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Old 05-12-2016, 05:50 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated 'believe' is a very loose term and very pervasive in life.
It is; outside Islam.

Quote:
There are two aspects of believe in this case, i.e.

1. Muhammad believing he was the chosen messenger,
2. Muhammad believing in the messages [like any other believers].

In 1, Muhammad went through a process from fearing he was possessed by a demon to believing he was the chosen messenger when convinced by his wife, Khadijah and others.
There was nothing so far for Khadijah to convince Muhammad that he was the chosen messenger. He was not given any message to deliver yet.

Quote:
But nevertheless after being convinced, Muhammad would have some belief and faith [eeman] in Allah to start with. This is eeman in the loose sense without any reference to the 6 pillars of eeman, i.e. eeman in the strict sense.
There is no eeman at all, not even loose, without 6 pillars.

Quote:
In it only in 2 and the later stages of his 22/23 years of receiving the recitations that Muhammad eeman increased from weak to strong [strict] when he was exposed to the main pillars of eeman from the various chapters.
Note I have been giving verses on such increases in relation to degrees, grades, ranks, and competition between Muslims.
And I have been stating that it is not faith/eeman that strengthens but the person who has faith/eeman becomes strong in faith/eeman. Eeman or believing in Allah is the same whether with one verse or with more than hundred chapters. It is the person who becomes either strong in eeman or weak in eeman. When he is not even weak in eeman, he is unbeliever.

A person changes from unbeliever to weak believer to strong believer.
It could be in reverse too, from strong believer to week believer to unbeliever.

Quote:
Again you are conflating and messing the issue.
Not at all. I understand the issue, unlike you.

Quote:
There are two situations of fear in this case, i.e.

1. Real fears of Muhammad upon thinking he was possessed by demons [later satanic verses].
Being possessed by demons has nothing to do with "satanic verses". Funny how some believe in demon but not in Allah!

Quote:
2. Normal divine related fears [out of respect] associated with believing in Allah.
Divine related fear is more than just "out of respect". It is also because of divine power on which one's very existence depends.

Quote:
There was no way Muhammad would have eeman [as per Quran] when he was shivering with fears thinking he was possessed by demons and before he received the Quran.
The Qur'an does not say that he had eeman "before he received the Qur'an". The Qur'an also confirms that he was not mad. That leaves us with the only conclusion; Allah guided him to faith with His Light (42:52) on the Mountain of Light.


Quote:
At most, he only has some weak eeman in the looser sense after being convinced by Khadijah and others he was the chosen messenger.
That can't be true as there was no message yet for Muhammad to deliver. Therefore, it is just made up that Khadijah convinced him that he was the chosen messenger.

Quote:
Muhammad's degrees of eeman [beliefs, faith] would have changed from low [weak] to high [strong] during his 22/23 years of receiving the ayat from Allah in stages.
That's your opinion. In reality, he had eeman from the outset of the revelation of the Qur'an and stayed strong throught the 23 years. Even when the believers wih him were being persecuted and threats were being made against his life within the first 10 years in Makkah, he stayed strong in eeman. Not all verses were revealed in those first 10 years.

Quote:
Such progressive increase in eeman is the same for all Muslims.
Surely [you cannot deny] there is a difference between
-the degree of eeman of a beginner Muslims and
-a Muslim who has practiced the pillars of islam and pillars of eeman for 40 years correctly and diligently.
Despite my explanation that a Muslim does not "practice" pillars of eeman but only Islam, you haven't learnt a thing about eeman. There is no point in you repeating the same again and again that Muslims practice eeman. You won't find even one verse in the Qur'an in which Muslims are commanded to "practice" eeman but only to "have" eeman.

Quote:
As discussed in the perspective of different fears, this point is irrelevant.
It is not as you say but as it is stated in the Qur'an. Only that is relevant.

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This is where you are trying to be deceptive and in denial.
When you say 'stronger in eeman' there are obvious changes and degrees of eeman involved as with any other thing that are subject to changes [increase or decrease].
I am absolutely straight in this issue. Only the person's strength in eeman changes rather than eeman itself changes.

Quote:
[indent]Example.
It is obviously it is still 'love for the other' where a couple is in love, but the degree of 'love' will definitely change over time. In many cases, there are changes from platonic [infatuation] love to real true love between couples.[indent]
Is it (a) the couple in love, (b) love between couple or (c) love in couple?

Quote:
That is why you are ignorant and do not take into account where
1. a Muslim who is not aware of the full range of the 6 pillars of eeman and
2. a Muslim who is fully aware, understood and practice the 6 pillars of eeman correctly and diligently.
This is why you can't understand a Muslim's "eeman"; you are ignorant about eeman. Eeman is not practiced but it is to have! It is Islam/Submission that is practiced.

Quote:
Your views are dumb in this case.
Strong believing will lead to strong degree of beliefs, i.e. faith, thus eeman in the strict sense with reference to the 6 pillars of eeman.
That view is real dumb view because one will never believe without faith (eeman). Therefore it is faith (eeman) that leads one to believe in 6 pillars. This faith (eeman) comes from the ayat of Allah as inspiration/ruh/spirit. It is the ayat that lead one to faith. Strong believing is due to the strength and attribute of the believer (his inherent potential) rather than eeman itself is strong, weak or non-existing.

Quote:
Accordingly the Quran is the only divine source for Islam. Therefore to justify what is "Islamic" [note Islamic] one must refer ultimately to the Quran ONLY and no where else.
This is where we cannot rely on the words of Muhammad who was merely a Warner.
Messenger ARE warners. You rely for your information of Islam and Muhammad from those who were not even warners. They were nobody in comparison.

Quote:
It is very bad logic and rationality to rely on the Quran to prove itself.
It is even worse to ignore what is in the Qur'an and rely on other sources, to understand what is stated in the Qur'an, that contradict the Qur'an itslf.

Quote:

Example
Will the judge take the words of the accused, s/he is not the murderer?
Obviously the judge will need to weigh and judge based on the objective external evidences.
It has to be evidence from a credible witness. Without any credible witness, judge will have to rely on the word of the accused that s/he is not the murderer.

Quote:
Therefore to justify Muhammad as founder of Islam we have to rely on historical accounts to the best of the historians' abilities which must be based on objective evidences and other reasonable justifications.
You keep looking for historical accounts from people that never lived during the historical events, and I don't have to rely on anything that contradicts the Qur'an, the word of the One who is aware of all history.

Quote:
My claims are based on whatever historical accounts are available and justified in terms of reality of humanity. As I had stated there are lots of research and evidence to prove
1. the existence of people who experienced altered states of consciousness in relation to experiencing God talking to them.
2. These so-called godmen later founded religions and cults
3. Such ailments and experiences can be cured by medicines and counselling.
And if these ailments are not cured, hell will certainly cure all ailments.

Quote:
Note how I differentiated the real fears of Muhammad re demons and the fears in terms of respect for Allah.
Why should someone "fear" Allah if it is only respect for Allah? There has to be more than just respect!

Quote:
In those days, the communities were well aware of the prophesy of the next messenger of God. Note the prophesy of "Ahmed" in the Torah and Gospels.
Where in the Torah and the Gospels is the prophecy about the next messenger that Khajijah was aware of?

Also, why was she 15 years late in saying so? Did she not know Muhammad as the "next messenger" during those 15 years she had been married to him?

Quote:
Over history, there had been thousands of men and women who has claimed they were agents [prophets, messengers, etc.] of God. Based on research these motivations are due to their experiences of altered states of consciousness via drugs, hallucinogens, brain problems, psychiatric problems and other reasons.
And most of them were forgotten even during their lifetime.

Quote:
It was reported Muhammad thought he was possessed by demons and was shivering with fears and reported to Khadijah. In modern terms this is referred to as a 'bad trip' and such experiences are very common since then to the present.
A complete nonsense of report!

I have been up that Mountain and know that no man could have survived coming down that Mountain even during the day time shivering with fear. It was extremely steep and certain death for someone coming down shivering in fear.

Quote:
To be accepted as an agent [prophets, messengers, etc.] of God is a big thing in the olden days.
Since Muhammad reported his altered states of consciousness, Khadijah would had a vested interest [respect to her family] to claim her husband was a special agent of Allah instead of being accused as a madman.
Another nonsense!

There had been no messengers or prophets born in Mecca before Muhammad. Muhammad's family was the Quraish family. Why were THEY not proud of their family member being a prophet?

Quote:
I am not insisting the above is absolutely true but the above historical hypothesis within reality and human nature is very likely.
I believe this is all conjecture and what is stated in the Qur'an was written at the time and is the only written record of the time in our possession today that we can rely upon.

Quote:
I understand as a Muslim and believer, a Muslim MUST be biased to accept whatever is said about Islam regardless of the truth of history and reality. Otherwise his faith for salvation [psychological problem] will not be effective. This is at best very subjective to facilitate easing the psychological angst and thus is NEVER objective.
The opposite is just as good argument if not better. I do not see my faith is to get rid of or sort out my "psychological problem" but to help me live this life in peace and true happiness that comes with peace in heart and soul. I have never thought that I am guaranteed salvation because I am a Muslim. For salvation, I have to be righteous rather than just Muslim or just a believer in 6 pillars.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
As I had stated 'believe' is a very loose term and very pervasive in life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is outside Islam.
You are so desperate and blinded that you don't even know your views are kicking your back.

If you say 'believe' in general is outside Islam, that mean you [not other Muslims] are only believing in your own version of Islam within your own world.
This is what mental patients [schizophrenics and the likes ] are thinking, i.e. whatever they believe is within their own world which is not reconcilable to greater external reality.

The point is whatever is supposedly real within Islam must be reconcilable to the greater external reality. If a Muslim cannot reconcile the reality of Islam within the greater external reality than that Muslim is psychotic as with mental patients like schizophrenics and the likes.
Perhaps this is one reason you [perhaps a few others] are the only exceptional ones within the 1.5 billion Muslims who do not agree with the reality of 49:14 & 17.

Thus believe-in-general within the greater external reality must be reconciled first to the believe-in-general then second to believe in the strict sense [6 pillars of eeman] within Islam. There is something wrong with your thoughts if you are not able to reconcile the above.


Quote:
There are two aspects of believe in this case, i.e.

1. Muhammad believing he was the chosen messenger,
2. Muhammad believing in the messages [like any other believers].

In 1, Muhammad went through a process from fearing he was possessed by a demon to believing he was the chosen messenger when convinced by his wife, Khadijah and others.

Quote:
There was nothing so far for Khadijah to convince Muhammad that he was the chosen messenger. He was not given any message to deliver yet.
The advantage of the above inference is we have lots of real life examples and psychiatric research on those godmen who had experienced altered states of consciousness and claimed they are prophets and various agents of God.
Therefore we can use the researched findings and do a parallel with Muhammad's experiences then and based on the actual resulting events and consequences.

Claiming to be a chosen messenger do not necessary require any message to be delivered on behalf of God.
Often the person [patient] will have some sort of VERY extraordinary 'spiritual' experiences.
Many experience as if God has spoken with them or they experienced God's presence.
In the case, Muhammad have had some sort of altered states of consciousness and thought he was possessed by demons. [such demonic experiences are also recorded in the various research].

Muhammad reported his experiences to Khadijah and thereupon Khadijah and others convinced Muhammad he was the prophesized messenger as reported in the Torah and Injil.

Then the messages came later and confirmed by Allah in the revelations.

Note: In reality there is no Allah [it is impossible for a God to exists] and the messages received by Muhammad were from his own brain and mind as it is with those researched mental patients.


Quote:
There is no eeman at all, not even loose, without 6 pillars.
Once Muhammad was convinced he was the prophesized messenger, he would have cultivated some [albeit low degree] Islamic eeman. It there is none, it does not matter because eventually the eeman will be cultivated in Muhammad over his 22/23 years.

Quote:
And I have been stating that it is not faith/eeman that strengthens but the person who has faith/eeman becomes strong in faith/eeman. Eeman or believing in Allah is the same whether with one verse or with more than hundred chapters. It is the person who becomes either strong in eeman or weak in eeman. When he is not even weak in eeman, he is unbeliever.
Don't be childish in terms of semantics and linguistic in this cases.
Strengthening faith/eeman by person is the same as a person striving to have strong faith/eeman.

Example:
Strengthening one's memory by a person is the same as a person striving to have strong memory.
This is applicable to various types of mental efforts including eeman and believing.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A person changes from unbeliever to weak believer to strong believer.
It could be in reverse too, from strong believer to week believer to unbeliever.
The reverse is definitely possible but the reversal is not the issue and context in this case.

Quote:
Not at all. I understand the issue, unlike you.
You are simply countering for countering sake but do not understand what the issue on hand.

Quote:
Being possessed by demons has nothing to do with "satanic verses". Funny how some believe in demon but not in Allah!
I don't believe in God, demons and anything that cannot be proven with evidences and justified satisfactorily.
In this case I am discussing within the context of the Quran which acknowledge the existence of Satan and jinns.
When Muhammad first thought he was possessed by demons, that was Satan's work. It was Satan's work again when Satan tried to put thoughts into Muhammad's mind.

Quote:
The Qur'an does not say that he had eeman "before he received the Qur'an". The Qur'an also confirms that he was not mad. That leaves us with the only conclusion; Allah guided him to faith with His Light (42:52) on the Mountain of Light.
It is implied Muhammad would have some eeman [weak] once he was convinced by Khadijah & others he was the chosen messenger.

No mad person will ever admit s/he is mad. A mad person is in his/her own world which to him/her is as real as anything. It is only an objective psychiatrist [even any normal person] who can confirm that mad person is really mad. As I had mentioned earlier a mad person cannot reconcile his believed reality with the general reality of the greater external world.

The Quran can deny Muhammad was not mad but that cannot necessary be the absolute truth.
The implications that Muhammad experienced first being possessed by demons then was convinced by others that an illusory God has selected him to be a messenger, point to the possibility that Muhammad could have some mental issues just like many who had similar experiences and confirmed by psychiatric to be problematic.
Note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...ia#cite_note-7
I suggest you do extensive research on this topic to either reject or accept the said theory.

Quote:
That can't be true as there was no message yet for Muhammad to deliver. Therefore, it is just made up that Khadijah convinced him that he was the chosen messenger.
Note my earlier reply on this, and here is the repeat;
Claiming to be a chosen messenger do not necessary at the initial stages require any message to be delivered on behalf of God.
Often the person [patient] will have some sort of VERY extraordinary 'spiritual' experiences.
Many experience as if God has spoken with them or they experienced God's presence.
In the case, Muhammad have had some sort of altered states of consciousness and thought he was possessed by demons. [such demonic experiences are also recorded in the various research].

Muhammad reported his experiences to Khadijah and thereupon Khadijah and others convinced Muhammad he was the prophesized messenger as reported in the Torah and Injil.

Then the messages came later and confirmed by Allah in the revelations.
Quote:
That's your opinion. In reality, he had eeman from the outset of the revelation of the Qur'an and stayed strong throught the 23 years. Even when the believers wih him were being persecuted and threats were being made against his life within the first 10 years in Makkah, he stayed strong in eeman. Not all verses were revealed in those first 10 years.
You are not talking reality here.
There was no way Muhammad had a constant degree of eeman [loose to strict] from day 1 to the end of his life.
When Muhammad first encounted Gabriel he thought he was possessed by demons. At this point he could not have eeman [beliefs and faith] in Allah at all.
It was only after he was convinced by Khadijah and others that he believed them and then believed he was the chosen messenger of Allah.
His beliefs and faith [eeman] in Allah progress gradually over the 22/23 years.

Muhammad may have sufficient eeman to persevere during the first 10 years but it does not imply he had a constant degree of eeman. The fact is Muhammad's eeman got stronger and stronger in time. If you read the Quran chronologically you will be able to sense the incremental phases of Muhammad's eeman from the early phases to the later phases of his life.

Quote:
Despite my explanation that a Muslim does not "practice" pillars of eeman but only Islam, you haven't learnt a thing about eeman. There is no point in you repeating the same again and again that Muslims practice eeman. You won't find even one verse in the Qur'an in which Muslims are commanded to "practice" eeman but only to "have" eeman.
Why should I learn anything or respect your views when you are not credible [not that strong] in your understanding of the Quran.

The problem is you have only read the Quran 6-7 times and that is why you missed out the critical nuances related to eeman [loose and strict sense].
In the Quran Allah exhort all Muslims to increase their degree of islam [submission], eeman [belief/faith], inhsaan and other qualities. Practice islam or eeman imply a Muslim must do the necessary actions to strengthen their islam, eeman, inhsaan and other qualities.

Quote:
I am absolutely straight in this issue. Only the person's strength in eeman changes rather than eeman itself changes.
This is dumb semantics and linguistic. Note my point above.
I have not been discussing in terms of eeman-itself-changes which would imply discussing believing versus disbelieving.
When discussing eeman in this case, we are not messing with disbelieving.
Quote:
Is it (a) the couple in love, (b) love between couple or (c) love in couple?
Can't you see the common denominator is 'love' in relation to a couple.
The only differences in this topic are related to the degree or strength of love between the couples.

Quote:
This is why you can't understand a Muslim's "eeman"; you are ignorant about eeman. Eeman is not practiced but it is to have! It is Islam/Submission that is practiced.
All the scholars of Islam I have read agree with me on my understanding of "eeman" in relation to eeman in the loose sense and eeman in the strict sense re 6 pillars of eeman.

It is a fact eeman which is 'believe', 'beliefs' or 'faith' come in degrees.
There is no way a person can have instant 100% believe, beliefs or faith without practice [loose sense] meaning having mental efforts in the brain.
When a person developed faith in anything there is definitely mental activities. While we do not call this 'practice' in the strict sense, is it nevertheless 'practice' in the loose sense.
It is only after practice in the strict sense that one increases the strength of one's faith in whatever which include eeman in the Islamic perspective.

Quote:
That view is real dumb view because one will never believe without faith (eeman). Therefore it is faith (eeman) that leads one to believe in 6 pillars. This faith (eeman) comes from the ayat of Allah as inspiration/ruh/spirit. It is the ayat that lead one to faith. Strong believing is due to the strength and attribute of the believer (his inherent potential) rather than eeman itself is strong, weak or non-existing.
What a mess!
When one belief or have faith in anything, the process always begin with believe, beliefs and faith of the loose sense, i.e. weak. Then it is only with further actions [elements of 6 pillars of eeman in Islam] that one increase one's believe, beliefs and faith to be stronger in the strict sense.

Quote:
It is even worse to ignore what is in the Qur'an and rely on other sources, to understand what is stated in the Qur'an, that contradict the Qur'an itself.
It is bad logic to insist 'I khalif said so because I am Khalif the great'.
It is the same logic to insist 'What the Quran said is true because the Quran said it itself is true".
That is the fallacy of circularity.
Therefore when there is a need to verify the Quran as a whole we must verify it from objective sources external to the Quran.

Quote:
It has to be evidence from a credible witness. Without any credible witness, judge will have to rely on the word of the accused that s/he is not the murderer.
That is my point.
The prosecutors will produce credible evidences and witness to justify their case.
The judge or jury will rely on them and judge the arguments and evidences presented with justice.
If the evidences are credible, the murderer will be convicted of murder or acquitted if there is insufficient evidence.
As such, the judge and jury will not rely on the denial of the murderer but rely on whatever external evidence is presented by the prosecutor.

Quote:
You keep looking for historical accounts from people that never lived during the historical events, and I don't have to rely on anything that contradicts the Qur'an, the word of the One who is aware of all history.
As I had argued one can depend on merely the arguments of the proposers, i.e. in this case the Quran.
This is why we need to rely on external evidences that align with reality, human nature, historical accounts and whatever is related justifiable knowledge.

Quote:
And if these ailments are not cured, hell will certainly cure all ailments.
My point is to prove that such altered states of consciousness are directly resulted and related to mental illness.
Some difficult cases may not be cured but what is critical is humanity knows the real reasons for those experiences.
Example the medical community can diagnose the type of cancer but they cannot promise a cure for every case, but at least they know the causes or likeliest causes.
Quote:
Why should someone "fear" Allah if it is only respect for Allah? There has to be more than just respect!
I am just differentiating that the fear in relation to the divine is different from other types of fears, e.g. physical threats, etc. If you want more, then use reverence.

Quote:
Where in the Torah and the Gospels is the prophecy about the next messenger that Khajijah was aware of?
As I had argued, when verifying the Quran and Islam as a whole we need to rely on sources of evidence outside the Quran.
In this case we have to resort to other sources regarding Khadijah aware of the prophesized messiah.
Note this subject of the next messiah had been spoken and told for thousands of years since the emergence of Judaism. Therefore it is very possible to the common people during Muhammad's time to be aware of this subject of the next messiah. This subject of the next messiah is also prevalent in other religions.

As for prophesy of the 'next messiah' in the Abrahmic religions and others, note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah


Quote:
Also, why was she 15 years late in saying so? Did she not know Muhammad as the "next messenger" during those 15 years she had been married to him?
It is very common for a person to experience altered states of consciousness suddenly out of the blue during any specific age [10, 30, 50, or later] of their life. Note Paul experienced it out of the blue on the road to Damascus.
In the case of Muhammad he reported his extraordinary frightening experiences of altered states of consciousness to Khadijah 15 years after their marriage. It is likely Muhammad did not have such experiences during that prior 15 years.

Quote:
And most of them were forgotten even during their lifetime.
Yes, most were forgotten because their experiences and consequences were not significant like those of Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mahavira and other religious leaders who have had similar experiences of altered states of consciousness of various degrees.
While most of these religious leaders who have had altered states of consciousness handed down their legacies without significant evil laden elements, it is very unfortunate Muhammad's legacies is tainted and imbued with a significant amounts of evil laden elements.

Quote:
A complete nonsense of report!

I have been up that Mountain and know that no man could have survived coming down that Mountain even during the day time shivering with fear. It was extremely steep and certain death for someone coming down shivering in fear.
Another of your ignorance.
There has been many who were injured within the peak of Mt. Everest and other dangerous areas and they manage to come out alive despite the seriousness.
It was not reported that Muhammad was incapacitated when he was shivering with fears. Besides Muhammad was a frequent visitor to that area.

Quote:
Another nonsense!

There had been no messengers or prophets born in Mecca before Muhammad. Muhammad's family was the Quraish family. Why were THEY not proud of their family member being a prophet?
Ignorance again.
Khadijah has vested interest and was willing to sacrifice her own religion for that.
Muhammad's family and relatives did not have any vested interests and like any normal believers of any other religion, the presentation of another different religion is always sensed as a threat. This is why Muhammad's favored uncle and relatives did not accept him as the prophesized messenger. Such defensive behaviors from believers are very common even at the present and more so from the Quran, Islam and many Muslims.

Look at it this way;
If your 50 years old son suddenly turned up one day and proclaimed he is the next Madhi [re Ahadith not Quran] based on his experiences of some altered states of consciousness etc., would you and your relatives accept him as such.
Top it all he may have learned some magic tricks and perform them or cured someone of an illness via belief and sheer luck.
Maybe his wife will accept him as the next Madhi but you and your relatives who knew his for 40 years and understanding his personality, quirks, good and bad deeds will not likely to agree and accept your son as the prophesized Madhi.

It is the same with Muhammad, he was the local boy known by his family and relatives and most Qureshi in Mecca for forty years. There is no way they could accept the local boy [perhaps naughty, cheeky, etc.] who suddenly out of the blue claimed to be the prophesized messiah.
Their opposition to Muhammad's claim is well documented in the Quran itself [I would not rely totally on such internal reports] but what is helpful is such oppositions [as researched] are very common in such cases in real life where some one claim to be an agent of God.

Quote:
I believe this is all conjecture and what is stated in the Qur'an was written at the time and is the only written record of the time in our possession today that we can rely upon.
I said I am not relying on the historical accounts absolutely but when aligned with real evidence of people experiences of altered states of consciousness based on research lend credibility to my hypothesis.

As I had argued, self-proclamations of the Quran are not facts until proven with justifiable evidence.
In the case of the Quran, there is no convincing proofs God, i.e. Allah exists.
It is commonly admitted and acknowledged religions and in this case Islam is a "faith" based on "faith" which is beliefs without proofs nor justified reasons.

Quote:
The opposite is just as good argument if not better. I do not see my faith is to get rid of or sort out my "psychological problem" but to help me live this life in peace and true happiness that comes with peace in heart and soul. I have never thought that I am guaranteed salvation because I am a Muslim. For salvation, I have to be righteous rather than just Muslim or just a believer in 6 pillars.
I expect you to be ignorant of the reality of why the majority of human beings are inclined to be theists.

Note you are proving my point from your own statement;

You are seeking peace in heart and soul because your heart and soul are not peaceful.
That is due to an internal unavoidable inherent "psychological problem" that is common to all human beings via their DNA.
The fact is whether there is really salvation or not after death is not the critical issue in reality. What is critical at present in reality is you believing [eeman -loose or strict] you will be guaranteed salvation as promised by Allah in the Quran.
The Quran mentioned the Muslim will be "eased" .. towards Peace .. in the "breast," heart and soul.

Yes, that is also my point;
'You have never thought you are guaranteed of salvation' despite Allah promising that guarantee because your eeman [strict] in Allah is not strong enough.
This is where you need my [despite not being a Muslim] help.

Suggest you dig deep and reflect on the loose and strict sense of eeman, then understand the 6 pillars of eeman in essence and details, then do the necessary to cultivate strong eeman [strict] and you will feel a high confidence that your salvation is highly guaranteed. This is all about believe, believing and faith without a need for justifiable evidences at all.
If faith can move mountains it can surely guarantee salvation to the believer.

But note this "guarantee" is only valid based on beliefs and faith within the boundaries of the Quran, Islam and your mind and not beyond it.

It does not work when this guarantee is imposed and interact with external reality, e.g. like, because the Quran guarantee salvation, then a Muslim must fight and kill non-Muslims as condoned in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-13-2016 at 02:31 AM..
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:24 PM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. What is meant by godmen with altered states of consciousness? No one, knew of God before the sending down of Scripture? God is within man; how is it possible, that, man cannot realize God? Some religious people, will whisper into the ear's of a new born, while holding the child aloft "See the only thing greater than yourself." I had mentioned some of my own Spiritual experiences, in my posts on this forum. You want me to be cured by psychiatrists and/or psychologists?? What then would become of my faith?? (not to put down the Medical Profession.)

In these times, the Satan inspired, drive The Only God out of men/women, by wicked talk, debauchery, substance abuse, et cetera. Faith, is inborn in people until it is deliberately (consciously and intentionally; on purpose) shut out. You are in denial, regarding your own faith.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 8:2 has nothing to do with Muhammad specifically. Muhammad as a chosen messenger was a special case and different from the typical believers.

But indirectly 8:2 demonstrate the principle there are degrees in eeman that increases as a believer is more familiar with more ayat which is applicable to Muhammad and other believers.

In general Allah differentiate between believers and disbelievers generally in the loose sense without additional qualifications. So either one is a believer or not a believer, i.e. a disbelievers.

However, in 8:2 Allah is mentioning believers in the stricter sense than in the general sense when the believers are identified by the following;
1. whose hearts are full of fear when Allah is mentioned and
2. His ayat are recited to them they increase them in eeman and
3. in their Lord they trust.

When Allah mentioned 'increase' and the resulting 'trust' that is eeman [beliefs, faith] in the strict sense which is qualified specifically by the elements 1-3.

9:124 support my point.
If Muhammad's eeman were strengthened with more inspirations later, it infer there are degrees of eeman within Muhammad.
If there are degrees, then there must be a starting point.
This starting point could be zero (0) and increase progressively.
It is at this starting point where we delineate between weak and strong eeman.
At its weakest point and eeman in general, eeman is used in the loose sense unless the context imply otherwise.

It is not from the Quran.
In this case I have made reference outside the Quran into reality and historical probabilities.

How can you rely on the Quran as being recited from a real human, i.e. Muhammad if you do not take into account the historical accounts and within reality?
You have no choice but MUST refer to historical accounts [as near as possible] and reality.


In reality and based on various historical accounts,
1. Historical accounts:
Muhammad did not know what eeman was before he has an altered states of consciousness.
There are lots of historical accounts that Muhammad has an altered states of consciousness and what shivering with fears when he first experienced them.
It was Khadijah and others who counselled and soothe Muhammad and convinced him he was the chosen messenger.

2. Reality:
In reality, there are a lot of research on altered states of consciousness in relation to godmen wannabe [s]. These supposedly godmen [prophets, messengers, spiritual leaders] were found to have suffer from some sort of psychiatric ailments and there were cured by psychiatrists and psychologists.
Example;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

Btw, I have linked this video many times.
I suggest you listen to this short video and you can confirm it with further research.

Quote:
The Historical accounts and what is reality in relation to altered states of consciousness that turned them to godmen precede any holy texts, in this case the Quran.
In addition there are no convincing proofs God exists as real.
Since the reality of godmen [prophets, messengers, cult leaders] are well proven from research, it is most likely Muhammad was one of such godmen who led to the emergence of the Quran.
Therefore what the Quran state cannot be taken as truth in reality.
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Old 05-13-2016, 04:42 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are so desperate and blinded that you don't even know your views are kicking your back.
No. It is not my views but your views that are kicking your head, the reason you are desperately trying to prove yourself correct in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you say 'believe' in general is outside Islam, that mean you [not other Muslims] are only believing in your own version of Islam within your own world.
No. Other Muslims know very well that eeman is not loose faith but only precise faith. They also know that you can't reconcile eeman in Allah with general, loose, secular (outside of Islam) believing. My version of Islam is in the Qur'an and your version of believing is outside the Qur'an and, therefore, outside Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is what mental patients [schizophrenics and the likes ] are thinking, i.e. whatever they believe is within their own world which is not reconcilable to greater external reality.
This is what mental patients [schizophrenics and the likes] are thinking, i.e. whatever they believe [loose, general, secular] is the only reality and the rest (the ultimate reality) does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is whatever is supposedly real within Islam must be reconcilable to the greater external reality. If a Muslim cannot reconcile the reality of Islam within the greater external reality than that Muslim is psychotic as with mental patients like schizophrenics and the likes.
Perhaps this is one reason you [perhaps a few others] are the only exceptional ones within the 1.5 billion Muslims who do not agree with the reality of 49:14 & 17.
Only an ignorant about Islam will try to reconcile eeman with no eeman and Muslim with kafir (without eeman). I am sure he will find loose terms to do just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus believe-in-general within the greater external reality must be reconciled first to the believe-in-general then second to believe in the strict sense [6 pillars of eeman] within Islam. There is something wrong with your thoughts if you are not able to reconcile the above.
There is certainly something wrong with your understanding when you can't understand that loose believing in anything in-general (such as idols) is not the same as eeman in Allah. In Islam, the former is the loose believing that is never eeman and the latter is eeman [precise]. You may keep trying to reconcile the two till the cows come home!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The advantage of the above inference is we have lots of real life examples and psychiatric research on those godmen who had experienced altered states of consciousness and claimed they are prophets and various agents of God.
All those real life examples are post Muhammad era. There is no advantage in finding them as such.

[33.40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

No wonder they did not find any of them to be real prophet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore we can use the researched findings and do a parallel with Muhammad's experiences then and based on the actual resulting events and consequences.
There is no parallel with Muhammad's experiences except in an unbelievers loose imagination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Claiming to be a chosen messenger do not necessary require any message to be delivered on behalf of God.
That remark is the clearest evidence so far of your ignorance about the word "messenger" ("rasool") in the Qur'an. Obviously you are still stuck in your loose secular terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Muhammad reported his experiences to Khadijah and thereupon Khadijah and others convinced Muhammad he was the prophesized messenger as reported in the Torah and Injil.
Where is it "reported" in the Torah and Injil that Khadijah became aware of it only now after 15 years of living with such "prophesized messenger"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then the messages came later and confirmed by Allah in the revelations.
And how did Allah confirm so (the verse please)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note: In reality there is no Allah [it is impossible for a God to exists] and the messages received by Muhammad were from his own brain and mind as it is with those researched mental patients.
Funny no mental patient has ever produced such messages since Muhammad! Obviously a mental patient can't and will never be able to do that.

[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a surah like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

When a "mental patient" produced 114 of them over a period of 23 years and no sane person could produce even one surah over that same period, we know who was the sane one and who the mental patients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Once Muhammad was convinced he was the prophesized messenger, he would have cultivated some [albeit low degree] Islamic eeman. It there is none, it does not matter because eventually the eeman will be cultivated in Muhammad over his 22/23 years.
Like any sane person, Muhammad had eeman. Sane people "have" Islamic eeman; only the mental patients imagine that eeman is "cultivated".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Don't be childish in terms of semantics and linguistic in this cases.
Strengthening faith/eeman by person is the same as a person striving to have strong faith/eeman.
Don't be childish in saying that saying the same thing twice means saying twice the same thing.

One does not strive to have strong faith/eeman but one strives to do good deeds because he is strong in eeman/faith. it is not eeman that is strong or weak but the person doing the striving.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Example:
Strengthening one's memory by a person is the same as a person striving to have strong memory.
This is applicable to various types of mental efforts including eeman and believing.
It is not memory (eeman) that is strong or weak but the person is strong or weak in having memory (eeman).

It is like memorizing times table. You are either strong in memorizing the times table or weak. It is not the times table that is strong or weak but the person memorizing it.
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. It is not my views but your views that are kicking your head, the reason you are desperately trying to prove yourself correct in this forum.
Looks like you going down on a freefall without parachutes [no arguments] towards the ground.

I specified the reason for my point why you are kicking your own back while all you do is merely waving words.

Quote:
No. Other Muslims know very well that eeman is not loose faith but only precise faith. They also know that you can't reconcile eeman in Allah with general, loose, secular (outside of Islam) believing. My version of Islam is in the Qur'an and your version of believing is outside the Qur'an and, therefore, outside Islam.
Again you are simply making claims without supporting evidence. Give me evidence to support your 'Other Muslims.'

I have given you various quotes and articles from various Islamic scholars and Muslims that imply eeman in the strict and loose sense in relation to 49:14 & 17 on the issue of 'Muslim versus Mu'min'.


Quote:
This is what mental patients [schizophrenics and the likes] are thinking, i.e. whatever they believe [loose, general, secular] is the only reality and the rest (the ultimate reality) does not exist.
Again you are on a freefall without parachutes.
I have done extensive research on mental patients and their psychology and supported my point on that basis.
You are making the above statements based on ignorance.
Note Scientists [secular] assert the truth of their theory based on the Scientific Method within their own world and reality, but their theory are supported by justifiable evidences and are testable and repeatable objectively by anyone.

Quote:
Only an ignorant about Islam will try to reconcile eeman with no eeman and Muslim with kafir (without eeman). I am sure he will find loose terms to do just that.
A wise and rational person will reconcile every thing to reality and support that reality with proofs based on evidence and justifiable reasons.
Thus there is no problem with reconciling the eeman [faith and beliefs within Islam] of Muslims with faith and beliefs of non-Muslims in the wider real world.
Other than eeman [Islamic], a Muslim as a normal human beings will also engage in faith and beliefs in other non-Islamic matters. When a Muslim seek a Western GP to cure his serious sore throat, that Muslim would have exercised faith and beliefs in that GP to some degrees and this has nothing to do with Islamic eeman.

Quote:
There is certainly something wrong with your understanding when you can't understand that loose believing in anything in-general (such as idols) is not the same as eeman in Allah. In Islam, the former is the loose believing that is never eeman and the latter is eeman [precise]. You may keep trying to reconcile the two till the cows come home!
You are blabbering nonsense here because of denial of the truths of reality.
Note anything that is non-Islamic i.e. not within the Quran cannot be Islamic.
Eeman in Allah cannot be the same with any beliefs that are non-Islamic.

Obviously from the Islamic perspective, praying to idols can never be eeman or Islamic in any way.

When we shift our perspective solely on Islam alone and focus on the concept of eeman [i.e. Islamic beliefs and faith] then we must discuss this concept of eeman in two senses, i.e.
1. Strict, narrow, specific and
2. Loose, broad, general

That is what Allah did in the Quran as I had demonstrated and proven in many posts with the relevant verses in the strict and loose sense.

Quote:
All those real life examples are post Muhammad era. There is no advantage in finding them as such.

[33.40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

No wonder they did not find any of them to be real prophet!
Real prophet is merely your subjective claim because of confirmation bias.
There is no way you will accept the facts and truths of your prophet otherwise your faith will be terrible shaken that can send a believers into shock and make them psycho.

The behaviors of specific mental patients are more or less standard for all time, thus thousands of years before Muhammad.
What happened to Paul was before Muhammad's era and based on accounts of Paul experiences, it is likely Paul suffered from Temporal Epilepsy.

St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy.
St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy.

Did Ezekiel have temporal lobe epilepsy?
Did Ezekiel have temporal lobe epilepsy? - PubMed - NCBI

Note there are a lot of research in the study of the experiences of spiritual men [prophets, etc.] with mental illness who existed long before Muhammad.

Quote:
There is no parallel with Muhammad's experiences except in an unbelievers loose imagination.
This is a mere denial without basis.
You are really ignorant and deliberately will ensure you remain ignorant on such knowledge like an ostrich burying its head in the sand with the hope that the truths will disappear.
If you reconcile Muhammad's pattern behavior with some who claimed to be inspired by God, you will see the parallel. Take Reverend Jim Jones for example and many others.
Other parallels:
http://www.islam-watch.org/home/53-a...jim-jones.html

Quote:
That remark is the clearest evidence so far of your ignorance about the word "messenger" ("rasool") in the Qur'an. Obviously you are still stuck in your loose secular terms.
In context, what I meant is the revelations did not precede one being a Messenger.
One has to be chosen and declared by Allah before any message ensure from Allah.

Quote:
Where is it "reported" in the Torah and Injil that Khadijah became aware of it only now after 15 years of living with such "prophesized messenger"?
You missed the point.
I did not state.
"it is "reported" in the Torah and Injil that Khadijah became aware of it"

I stated Khadijah was aware the Torah and Injil prophesized the coming of the next messiah.
So Khadijah and others convinced Muhammad that he was the prophesized messiah as stated in the Torah and Injil.

Quote:
And how did Allah confirm so (the verse please)?
Note the following;
Khadijah and others convinced Muhammad then he is the messiah before Muhammad received any revelation from Allah. This event is not reported in the Quran but based essentially on historical accounts and other justifications.
Chapter 96 is the supposed first message from Allah.
Muhammad must believed he is the chosen messenger as convinced by Khadijah before he accept the first chapter i.e. Chapter 96 of the revelation as from God and not from a demon.

Otherwise when Muhammad heard 96:1
"96:1. Read! In the name of thy Lord who createth,"
he could easily had asked the voice to shut up if he had not believed he was the chosen messenger of Allah.

Quote:
Funny no mental patient has ever produced such messages since Muhammad! Obviously a mental patient can't and will never be able to do that.
Again you are ignorant on this knowledge.
Mental patients come in a range of types with various degrees. Do research on this topic.
Psychopaths are mental patients and they can be VERY intelligent or even geniuses. Have you heard of the term mad-genius.
7 "Eccentric" Geniuses Who Were Clearly Just Insane | Cracked.com
http://list25.com/25-geniuses-that-c...ey-were-crazy/

Note
Hypergraphia is a behavioral condition characterized by the intense desire to write. Forms of hypergraphia can vary in writing style and content. It is a symptom associated with temporal lobe changes in epilepsy, which is the cause of the Geschwind syndrome, a mental disorder.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad suffered from various mental conditions and wrote many books.
Bahaullah founded Bahai and wrote his own book.
There others who had similar mental experiences from other religions and spiritualities.

[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a surah like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Quote:
When a "mental patient" produced 114 of them over a period of 23 years and no sane person could produce even one surah over that same period, we know who was the sane one and who the mental patients.

Like any sane person, Muhammad had eeman. Sane people "have" Islamic eeman; only the mental patients imagine that eeman is "cultivated".
Comparative to other mainstream religions there is nothing much to brag about with the Quran in terms of spiritual qualities. Amongst all the mainstream religion, the Quran is the lowest in terms of grade of spirituality and this point is supported by all the terrible evils and violence it is associated with.

Quote:
One does not strive to have strong faith/eeman but one strives to do good deeds because he is strong in eeman/faith. it is not eeman that is strong or weak but the person doing the striving.
Note the specific is the strong muscles strength of a person that enable him/her lift extraordinary heavy weights. In this case we also state that person is a strong person but it specifically related to strong muscles and not any thing else.

It is too general to state the person is strong.
If you state a person is strong, that is too general.
If you state a person is strong, you must be specific as to 'strong in what?' otherwise you are bad communicator and will cause confusions.

Therefore in terms of eeman, a Muslim is either weak or strong in eeman, strong in inhsaan and other Islamic properties of a Muslim.

Quote:
It is not memory (eeman) that is strong or weak but the person is strong or weak in having memory (eeman).
Note my example re strong muscles which is more accurate than saying a person is strong which is vague.

Quote:
It is like memorizing times table. You are either strong in memorizing the times table or weak. It is not the times table that is strong or weak but the person memorizing it.
It is stupid to assert 'the times table is strong.'
If a person is good in memorizing the times table, then we say his/her memory is strong or good. It would be ridiculous to say the person is strong.

Note in this scenario;
Say, a group young pupils and their parents are gathered in a math competition that involve skills in arithmetic, i.e. addition, subtracting, dividing and multiplications.
In this case if a mother said to another mother, 'your son's time table is strong' then in this context it is understood the son's skills in multiplication is very good. It would be not effective to say 'your son is strong' as you would insist.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-14-2016 at 02:52 AM..
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Old 05-05-2017, 12:52 AM
 
23 posts, read 8,677 times
Reputation: 10
May Allah save us and bless us with His grace to listen, read, understand, ponder, apply the Holy Quran in our lives and to convey its message to humanity at large.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:46 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedfarhan View Post
May Allah save us and bless us with His grace to listen, read, understand, ponder, apply the Holy Quran in our lives and to convey its message to humanity at large.
Aameen
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