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Clearly these verses are of the time after the Hijrah and reflecting on kuffar who had expelled the messenger and Muslims from their homes in Mecca and were still stretching their hands against the Muslims. The verses are rightly condemning such kuffar who had waged war against those Muslims. The rest of the non-Muslims are to be treated kindly. Ignore or disbelieve this and you ignore or disbelieve the Qur'an.
When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5))
That is very much what God pairing between prayer and zakat, came in the correct Ibn Umar - God bless them - that the Messenger of Allah - peace be upon him - he said: ordered to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and establish prayer, and pay zakat talk.
he said: ordered to fight the people ----It is to fight the people and not only the Quraish
All people
When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5))
That is very much what God pairing between prayer and zakat, came in the correct Ibn Umar - God bless them - that the Messenger of Allah - peace be upon him - he said: ordered to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and establish prayer, and pay zakat talk.
he said: ordered to fight the people ----It is to fight the people and not only the Quraish
All people
"Then if they repent"... Why would ALL people repent? It's the Mushrikeen people who had to repent because they were the ones who had waged wars on Muslims because of their Deen.
My point is that article claimed there are 200 verses that indicated compassionate living as if Allah in the Quran is compassionate to non-Muslims as well.
I suggest you read the articles and the verses that are highlighted, you will note Allah is MOSTLY compassionate to believers and Muslims ONLY and VERY RARELY extend any compassion to non-Muslims unconditionally as human beings.
Show me 10 verses where Allah is kind and compassionate to non-Muslims as specifically mentioned as in 60:8 without conditions.
Btw, there are 3,400 verses where infidels are identified and condemned in the most derogatory terms.
What's the count of verses in the Bible condemning, killing, or any derogatory intent towards non-believers? I'm assuming you have some sort of control group, some sort of base line for your comparison if you are trying to be objective.
It would be stupid Moral Maxim if it was unconditional such as:
Be always kind to non-Muslims even if they wage war against you, expel you from your home, bomb you in your country, drive trucks through Muslim crowd in a mosque and kill you in thousands. You just stay there like stupid little sitting ducks to be slaughtered by the non-Muslims.
What kind of Moral Maxim is that?
Your views are stupid to call what I proposed as 'stupid Moral Maxim"
You are putting words and concept into my mouth.
Note when you put the phrase "even if" into the above, then it cannot be an Absolute Moral Maxim.
The "even if" make the whole thing conditional in the other sense.
If your proposal is to be an Absolute Moral Maxim, then it should be phrased as;
Be kind to non-Muslims always." [Period, not ifs, nut, even ifs, etc.].
Now if any one non-Muslims or even Muslims wage war against you, expel you from your home, bomb you in your country, drive trucks through Muslim crowd in a mosque and kill you in thousands, then you do what is necessary and morally as a human being.
As I had stated it is a natural instinct for humans to defend themselves in whatever ways that is morally possible.
In this case it is for God to judge the acts of self-defense, etc. on Judgment Day accordingly. If one has acted sincerely and morally then one will not be punished and sent to Hell.
On the other hand, if God were to include any 'IF' then that is open to abuse.
This is the problem with the Quran which permit Muslims to kill non-Muslims IF Islam or Muslims are threatened, wronged and/or make mischiefs, etc.
What happened in reality is SOME Muslims interpret the drawing of cartoons as a threat and wronged so they kill non-Muslims with the sincere belief they are acting out their duty as a good Muslim in the cause of Allah.
IF Allah in the Quran issue the command 'Thou Shalt Not Killed' [Period, not ifs and not buts] then since the drawing of cartoons bring no real physical threat to Muslims lives, Muslims will have to think many times before they kill any one.
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This is the only absolute Moral Maxim as it will deter wars and killings in the first place.
When there in an "IF" it is open for abuse or wrong interpretations.
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That can't be even Moral; never mind Moral Maxim. It would be utter injustice if one is told not to kill even if a non-Muslim is certainly going to kill you. This kind of Moral Maxim would be inviting certain deaths of Muslims rather than preventing death. That would be injustice leading to certain deaths whilst such unjust Moral Maxim ties the hands of the victim behind his back unable to even defend himself.
Note my explanation above on why I suggest;
60:8-9 will be a Moral Maxim, if 60:8-9 commanded;
"ALL Muslims must be kind and just to ALL non-Muslims" Period!!
Note the above is based on the Principles from the Philosophy of Morality & Ethics that I am very well verse with. In this subject I have reviewed all the various fields of Morality and what I have suggested above is the most optimal for humanity.
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Muslim is not to disbelieve any verse of the Qur'an. If he does, there is no difference between such a Muslim and a Kafir when it comes to disbelieving a verse of the Qur'an.
The fact is there are terrible evils and violence which traced to the evil laden elements in the Quran.
There are lots of evil laden elements in the Quran [influenced the Ahadith] and this must be addressed in the best possible ways to ensure no evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired by them to commit the terrible evils and violence that is going on at present and since 1,400 years ago.
Humanity [Muslim and non-Muslims] must first acknowledge this fact before the problem can be solved effectively.
How to solve? Humanity must think hard on this for the solution.
What's the count of verses in the Bible condemning, killing, or any derogatory intent towards non-believers? I'm assuming you have some sort of control group, some sort of base line for your comparison if you are trying to be objective.
First we need to differentiate the NT [Christianity's] from the OT [Judaism]
There are more evil laden verses in the Old testaments than the Quran.
But somehow the present Jews are not influenced by these evil laden elements to commit continual evil acts like what the evil prone Muslims are doing at present.
The NT also contain evil elements [bullets] but they are not evil laden elements [bullets loaded into gun with pulled triggers].
The critical difference with the Christianity and the NT is the NT has overriding absolute moral maxims to restraint Christians from committing evil in the name of Jesus, e.g. 'Thou shall not kill,' 'Love their enemies' and love this & that all over the NT.
The Quran and Islam is different, where there is no absolute overriding moral maxim to restraint evil prone Muslims from fighting and killing non-Muslims.
The Quran and Islam permit Muslims to fight and kill if there are conditions and reasons to do so. These "ifs" conditions are very vague. This is why SOME evil prone Muslims will even kill upon the sight or hearing the news of non-Muslims drawing the cartoons of Prophet Muhammad.
Allah is equally compassionate to both Muslims and non-Muslims in this world. Allah has not denied non-Muslims any favors that He has bestowed upon Muslims in this life. The only difference in compassion and thanks from the other side are from the non-Muslims who take things for granted or think that it is because of their own brain and intelligence, which they think is their own creation rather than given to them by God. They do not give thanks to God yet complain that He is not compassionate to them as He is to Muslims as if Muslims were given 4 eyes and non-Muslims only 2.
Any compassion to Muslims in terms of the hereafter is also conditional on obeying Him. This conditional compassion is not denied (is offered) to non-Muslims too but they want such compassion to be unconditional perhaps because they are better looking than Muslims..
God has been compassionate to mankind (including non-Muslims) that He granted you existence. You did nothing to deserve existence. This is the biggest favor from God to even non-Muslims. Least you can do is give thanks to God for it.
The only unconditional compassion to ALL equally is in bringing them ALL into existence. Other than that there is no unconditional compassion to anyone. Compassion even to Muslims is conditional on Muslims doing something. I can't think of why any non-Muslim would be looking for further unconditional compassion from God without doing anything to deserve it?
The verses are from God. All such verses were the result of what such infidels did on top of rejecting their Creator. They had become enemies of their own Creator. Why should they complain about being condemned by their Creator?
"Enemies of Allah" that is one of the 3,400 evil laden elements in the Quran that prompt SOME evil prone Muslims to kill non-Muslims when Allah labeled them as enemies for no good reasons other than no believing in Allah.
The point is believers [especially SOME] are at the most critical mercy of Allah to SAVE them for eternal hell and thus their emotional reliance and devotion and reverence to ALLAH is VERY STRONG where they will do whatever it takes for the cause of Allah.
When Allah labelled any one as 'enemy' this will prompt the very devotional evil prone to kill these 'enemies' at the slightest triggers. This is what happened with Muslims killing those who draw the cartoons or are associated with it.
With such acts of labelling others as 'enemies' for merely not believing that led to their being killed by SOME Muslims is a very irresponsible act of Allah of the Quran. As such Allah cannot be compassionate and merciful.
The labelling of non-believers as enemies is not the only evil laden act of Allah, Allah dehumanize non-Muslims in many other instances with the most derogatory terms as if non-Muslims are pieces of sh;t, then there are evil laden verses that lead SOME Muslims to fight and kill non-Muslims.
My above arguments are supported by real proofs of terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements.
As a result of the terrible consequences of Allah's words, Allah cannot be compassionate and merciful.
A God if exists would never introduce verses with loads of evil laden elements.
Therefore the Quran must be authored by a human or a group of people and not a so-claimed merciful and compassionate God.
[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messengerand yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.
[60.2] If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve.
[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
Clearly these verses are of the time after the Hijrah and reflecting on kuffar who had expelled the messenger and Muslims from their homes in Mecca and were still stretching their hands against the Muslims. The verses are rightly condemning such kuffar who had waged war against those Muslims. The rest of the non-Muslims are to be treated kindly. Ignore or disbelieve this and you ignore or disbelieve the Qur'an.
The Ahadith [not applicable to you] makes sense from the Ahadith-box. So it is not up to you to change what the Ahadith has presented.
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Meaning and context of verse
According to the tafsir and hadith, this verse was revealed in the context of Abu Bakr's daughter, who refused to let her mother in the house because she was a disbeliever.
As Muslims often scream about context (usually when faced with the more violent qur'anic verses), some would say because it was revealed in the context of disbelieving mothers, then it only applies in that context.
Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Zubayr said, "Qutaylah came visiting her daughter, Asma' bint Abi Bakr, with some gifts, such as Dibab, cheese and clarified (cooking) butter, and she was an idolatress at that time. Asma' refused to accept her mother's gifts and did not let her enter her house. `A'ishah asked the Prophet about his verdict and Allah sent down the Ayah
Hadith of Imam Ahmed, Tafsir Ibn Kathir
In this case those [not you] who adopt the Ahadith as having divine authority cannot claim 60:8 to be an overriding absolute moral maxim.
With reference to your claim I have countered it without any reference to the Ahadith.
It would be stupid Moral Maxim if it was unconditional such as:
Be always kind to non-Muslims even if they wage war against you, expel you from your home, bomb you in your country, drive trucks through Muslim crowd in a mosque and kill you in thousands. You just stay there like stupid little sitting ducks to be slaughtered by the non-Muslims.
What kind of Moral Maxim is that?
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Originally Posted by Continuum
Your views are stupid to call what I proposed as 'stupid Moral Maxim"
You are putting words and concept into my mouth.
I am not putting words into your mouth, you are clearly proposing so.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
Note when you put the phrase "even if" into the above, then it cannot be an Absolute Moral Maxim.
Exactly! When you say "unconditional" it means unconditional "even if".
That's what is meant by "unconditional". I have exposed a big hole in your argument. "Absolute Moral Maxim" does not work in reality as it would be totally unfair and make people sitting ducks for the criminals.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
If your proposal is to be an Absolute Moral Maxim, then it should be phrased as;
Be kind to non-Muslims always." [Period, not ifs, nut, even ifs, etc.].
That would force Muslims to be kind to non-Muslims when the non-Muslims would be waging wars on Muslims. That can't be Moral, would it? Where is justice in that?
The point to note is that "Absolute Moral Maxim" is justified ONLY in time of peace. It cannot be just and moral at ALL times. Islam has taken this reality into account in 60:8-9.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
Now if any one non-Muslims or even Muslims wage war against you, expel you from your home, bomb you in your country, drive trucks through Muslim crowd in a mosque and kill you in thousands, then you do what is necessary and morally as a human being.
And that's what is proposed in the combined verses of the Qur'an (including 60:8-9). The point in your argument against the Qur'an has been excluding the 60:8-9.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
As I had stated it is a natural instinct for humans to defend themselves in whatever ways that is morally possible.
Then defending in the Qur'an is morally correct.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
In this case it is for God to judge the acts of self-defense, etc. on Judgment Day accordingly. If one has acted sincerely and morally then one will not be punished and sent to Hell.
There would be no justice in this world if one couldn't defend because of your "Absolute Moral Maxim". America does not accept this Absolute Moral Maxim nor does Britain, France, Israel, Australia, China, Russia or any other country in the world. Why do you even propose such unfair and unilateral Absolute Moral Maxim should have been in the Qur'an?
Your objection about 'ifs' and 'buts' is unjustified as it takes away justice in this world and thus makes such Absolute Moral Maxim unworkable and thus effectively stupid.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
On the other hand, if God were to include any 'IF' then that is open to abuse.
No. It sets LIMIT beyond one can't go. Limits are set so that something can't be abused.
Setting limits are for the purpose of reducing abuse. The point you are ignorant about in your arguments about abuse is that if someone wants to abuse something he will do it anyway. Even limits and Absolute Moral Maxim can be abused by such people when disregarding them. This is why "do not kill" in OT hasn't stopped killings at any time since the Ten Commandments were given.
Therefore, 60:8-9 is morally clear and fair on non-Muslims. These verses set clear limit and rule of engagement with non-Muslims. Add 8:61 to 60:8-9 and you have peace between Muslims and non-Muslims. Terrorists do not abuse but disregard these verses of the Qur'an. Even the "Absolute Moral Maxim" "do not kill" would disregarded by them as has been disregarded ever since it was included in the OT.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
This is the problem with the Quran which permit Muslims to kill non-Muslims IF Islam or Muslims are threatened, wronged and/or make mischiefs, etc.
So you want something in the Qur'an that will not permit Muslims to kill those who wage war on Muslims, force the Muslims to leave their homes, drop bombs on them and even destroy their country. That would be giving a free licence to the non-Muslims to keep waging wars on Muslims (threaten them, wrong them and make mischief in their countries).
I can understand the point you are making here but you are not taking into account the consequences of such Absolute Moral Maxim in a situation of war on Muslims.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
What happened in reality is SOME Muslims interpret the drawing of cartoons as a threat and wronged so they kill non-Muslims with the sincere belief they are acting out their duty as a good Muslim in the cause of Allah.
As explained previously, guidance in that kind of situation of mockery about Muhammad and Islam is clear; get away from such people (4:140). There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that tells the Muslims to kill anyone just because he is mocking their religion. Therefore, killing of the right charlies was not commanded in the Qur'an but was against the command in 4:140.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
IF Allah in the Quran issue the command 'Thou Shalt Not Killed' [Period, not ifs and not buts] then since the drawing of cartoons bring no real physical threat to Muslims lives, Muslims will have to think many times before they kill any one.
You are talking about Muslims who "think" and take every verse in the Qur'an into account before doing anything. You will still have "Muslims" killing Charlies and even other Muslims even if there was 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' in the Qur'an. There is 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' in the OT but that did not stop (but increased) the killings. 3000 were killed even on the very first day after they were told 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. What happened after that for 40 years until Moses died is much worse. What makes you think that this would have stopped Muslims killing both the non-Muslims and Muslims?
There is more than enough in the Qur'an for Muslims to live peacefully with the peaceful non-Muslims. Terrorists are abusing the Qur'an by disregarding the guidance in the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
When there in an "IF" it is open for abuse or wrong interpretations.
No. It sets a limit. Wrong action is due to going beyond the limit rather than 'IF'.
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Note my explanation above on why I suggest;
60:8-9 will be a Moral Maxim, if 60:8-9 commanded;
"ALL Muslims must be kind and just to ALL non-Muslims" Period!!
Even if non-Muslims are not kind and just to ALL Muslims? That will make no sense at all in every situation.
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Note the above is based on the Principles from the Philosophy of Morality & Ethics that I am very well verse with. In this subject I have reviewed all the various fields of Morality and what I have suggested above is the most optimal for humanity.
It cannot be fair in every situation. It may sound good philosophically but morally it will lead to more killings as has since 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' in the OT. Even in the most civilized society today, there is no Absolute Moral Maxim as 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Killings are minimum in such societies not because of such Absolute Moral Maxim as 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' but because of limits set in their laws as to what one can and what one can't do. This is then made known to people through education. And that's the correct way to reduce killings. The same limits are set in the Qur'an but this is not made known to people through the formal education. As a result, there are too many cowboys and not enough Muslims.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
The fact is there are terrible evils and violence which traced to the evil laden elements in the Quran.
You can trace such terrible acts and violence back to the onset of mankind. At least the Qur'an had set limit on which infidel can be killed (only those who had waged war on Muslims) but the killing spree in the OT is against ALL infidels.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
There are lots of evil laden elements in the Quran [influenced the Ahadith] and this must be addressed in the best possible ways to ensure no evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired by them to commit the terrible evils and violence that is going on at present and since 1,400 years ago.
What is happening today is due to the situation today. It was never like this before 1948. It began with injustice to Palestinians and I believe the situation will change once justice is done to the Palestinians in the Middle East. Blaming the Qur'an won't help the situation.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
Humanity [Muslim and non-Muslims] must first acknowledge this fact before the problem can be solved effectively.
It can't be the "fact" when 80% (your figure) of Muslims, who read, follow and comply with the same Qur'an.
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How to solve? Humanity must think hard on this for the solution.
Which humanity; powerful political leaders of the world (US, UK, Russia, China)?
There is only one solution to create peace in the world; get rid of injustice wherever it may be in the world. As long as injustice and greed prevails, you can forget about solution to killings. I said it in 2001 and am saying even now. War on Terror will be won once the powerful political leaders of the world try to eliminate injustice in the world for the sake of humanity and mankind.
[10.44] Surely Allah does not do any injustice to human beings, but human beings are unjust to their own souls.
No point in blaming Allah for injustice done by the human beings!
There is only one solution to create peace in the world; get rid of injustice wherever it may be in the world. As long as injustice and greed prevails, you can forget about solution to killings. I said it in 2001 and am saying even now. War on Terror will be won once the powerful political leaders of the world try to eliminate injustice in the world for the sake of humanity and mankind.
[10.44] Surely Allah does not do any injustice to human beings, but human beings are unjust to their own souls.
No point in blaming Allah for injustice done by the human beings!
Injustice is a relative matter
The Koran is not a call to remove injustice
But a call to tyranny
Through other compulsion to submit to the teachings of Islam
Or declare the fight against them
Human free to disbelieve in God
It is not your right to be a deputy of God on earth Gunn
You pays lip service to the issue of injustice
God in the Koran unjust and terrible
It is to take away human freedom
Koran does not know peace
Does the Koran the word of love and one candid
This is important to our topic
As for how to handle this injustice different theme
You are not even the best people impose on others the oppressor and the oppressed standard
America sent their armies to rescue the oppressed Kuwaitis
Do you think that America is a void
Here show the duplication of standard injustice
America has contributed to the restoration of Kuwait from Iraqi
But you you say that America was committed crimes against Muslims
Do you know your invitation corruption in injustice
So here is this criterion
America has done good Gndma lifted Kuwaiti Muslims
Your duty to thank America for Muslims helped your brothers in Kuwait
And also it helped the US to help the Muslims in Bosnia
It is your duty to thank America because it is a help to lift the injustice of the oppressed
With great regret
Every day you are Muslims volatility facts
To you it was not you reign
Laugh when Muslims demanding the removal of injustice
While in the Koran injustice
The concept of Dammma fare worse kinds of injustice in human history
Injustice when there is discrimination because of religion
Religious discrimination fare worse kinds of injustice in human history
First we need to differentiate the NT [Christianity's] from the OT [Judaism]
Not quite... Yes Judaism is *just* the OT, but Christianity is the NT and the OT. Christians cant completely dismiss all the actions of God in the OT just because it's convenient.
For one God in the Bible says he is unchanging, one of many references
Malachi 3:6
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"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
Second, Jesus explicitly said he didn't come to abolish the old law
Matthew 5:17-18
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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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There are more evil laden verses in the Old testaments than the Quran.
But somehow the present Jews are not influenced by these evil laden elements to commit continual evil acts like what the evil prone Muslims are doing at present.
"evil prone Muslims"... You show your hand a bit too much here. First "evil" is an extremely subjective term and has no objective meaning. Some might consider the US invading and occupying Iraq "evil" when those from Iraq asked for help explicitly asked not for occupation. Some might also consider drone strikes done by the US that have civilian casualties as "evil" as well. You have to do better than that, use genuinely descriptive words if you want to be taken seriously.
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The NT also contain evil elements [bullets] but they are not evil laden elements [bullets loaded into gun with pulled triggers].
The critical difference with the Christianity and the NT is the NT has overriding absolute moral maxims to restraint Christians from committing evil in the name of Jesus, e.g. 'Thou shall not kill,' 'Love their enemies' and love this & that all over the NT.
Well Thou shall not kill was OT, but I'm being pedantic.
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The Quran and Islam is different, where there is no absolute overriding moral maxim to restraint evil prone Muslims from fighting and killing non-Muslims.
The Quran and Islam permit Muslims to fight and kill if there are conditions and reasons to do so. These "ifs" conditions are very vague. This is why SOME evil prone Muslims will even kill upon the sight or hearing the news of non-Muslims drawing the cartoons of Prophet Muhammad.
Hitler killed around 6 million jews in the name of Christ. What about the crusades, inquisition, witch trial. What about the Catholics killing Protestants and the Protestants killing the Catholics. All in the name of Christ. Then of course we have hundreds more years of examples, such as the Christianized Roman empire killing and suppressing those that wouldn't submit.
Of course we also have slavery being justified via Christianity and the Bible...
Can't forget the OT either, God killed men, women, and children for not believing, he ordered his followers to do the same. Even if you want to defy Jesus and ditch the OT it still acts as a history of what the unchanging God commanded and did and had done in his name. God's rap sheet doesn't disappear just because he sent Jesus.
etc etc...
You can't just forget history. For centuries Christians were amazingly violent and brutal in the name of Christ... many still are. Just because there's a bit of a Muslim surge and some of the Christians have slowed down speaking nothing inherently to the religions, otherwise Christianity would be already damned for past actions.
Of course Islam is basically a branch of Christianity, so it's not surprising both have a huge history of violence and brutality.
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