, etc. Show me a absolute perfect triangle [possible in theory] in the practical world.

Similarly in Morality, there is a need for Moral Maxims to act as guides.
It is expected that Moral Maxims will not be achieved in practice.
Despite its impossibility it is imperative Moral Maxims must be set.
Note a Moral Maxim is not a Practical Moral Standard to be implemented in practice.
Btw, the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics is one of my forte. I have spent years researching on it.
You want to challenge me on this subject, you are welcomed to discuss this in the Philosophy Forum section.

Killing is the worst evil within humanity.
This is why it is so critical to set the Moral Maxim,
'Thou Shalt not Kill' [Period!!
-absolutely no ifs or buts].
If I am God I will set that Imperative Moral Maxim with no 'ifs' nor 'buts.'
Now if any believer kill for whatever the reasons, then I will judge them on J-Day.
If they have good reasons to do so, e.g. self-defense, crime of passion, accidental, and not premeditated, then I as God will forgive them totally or punished them accordingly.
If the believers kill immorally, i.e. premeditated murder, consciously aware of the moral maxim, and the likes, then I will send them to hell to be burnt eternally as promised in my holy text.
Thus setting of an absolute Moral Maxim is more effective than allowing 'ifs' and 'buts' that leave room of ambiguity for the naturally evil prone believers to think otherwise.

The fact that Allah of Islam did not set an Absolute Moral Maxim in the Quran show that Allah is not very wise in this aspect of setting moral standards.
By setting a conditional ethical standard on killing with "ifs" and "buts" that open the hell hole for SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence when they take it upon their duty as a good Muslims to kill non-believers.
Worse Allah have not and cannot appear to judge whether they are right or wrong, thus these SOME evil prone Muslims will continue to be influenced by the evil laden verses till eternity.
From the above it is obvious 60:8-9 cannot be an overriding Maxim because it is conditional [IF] upon certain conditions, i.e.
Be kind to non-Muslims ONLY IF upon the following condition;
[60:8-9 part] ... those [Muslim] who warred not against you - on account of religion [alddeeni] and drove you not out from your homes, ...
.

Because of the 'ONLY IF' in 60:8-9 it cannot be an absolute moral maxim.

Note:
60:8-9 will be a Moral Maxim, if 60:8-9 commanded;
"ALL Muslims must be kind and just to ALL non-Muslims" Period!!

If any Muslim do not comply to the above Maxim, then it is up to that Muslim alone [as the Quran said] to face Allah's judgment [Allah know everything] on J-Day.

That is how proper effective Morality should be.
If there is a the slightest positive attitude to non-Muslims within the Quran it is always conditional and thus leave room for evil prone Muslims to ignore it or are blind to it.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-19-2016 at 09:15 PM..
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
For those [not Khalif] who adopt the Ahadith,
60:8-9 has an applicable context.
Therefore those who has integrity and insist on context, they must take the context into consideration.

Quote:
Qur'an 60:8
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Meaning and context of verse

According to the tafsir and hadith, this verse was revealed in the context of Abu Bakr's daughter, who refused to let her mother in the house because she was a disbeliever.
As Muslims often scream about context (usually when faced with the more violent qur'anic verses), some would say because it was revealed in the context of disbelieving mothers, then it only applies in that context.
Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Zubayr said, "Qutaylah came visiting her daughter, Asma' bint Abi Bakr, with some gifts, such as Dibab, cheese and clarified (cooking) butter, and she was an idolatress at that time. Asma' refused to accept her mother's gifts and did not let her enter her house. `A'ishah asked the Prophet about his verdict and Allah sent down the Ayah
Hadith of Imam Ahmed, Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Link
Due to the context, 60:8-9 cannot be an overriding Maxim.

The fact is there are no verses that represent any overriding Maxim that exhort all Muslims to be kind and just to non-Muslims under all conditions.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:44 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,470 times
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Wahhabism and Alsgayh
The term does not exceed an interview Amra 200 years of age Islam
But states are fighting the roots of the Koran 1400 years ago
In every age and time they show different labels
Including pilgrims son Yusuf
Who used the Federated States of fighting in wars
The Turks also Algtmaon
The Umayyad
And then verses of combat, including the state of the sword are driven Islamic history
The victory is always to those who raise these verses because he
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Old 07-20-2016, 06:39 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Contin uum View Post
From the above it is obvious 60:8-9 cannot be an overriding Maxim because it is conditional [IF] upon certain conditions, i.e.
Be kind to non-Muslims ONLY IF upon the following condition;
[60:8-9 part] ... those [Muslim] who warred not against you - on account of religion [alddeeni] and drove you not out from your homes, ...
.
It would be stupid Moral Maxim if it was unconditional such as:

Be always kind to non-Muslims even if they wage war against you, expel you from your home, bomb you in your country, drive trucks through Muslim crowd in a mosque and kill you in thousands. You just stay there like stupid little sitting ducks to be slaughtered by the non-Muslims.

What kind of Moral Maxim is that?

Quote:
Because of the 'ONLY IF' in 60:8-9 it cannot be an absolute moral maxim.
This is the only absolute Moral Maxim as it will deter wars and killings in the first place.

Quote:
Note:
60:8-9 will be a Moral Maxim, if 60:8-9 commanded;
"ALL Muslims must be kind and just to ALL non-Muslims" Period!!
That can't be even Moral; never mind Moral Maxim. It would be utter injustice if one is told not to kill even if a non-Muslim is certainly going to kill you. This kind of Moral Maxim would be inviting certain deaths of Muslims rather than preventing death. That would be injustice leading to certain deaths whilst such unjust Moral Maxim ties the hands of the victim behind his back unable to even defend himself.

Quote:
If there is a the slightest positive attitude to non-Muslims within the Quran it is always conditional and thus leave room for evil prone Muslims to ignore it or are blind to it.
Muslim is not to disbelieve any verse of the Qur'an. If he does, there is no difference between such a Muslim and a Kafir when it comes to disbelieving a verse of the Qur'an.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:52 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point is that article claimed there are 200 verses that indicated compassionate living as if Allah in the Quran is compassionate to non-Muslims as well.

I suggest you read the articles and the verses that are highlighted, you will note Allah is MOSTLY compassionate to believers and Muslims ONLY and VERY RARELY extend any compassion to non-Muslims unconditionally as human beings.
Allah is equally compassionate to both Muslims and non-Muslims in this world. Allah has not denied non-Muslims any favors that He has bestowed upon Muslims in this life. The only difference in compassion and thanks from the other side are from the non-Muslims who take things for granted or think that it is because of their own brain and intelligence, which they think is their own creation rather than given to them by God. They do not give thanks to God yet complain that He is not compassionate to them as He is to Muslims as if Muslims were given 4 eyes and non-Muslims only 2.

Any compassion to Muslims in terms of the hereafter is also conditional on obeying Him. This conditional compassion is not denied (is offered) to non-Muslims too but they want such compassion to be unconditional perhaps because they are better looking than Muslims..

Quote:
Show me 10 verses where Allah is kind and compassionate to non-Muslims as specifically mentioned as in 60:8 without conditions.
God has been compassionate to mankind (including non-Muslims) that He granted you existence. You did nothing to deserve existence. This is the biggest favor from God to even non-Muslims. Least you can do is give thanks to God for it.

The only unconditional compassion to ALL equally is in bringing them ALL into existence. Other than that there is no unconditional compassion to anyone. Compassion even to Muslims is conditional on Muslims doing something. I can't think of why any non-Muslim would be looking for further unconditional compassion from God without doing anything to deserve it?

Quote:
Btw, there are 3,400 verses where infidels are identified and condemned in the most derogatory terms.
The verses are from God. All such verses were the result of what such infidels did on top of rejecting their Creator. They had become enemies of their own Creator. Why should they complain about being condemned by their Creator?
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Old 07-20-2016, 08:58 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For those [not Khalif] who adopt the Ahadith,
60:8-9 has an applicable context.
Therefore those who has integrity and insist on context, they must take the context into consideration.

Due to the context, 60:8-9 cannot be an overriding Maxim.

The fact is there are no verses that represent any overriding Maxim that exhort all Muslims to be kind and just to non-Muslims under all conditions.
Hadith is not the context of 60:8-9 but 60:1-2.

[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

[60.2] If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve.

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of
(your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of
(your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Clearly these verses are of the time after the Hijrah and reflecting on kuffar who had expelled the messenger and Muslims from their homes in Mecca and were still stretching their hands against the Muslims. The verses are rightly condemning such kuffar who had waged war against those Muslims. The rest of the non-Muslims are to be treated kindly. Ignore or disbelieve this and you ignore or disbelieve the Qur'an.
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