U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-30-2016, 03:34 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. Yes, verses say it's OK to kill non-Muslims...in fact it commands it unless the non-Muslim converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong! 2:256 rejects your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2:256 was abrogated by:
Say unto those of the wondering Arabs who were left behind: Ye will be called against a folk of mighty prowess to fight them until they surrender.... (48:16)
48:16 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert. This verse was about fighting in defence against Meccan who were about to attack Muslims in Madina.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-30-2016, 03:37 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. Yes, verses say it's OK to kill non-Muslims...in fact it commands it unless the non-Muslim converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong! 2:256 rejects your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2:256 was abrogated by:
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.... (9:123)
9:123 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 03:42 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. Yes, verses say it's OK to kill non-Muslims...in fact it commands it unless the non-Muslim converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong! 2:256 rejects your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2:256 was abrogated by:
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.... (9:73)
The verse 9:73 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert. Hypocrites were claiming to be Muslims just as many are claiming to be Muslims today but are doing most of what is forbidden to them through the Qur'an.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 03:45 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. Yes, verses say it's OK to kill non-Muslims...in fact it commands it unless the non-Muslim converts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong! 2:256 rejects your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2:256 was abrogated by:
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85
The verse 3:85 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.

Finally, what you don’t want to know is that all such verses you quote here and will quote in future are about war situation and not about peace situation. Here is what the Qur’an says about those unbelievers who do not wage war on the believers:

[60:8-9] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 03:47 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
3. Even worse than the slaughtering of non-Muslims is allah doing horrible torture for all eternity to billions of souls of disbelievers/unbelievers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am sure it means nothing to you. You do not have to worry about that; not yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Why is that? Perhaps because sadist allah, in your mind, is going to do horrible torture to me? And why would sadist allah do that? Isn't threats of horrible eternal torture a compulsion for many?
Nobody is compelling you; so stop complaining!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 04:21 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2. The hadiths are a very important part of Islam no matter what you say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
All ahadith after the Qur'an are effectively rejected by the Qur'an and, therefore, are outside Islam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
None of the other Muslims I have spoken with (several thousand) say this. So what one Muslim says in the face of thousands is meaningless.
What you are saying and the “thousands” could be saying is in your and their ignorance about the Qur’an:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

The “thousands” were required not to believe any other hadith after the Qur’an.

The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Qur’an, not hadith (see 25:30)

We have been commanded to follow the Qur’an alone (see 7:2-3; 17:46).

Anything that is not commanded in the Qur’an, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (see 5:101)

The Best Hadith is the Qur'an (see 39:23)

Finally, here is a fatal blow to your favourite subject “hadith” from “hadith” itself:

"The prophet said: 'Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (see Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39)

And from the Qur'an:

[5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.


[29.18] And if you reject
(the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).

The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Qur’an (see 6:19).

You must talk to millions instead of just thousands to know more. If you can't talk to millions, just one will do; the one with free mind.

www.free-minds.org
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 06:42 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,156 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
9:5 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert. It is not about all non-Muslims but is only about polytheists (idol worshipers of Mecca) who had attacked Muslims three times already. They now have to repent for their actions.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.
No one was attacking the Muslims. The verse says:

But when the forbidden months are past,

That alone means no one was attacking the Muslims!

then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,

wherever you find them means the Muslims were NOT being attacked!


and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);

When people are being attacked they are not 'lying in wait' to attack.


2:256 was abrogated. Deal with it.

"but is only about polytheists (idol worshipers of Mecca) who had attacked Muslims three times already. "

Post the verses from the Quran that tell of these murders of Muslims by Meccans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2016, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse 3:85 does not say it’s OK to kill non-Muslims or kill them unless they convert.

2:256 was never abrogated. It still stands as valid today as when it was revealed.

Finally, what you don’t want to know is that all such verses you quote here and will quote in future are about war situation and not about peace situation. Here is what the Qur’an says about those unbelievers who do not wage war on the believers:

[60:8-9] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
There you go again with 60:8-9 which has no teeth in the Quran because it is unconditional and not absolute.

Why do not you keep banging on stories like;
"This verse was about fighting in defence against Meccan who were about to attack Muslims in Madina."
when you are Quran-Only.
If you are Quran-Only you should only rely on the Principles from the Quran and not rely on stories which cannot be verified and confirmed at all.

If you want to rely on stories, then 2:256 in context was in reference to the restraining of newly converted parents who were previous Jews and idolaters from compelling their children to convert. It was not mean to apply to ALL 5.5 billion non-Muslims now or those in the 7th century.

I seldom discuss the very critical sword/war verses [I recorded 327 'related' verses] but rather focus on the underlying concepts like the 3,400++ evil laden verses [of various degrees] which as a whole compel SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence based on those very volatile sword/war verses.
The problem and weakness of the Quran and Islam are these evil laden elements including the sword/wars verses should NEVER have been included in the Quran which central purpose is soteriological and a holy text.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2016, 05:16 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
No one was attacking the Muslims. The verse says:

But when the forbidden months are past,

That alone means no one was attacking the Muslims!
You have no idea what you are talking about here. This is the result of you being used to copy and paste only and lacking any knowledge about the background to these verses. Do you even know what is meant by the forbidden months? Why would Muslims wait 4 months if they are supposed to kill all non-Muslims or those who will not convert?

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

Do you even know what this agreement was about?

[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the kafireen.

They had tried to weaken Allah even after making an agreement that they will do no such thing.

[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

Do you know why they were required to repent if they hadn't killed anyone during the agreement?

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are conscious of Allah.

Perhaps your hate sites do not tell you about 9:4 that is also about the idolaters but those who had not broken the peace agreement and had not killed anyone on the Muslim side. The peace agreement is still on with them but not with only those who had broken it. This verse is a clear indication that there was no order to fight those Meccan idol worshipers who were not attacking Muslims.

2:256 abrogated? Nonsense! It obviously still applied in 9:4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,

wherever you find them means the Muslims were NOT being attacked!
It means they had already broken the peace agreement with Muslims by killing those they were not supposed to kill during the agreement. In other words, the agreement of no killings and no wars for ten years had been broken at beginning of the forbidden 4 months. Muslims were still preserving 4 sacred months in which there was to be no fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);

When people are being attacked they are not 'lying in wait' to attack.
They had already killed when they were not supposed to kill anyone for ten years. Therefore, they had already begun the attack. Now it was payback time in four months (not immediately because of forbidden months).


Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
2:256 was abrogated. Deal with it.

"but is only about polytheists (idol worshipers of Mecca) who had attacked Muslims three times already. "

Post the verses from the Quran that tell of these murders of Muslims by Meccans.
Meccans had attacked Muslims at Badr, Uhad and at the Trench. Many Muslims were killed at Uhad. The Qur'an does not give every detail but it has been recorded in history. Here is a brief glimpse from the Qur'an about what had happened to Muslims when Meccans had attacked them in Madina (at Trench):

[33.9] O you who believe! call to mind the favor of Allah to you when there came down upon you hosts, so We sent against them a strong wind and hosts, that you saw not, and Allah is Seeing what you do.

[33.10] When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, and you began to think diverse thoughts of Allah.

[33.11] There the believers were tried and they were shaken with severe shaking.


This had happened before 9:5 was revealed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2016, 05:26 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There you go again with 60:8-9 which has no teeth in the Quran because it is unconditional and not absolute.

Why do not you keep banging on stories like;
"This verse was about fighting in defence against Meccan who were about to attack Muslims in Madina."
when you are Quran-Only.
If you are Quran-Only you should only rely on the Principles from the Quran and not rely on stories which cannot be verified and confirmed at all.
When I rely on the Principles from the Qur'an, as in 60:8-9, you say, "has no teeth". Do they have to bite you before you know whether they have teeth or not?

"No teeth" is a pathetic argument.

The Qur'an is clear, be kind to those who have not waged war on you because of your deen and have not expelled you from your homes. What else you want from the Qur'an?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top