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Old 07-24-2016, 10:20 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Practical Moral Maxim is something that is moral in ALL real situations and never unfair or unjust to anyone in any situation. An Absolute Moral Maxim, 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', is philosophical and limited to words only and practical in peace time only. Islam accepts it as peace time Moral Maxim. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' has never been Moral Maxim during any war time, therefore, never practical or practicable in ALL real situations.
OK, so we know that this is a lie: Islam accepts it as peace time Moral Maxim.

What you are talking about here is the Moral-Practical Dichotomy....the idea that the moral is impractical and therefore useless. You end up believing that actual evils are the practical means of existence. I understand you better now.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:47 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
OK, so we know that this is a lie: Islam accepts it as peace time Moral Maxim.

What you are talking about here is the Moral-Practical Dichotomy....the idea that the moral is impractical and therefore useless. You end up believing that actual evils are the practical means of existence. I understand you better now.
Just as you did not understand me before, you do not understand me even now.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Practical Moral Maxim is something that is moral in ALL real situations and never unfair or unjust to anyone in any situation. An Absolute Moral Maxim, 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', is philosophical and limited to words only and practical in peace time only. Islam accepts it as peace time Moral Maxim. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' has never been Moral Maxim during any war time, therefore, never practical or practicable in ALL real situations.
I am sure you understand the following in practical reality;

1. One man's meat is another man's poison. [should be person].

Note I have demonstrated the principles with the following illustrations;







The above images demonstrate inherent human nature, i.e. for the same image, different humans can perceive different results and yet both are right and not wrong.

Practical Moral Maxims are like the above when interpreted by different humans who will interpret differently in accordance to their personalities and proclivities.

This is why humans must used their intelligence, wisdom and rationally to establish absolute Moral Maxims [no ifs and no buts] as an overriding ceiling limit to guide [not enforce] morality and ethics in practice. This is especially applicable to the worst evil, i.e. killing another human being.

If a God [if exists] to deal with morals then a God [since all powerful] must issue an absolute moral maxim as a threat or otherwise and made the necessary judgement on J-Day. An all-powerful God must not be weak and compromise or waiver on such worst of evil [killing] to merely issue a conditional moral maxim.

Note all major religions issued an absolute moral maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' except Islam which allow for conditions and leave it open for the evil prone to be influence to commit terrible evils.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:09 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
'
Quote:
Thou Shalt Not Kill' except Islam which allow for conditions and leave it open for the evil prone to be influence to commit terrible evils
.
you are right
The proof is the Quran
It is the Bible for Muslims
And do not forget the other teachings
Humanitarian value of women in Islam
And also religious discrimination among humans
Aldzeaeyeh
The concept of paradise where sex and porn
All these make the teachings of Islam have distinct
It is the highest it has the elements of hatred to humanity
These ideas are followed at all times and everywhere attributes
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:33 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
Reputation: 204
[quote=Continuum;44882238]
Quote:
Practical Moral Maxims are like the above when interpreted by different humans who will interpret differently in accordance to their personalities and proclivities.
I agree with you there is a difference in perception of the same image
This difference is a relative matter
This is caused by social norms
The simplest evidence of this difference is to wear skirt
It is Scotland's traditional dress for men
While wearing the skirt is one of the strange things in other communities
But the fundamental morality Other
A standard humanist joint
It is the human conscience
The compass is owned by every human creature on earth that
And through human experience
See that the moral standard
Concentrated in the rejection of evil
And evil is murder, theft, lying and assault on others
These commandments were at the core of the human conscience
For this reason
When we put this criterion
To the known religions
We can know the religion that violates the the human conscience
Through written texts
Islam is one of the religions that violate the the human conscience
And our guide is the Koran and what he did Muhammad
What it is written of him who wrote Islam
These are books that explain Islam by Muslims
They are evidence of this on every Muslim and argument it
Evidential
In that Islam is a religion that promotes evil
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:43 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
Reputation: 204
Three cases where it is permissible to lie
He wrote of Muslims
They lie in the war
And lying to a wife
And lying at mediation between the warring
And either Alttaatqqah
They are from the teachings of the Koran
It is the highest degree of lying==============
==========================================
Said Umm Kulthum girl obstacle ibn Abi - God bless them - I did not hear the Prophet - peace be upon him - is authorized in a bit of a lie only three: the reform among the people, and the war, and talk man to his wife, and the mirror of her husband). In the war, I do not mind lying, which benefit the Muslims, do not be a fool not to be the treachery of the infidels, but be in the interests of the Muslims as if to say Amir army we marched tomorrow, God willing, to such and such, or say: We'll go to the Fulani, to blind the news for the enemy until Afjohm caught unprepared if they have reached and alerted and called before that did not respond and Aandua, has proven that the Prophet - peace be upon him - that he wanted the invasion to other lorry. What it is meant by that lying which is not treachery and deception, but in the interests of the Muslims is not quite in the war. Thus, in the reform between people, between two villages or two groups or tribes or two people fit them of lying, which does not hurt any of the people, but the benefit of those, one of the two tribes comes and says: The brothers Eyal other tribe call you and praise you and want to reform you, then go to the other says like that, even if what he heard them this, even combines them, and even the fit between them, and even removes hatred that between them, and so between the two groups, or two families, or two people, lie a lie does not hurt any of the people, but benefit them, and cause the demise of hatred this is a reform among the people. The man with his wife Valomr it widely, if the lie does not hurt anybody other, but between them there is nothing wrong with that, if you say 'I will do so, and will not Oasak never, and will buy this thing, and I will work in the House this thing, he says, as well as , something to which it relates, to please her will buy you such and such, I will do such and such, closer to things and try to please her of benefit, and combine them, which is also in things related to their own, not the two lied to one of the people.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:46 AM
 
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Any religion gives legitimacy of lying
Islam declares
This
Does this correspond with the moral conscience of humanity
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:21 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am sure you understand the following in practical reality;

1. One man's meat is another man's poison. [should be person].

Note I have demonstrated the principles with the following illustrations;







The above images demonstrate inherent human nature, i.e. for the same image, different humans can perceive different results and yet both are right and not wrong.

Practical Moral Maxims are like the above when interpreted by a situation of peace.humans who will interpret differently in accordance to their personalities and proclivities.

This is why humans must used their intelligence, wisdom and rationally to establish absolute Moral Maxims [no ifs and no buts] as an overriding ceiling limit to guide [not enforce] morality and ethics in practice. This is especially applicable to the worst evil, i.e. killing another human being.

If a God [if exists] to deal with morals then a God [since all powerful] must issue an absolute moral maxim as a threat or otherwise and made the necessary judgement on J-Day. An all-powerful God must not be weak and compromise or waiver on such worst of evil [killing] to merely issue a conditional moral maxim.

Note all major religions issued an absolute moral maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' except Islam which allow for conditions and leave it open for the evil prone to be influence to commit terrible evils.
An Absolutely Moral Maxim is absolutely useless and limited to words only if it still requires you to make a different decision in a war situation. It is not an Absolute Moral Maxim if there is still room in it for a human to make a different decision as in a real situation of war. It is useful only in a peace situation and it is applicable in Islam too in a peace situation.

The Absolute Moral Maxim is useless in a situation of war where human being is left to disregard it and make a different decision than as an Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Thus 60:8-9 is no different in a real situation than Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is.

In reality, what you are suggesting here is the same as what you complain about. All you are saying is, my way of decision-making to kill is better than your way of decision-making to kill in a war situation.

A human being decides in each real situation except that 60:8-9 and the other verses on the same issue set limit to how far one can go before s/he must stop. In your suggested 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', there is no limit in a war situation and, therefore, open-ended and thus open to abuse worse than mere misinterpretation. Also, there is no room for misinterpretation of a verse of the Qur'an unless there is no other verse in the Qur'an that is clarifying the issue.
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Old 07-25-2016, 08:17 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
Reputation: 204
[quote=Khalif;44882829]An Absolutely Moral Maxim is absolutely useless and limited to words only if it still requires you to make a different decision in a war situation. It is not an Absolute Moral Maxim if there is still room in it for a human to make a different decision as in a real situation of war. It is useful only in a peace situation and it is applicable in Islam too in a peace situation.

The Absolute Moral Maxim is useless in a situation of war where human being is left to disregard it and make a different decision than as an Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Thus 60:8-9 is no different in a real situation than Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is.

In reality, what you are suggesting here is the same as what you complain about. All you are saying is, my way of decision-making to kill is better than your way of decision-making to kill in a war situation.

A human being decides in each real situation except that 60:8-9 and the other verses on the same issue set limit to how far one can go before s/he must stop. In your suggested 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', there is no limit in a war situation and, therefore, open-ended and thus open to abuse worse than mere misinterpretation. Also, there is no room for misinterpretation of a verse of the Qur'an unless there is no other verse in the Qur'an that is clarifying the issue.[/quote

This attempts to justify the verses and combat acts of evil and terror that are supported by the Koran
Killing and fighting
On an individual and personal level
Killing and fighting
Is completely unacceptable and is an absolute
Every murder is rejected
And self-defense in cramped conditions
On the social and international level
War rejected by the Christian religious side
As for Islam, the war is one of the elements of his existence and continuity
A war of aggression is rejected
And all wars are unacceptable from the moral and religious outlook correct
Only Islam gives legitimacy war Divine
This is the cause of evil in the world
When the man goes to war
He should know that it was against God's commandments
But when it is exposed to the risk of the entity Alajtmaga
War is a defensive way
But it's not from God
God rejects all wars
Holy and which are not sacred
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
An Absolutely Moral Maxim is absolutely useless and limited to words only if it still requires you to make a different decision in a war situation. It is not an Absolute Moral Maxim if there is still room in it for a human to make a different decision as in a real situation of war. It is useful only in a peace situation and it is applicable in Islam too in a peace situation.

The Absolute Moral Maxim is useless in a situation of war where human being is left to disregard it and make a different decision than as an Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Thus 60:8-9 is no different in a real situation than Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is.

In reality, what you are suggesting here is the same as what you complain about. All you are saying is, my way of decision-making to kill is better than your way of decision-making to kill in a war situation.

A human being decides in each real situation except that 60:8-9 and the other verses on the same issue set limit to how far one can go before s/he must stop. In your suggested 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', there is no limit in a war situation and, therefore, open-ended and thus open to abuse worse than mere misinterpretation. Also, there is no room for misinterpretation of a verse of the Qur'an unless there is no other verse in the Qur'an that is clarifying the issue.
The point is you are ignorant of how a proper system of Morality should work.

In a theistic framework like the Abrahamic religions, an all-powerful all-knowing all-wise will lay down an overriding absolute moral maxim to cover all situations without any holes.
If this maxim related to killing, i.e. the worst evil, is conditional, then that religion is low grade and likely to be authored by human[s] instead of a God [if exists].

Quote:
A human being decides in each real situation except that 60:8-9 and the other verses on the same issue set limit to how far one can go before s/he must stop.
In your suggested 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', there is no limit in a war situation and, therefore, open-ended and thus open to abuse worse than mere misinterpretation. Also, there is no room for misinterpretation of a verse of the Qur'an unless there is no other verse in the Qur'an that is clarifying the issue.
If Thou Shalt Not Kill' is the absolute moral maxim, how can it be abused?
In addition how can it be misinterpreted since it is clear and absolute?

The point here is it is common sense it is one's duty to fight and kill in a war [evil in the first place] or kill in self-defense if necessary.

Then on Judgment Day it is up to God to judge how much one has differ from the absolute moral maxim lay down by God. If one kill in a war as a duty or kill in self-defense then God will likely forgive them. If it is a crime of passion with good basis, then the punishment will be light.

If God lay down a rule on killing that is conditional, then when SOME Muslims killed because of the drawing of cartoons of Muhammad, Allah will have to reward the cartoon killers because they complied with Allah's conditional [if threat, wrong, mischief, etc.] rule on killing.
It is the conditional rule of killing in the Quran that influenced SOME Muslims to kill for the slightest reason they feel offended and other reasons they think justified. The proof of this is so glaring, i.e. 28,876



The above is one class of evils committed by SOME Muslims, there are many other types of evils committed by SOME other Muslims.

Now show me any equivalence of any evidence of the above types of evil [in the same sense] from believers of other main religions?
Note "same sense" meant influence by verses from the holy texts.
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