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If you insist, go and read these verses for yourself:
For first war on believer at Badr:
[3.121], [3.122], [3.123]
For the imminent attack on Muslims in Madina where these verses were revealed:
[3.172], [3.173]
For the second war at Uhad in which many Muslims were killed:
[3.166], [3.167], [3.168], [3.169]
For the third attack on Muslims in Madina which completely failed:
[33.9], [33.10], [33.11]
And the verse in context of 9:5 you had not posted:
[9.13]
So, my question to you now:
According to the Qur'an, which side had attacked the other side first, the Kuffar (unbelievers of Mecca) or the Muslims?
We are discussing your claim:
"The ethical rule in the Qur'an is, do not kill anyone unless anyone is going to kill you."
Which became more specific when you also claimed:
"polytheists (idol worshipers of Mecca) who had attacked Muslims three times already. They now have to repent for their actions."
So, I asked you to post verses from the quran that prove "idol worshipers of Mecca" were aggressively attacking and killing (3 times) Muslims.
"For first war on believer at Badr:
[3.121], [3.122], [3.123]"
First problem: The quran says these verses are about the battle of UHUD, not Badr. In fact, 123 talks about the past battle of Badr!!
And [remember] when you, [O Muhammad], left your family in the morning to post the believers at their stations for the battle [of Uhud] - and Allah is Hearing and Knowing 121
Allah had already given you the victory at Badr, when ye were contemptible. So observe your duty to Allah in order that ye may be thankful. 123
Second problem: No one is attacking and killing the Muslims in these verses. Muhammed is telling Muslims to go someplace to do battle. No Muslim is being attacked. They are going to go do battle, not sitting around watching TV and are then attacked and killed!
I'm not reading any farther.
Post the verses from the Quran that tell of these murders (three occurrences!!) of Muslims by Meccans.
If you insist, go and read these verses for yourself:
For first war on believer at Badr:
[3.121], [3.122], [3.123]
For the imminent attack on Muslims in Madina where these verses were revealed:
[3.172], [3.173]
For the second war at Uhad in which many Muslims were killed:
[3.166], [3.167], [3.168], [3.169]
For the third attack on Muslims in Madina which completely failed:
[33.9], [33.10], [33.11]
And the verse in context of 9:5 you had not posted:
[9.13]
So, my question to you now:
According to the Qur'an, which side had attacked the other side first, the Kuffar (unbelievers of Mecca) or the Muslims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312
We are discussing your claim:
"The ethical rule in the Qur'an is, do not kill anyone unless anyone is going to kill you."
Which became more specific when you also claimed:
"polytheists (idol worshipers of Mecca) who had attacked Muslims three times already. They now have to repent for their actions."
So, I asked you to post verses from the quran that prove "idol worshipers of Mecca" were aggressively attacking and killing (3 times) Muslims.
"For first war on believer at Badr:
[3.121], [3.122], [3.123]"
First problem: The quran says these verses are about the battle of UHUD, not Badr. In fact, 123 talks about the past battle of Badr!!
Exactly!
The verse 3:123 does mention the battle of Badr which is not near Mecca but Madina and it was between much weaker Muslims and much stronger unbelievers.
Both Badr and Uhad are nowhere near Mecca but near Madina where Muslims had migrated because of the persecution in Mecca.
Quote:
And [remember] when you, [O Muhammad], left your family in the morning to post the believers at their stations for the battle [of Uhud] - and Allah is Hearing and Knowing 121
Allah had already given you the victory at Badr, when ye were contemptible. So observe your duty to Allah in order that ye may be thankful. 123
Therefore, the verse 123 is about Badr rather than about Uhad.
Quote:
Second problem: No one is attacking and killing the Muslims in these verses. Muhammed is telling Muslims to go someplace to do battle. No Muslim is being attacked. They are going to go do battle, not sitting around watching TV and are then attacked and killed!
I'm not reading any farther.
Of course it is a problem for you that you do not want to read further. Very convenient!
If you had read further, you would have read the men (unbelievers) gathering against Muslims outside Madina and the Muslims killed there at Uhad where they were defending against the attack from the unbelievers. This place is at least 324 miles from Mecca. Was it the unbelievers from Mecca attacking the believers in Madina or the Muslims from Madina attacking the unbelievers from Mecca?
Quote:
Post the verses from the Quran that tell of these murders (three occurrences!!) of Muslims by Meccans.
I have given you the verses. You will have to read them as you did with [3.121], [3.122], [3.123]. I am not going to do it for you. This is where I am going to make you do your homework for this discussion. I post the rest again:
For the imminent attack on Muslims in Madina where these verses were revealed:
[3.172], [3.173]
For the second war at Uhad in which many Muslims were killed:
[3.166], [3.167], [3.168], [3.169]
For the third attack on Muslims in Madina which completely failed:
[33.9], [33.10], [33.11]
And the verse in context of 9:5 you had not posted:
[9.13].
And don't forget to answer the question I had asked you in my last post! I repeat the question again:
"So, my question to you now:
According to the Qur'an, which side had attacked the other side first, the Kuffar (unbelievers of Mecca) or the Muslims?"
What was the point of you reading the Qur'an 60 times that I have to tell you where it says that they attacked Muslims first?
Perhaps your reading the Qur'an is for nit-picking only rather than understanding it!
There are always many perspectives to any statements or verses.
Since you are not ALLAH, you cannot be 100% certain your understanding is the right one especially when you have only read the Quran [at one go] 6-7 times.
I suggest you explain clearly your point instead of merely throwing verses all over based on what you think as 100% correct.
If some one accused you of murder in a court, surely you will not accept merely quotations to Law Books without proper explanations and justifications.
The verse 3:123 does mention the battle of Badr which is not near Mecca but Madina and it was between much weaker Muslims and much stronger unbelievers.
Both Badr and Uhad are nowhere near Mecca but near Madina where Muslims had migrated because of the persecution in Mecca.
Therefore, the verse 123 is about Badr rather than about Uhad.
Of course it is a problem for you that you do not want to read further. Very convenient!
If you had read further, you would have read the men (unbelievers) gathering against Muslims outside Madina and the Muslims killed there at Uhad where they were defending against the attack from the unbelievers. This place is at least 324 miles from Mecca. Was it the unbelievers from Mecca attacking the believers in Madina or the Muslims from Madina attacking the unbelievers from Mecca?
I have given you the verses. You will have to read them as you did with [3.121], [3.122], [3.123]. I am not going to do it for you. This is where I am going to make you do your homework for this discussion. I post the rest again:
For the imminent attack on Muslims in Madina where these verses were revealed:
[3.172], [3.173]
For the second war at Uhad in which many Muslims were killed:
[3.166], [3.167], [3.168], [3.169]
For the third attack on Muslims in Madina which completely failed:
[33.9], [33.10], [33.11]
And the verse in context of 9:5 you had not posted:
[9.13].
And don't forget to answer the question I had asked you in my last post! I repeat the question again:
"So, my question to you now:
According to the Qur'an, which side had attacked the other side first, the Kuffar (unbelievers of Mecca) or the Muslims?"
Nope, not falling for it. You said:
"For first war on believer at Badr:
[3.121], [3.122], [3.123]"
Wrong battle and did not mention any attack on and killing of Muslims.
Why would I read further when you already started lying? Why waste my time?
Post the verses (THE FULL VERSES, NOT JUST THE NUMBERS) from the Quran that tell of these murders (three occurrences!!) of Muslims by Meccans.
And don't forget to answer the question I had asked you in my last post! I repeat the question again:
"So, my question to you now:
According to the Qur'an, which side had attacked the other side first, the Kuffar (unbelievers of Mecca) or the Muslims?"
I have not read of any specific verses in the Quran where it state the Meccans attacked Muhammad first and for no reasons whatsoever.
From the overall context of the Quran, it was Muhammad who insulted the Meccan and started the tit-for-tat when he preached his newly self invented 'religion'.
I have not read of any specific verses in the Quran where it state the Meccans attacked Muhammad first and for no reasons whatsoever.
From the overall context of the Quran, it was Muhammad who insulted the Meccan and started the tit-for-tat when he preached his newly self invented 'religion'.
I don't think there is anything. That is why Khalif is obfuscating and dancing around. But I wanted to give him a chance. Or, in this case, several chances.
Wrong battle and did not mention any attack on and killing of Muslims.
And when you realized there was mention of attack and killing of Muslims in the further verses, you stopped reading any more.
Quote:
Why would I read further when you already started lying? Why waste my time?
No lie. War at Badr was mentioned in 3:123. The 3:121 and 3:122 are in preparation for defense against the next attack on Madina.
You won't read further because it will refute your argument and expose your hate against Muslims, Muhammad, the Qur'an and Islam.
Quote:
Post the verses (THE FULL VERSES, NOT JUST THE NUMBERS) from the Quran that tell of these murders (three occurrences!!) of Muslims by Meccans.
I have given you the verse numbers. You do your homework now. With your attitude towards Muslims and Islam, I am not going to quote full verses but only the numbers.
With your record of quoting so many verses in one go in this forum, I am sure it is no problem for you to quote a few more verses. I know exactly why you don't want to do that. It will prove my point.
I don't think there is anything. That is why Khalif is obfuscating and dancing around. But I wanted to give him a chance. Or, in this case, several chances.
You think wrong; as usual.
It means you do not know for sure but only "think" that you know.
I have not read of any specific verses in the Quran where it state the Meccans attacked Muhammad first and for no reasons whatsoever.
What's your point?
Are you saying that the Meccans did not attack Muslims first or that the Meccans did attack first but for a reason?
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