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Old 05-20-2016, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Quran was written by man, probably Muhammed. Let's be real. There is nothing supernatural. No creator of the universe wrote that mess. You want me to ignore reality and start believing in the supernatural. I will not do that.

Will you stop believing in allah and start believing in Scientology?

The hadiths are a large component of Islam and as long as they are so widely used by Islam, I will also use them.

"Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it. Some important elements of traditional Islam, such as the five salat prayers, are mentioned in hadith.[5]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

You can't eat your cake and have it, too.
While it is true the Ahadith play a role in the development of the 4 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) until very recent times they had virtually no part in te life of the average Muslim. They were not general publication and were primarily part of the course curriculum for those studying to be a Lawyer or Mufti.

It has only been in recent years Ahadith collections have beeen available for the general public. Even more recent thay have been translated into languages other than Arabic.
Non-Muslims seem to be the most interested in Ahadith and typically they have no real understanding of what Ahadith are.

Today there are numerous online Hadith sites. What generally is not noted is any detailed instructions regarding Authenticity, Reliability, Chains of Transmition (Isnad) and nearly everything else that is covered in an actual study of hadith.

But as that may be here are some highlights regarding hadith. These are from various disciplines and I am not separating Sunni from Shi'ite from Ahmadiyat from NOI etc.

Just giving a passage I find interesting and a link to the source

A hadith is a saying of Muhammad or a report about something he did. Over time, during the first few centuries of Islam, it became obvious that many so-called hadith were in fact spurious sayings that had been fabricated for various motives, at best to encourage believers to act righteously and at worse to corrupt believers' understanding of Islam and to lead them astray. Since Islamic legal scholars were utilizing hadith as an adjunct to the Qur'an in their development of the Islamic legal system, it became critically important to have reliable collections of hadith. While the early collections of hadith often contained hadith that were of questionable origin, gradually collections of authenticated hadith called sahih (lit. true, correct) were compiled. Such collections were made possible by the development of the science of hadith criticism, a science at the basis of which was a critical analysis of the chain of (oral) transmission (isnad) of the hadith going all the way back to Muhammad. The two most highly respected collections of hadith are the authenticated collections the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. (Sahih literally means "correct, true, valid, or sound.") In addition to these, four other collections came to be well-respected, although not to the degree of Bukhari and Muslim's sahih collections. These four other collections are the Sunan of Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and Abu Da'ud. Together these four and the two sahih collections are called the "six books" (al-kutub al-sitta). Two other important collections, in particular, are the Muwatta of Ibn Malik, the founder of the Maliki school of law, and the Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the founder of the Hanbali school of law.
Hadith and the Prophet Muhammad

Multiple English translations of the Qur'an, Islam's scripture, line shelves at book stores. Amazon.com sells more than a dozen. Because of the growing Muslim communities in English-speaking countries, as well as greater academic interest in Islam, there has been a blossoming in recent years of English translations. Muslims view the Qur'an as God's direct words revealed in Arabic to the Prophet Muhammad (d. 632).[1] Because the Qur'an stresses its Arabic nature, Muslim scholars believe that any translation cannot be more than an approximate interpretation, intended only as a tool for the study and understanding of the original Arabic text.[2] Since fewer than 20 percent of Muslims speak Arabic, this means that most Muslims study the text only in translation. So how accurate are the Qur'an's renderings into English? The record is mixed. Some are simply poor translations. Others adopt sectarian biases, and those that are funded by Saudi Arabia often insert political annotation. Since translators seek to convey not only text but also meaning, many rely on the interpretation (tafsir) of medieval scholars in order to conform to an "orthodox" reading.
Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an :: Middle East Quarterly

The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other.
The Science Of Hadith: A Brief Introduction

The word hadith, according to the dictionary, has several meanings such as “new,” “novel,” “recent,” “modern,” and “speech”, “report,” “account,” and “narrative.” However, in Islamic context, the term hadith means “Prophetic tradition” or “narrative relating deeds and utterances of the Prophet (S).” According to some, even the account of a dream linked with the Holy Prophet (S) is also included in the category of hadith.
Part 1 | Outlines of the Development of the Science of Hadith | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

Imam al-Bukhari’s Fiqh

Imam al-Bukhari’s collection of hadiths is a monumental achievement and an irreplaceable cornerstone of the science of hadith scholarship. Through his work, hadith studies became a science with governing laws that protected the field from innovations and corruptions. However, his Sahih is not just a simple collection of hadiths. Al-Bukhari organized his collection in a way that it can also be used to help deduce rulings within Islamic law – fiqh.

The Sahih is divided into 97 books, each with numerous chapters within it. Each chapter is then titled with a ruling on a particular issue within fiqh. Then within the chapter will be all the hadiths that he considered authentic that support that ruling. For example, the chapter about extra prayer during the month of Ramadan (Taraweeh) is titled “The Superiority of Extra Prayers at Night in Ramadan” and it contains six sayings of the Prophet ﷺ that indicate how important the Taraweeh prayer is.
Lost Islamic History | Imam al-Bukhari and the Science of Hadith

After the Qur'an itself, the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad form the most important foundation of Islamic thought. The hadith were accounts -- usually brief -- of the words and actions of the Prophet. As such, they were subjected to intense scrutiny by generations of Muslim scholars. Better known as the Muqaddimah, Ibn al-Salah (1181-1245) composed this work while serving as the head of the Dar al-Hadith al-Ashrafiya in Damascus, one of the most prestigious institutions for the study of hadith in the Islamic world. Here he provides a complete overview of the science devoted to the study of the words and actions of the Prophet Muhammad, and also a guide to the terminology and techniques of the scholars of hadith as it summarizes most of the previous work on the subject and forms the basis of almost all later activity in the field. The book enjoyed immense popularity and influenced most subsequent writing on the subject.

https://www.kalamullah.com/muqaddimah.html

The whole point being the Hadith are complex and although of high importance in the development of Islamic jurisprudence they are not stand alone studies. The understanding of Hadith is more than just reading any collection of Ahadith. One needs to also know is why it was included, what els is it part of what about it caused it to be included in the collection by the compilier.

also only about 20% of the Worlds Muslims have the ability to read them in the original Arabic and only a very small percentage pf those have been able to take a full course in the study of Ahadith. Unlike the Qur'an learning Ahadith takes teaching by qualified teachers and a full course will take 4 to 6 years. For those not entering into the legal field and just reading compilations is like a person being a lawyer because they once read a law book.

Strangely some of the best schools for studying Islamic Jurisprudence (Hadith) are found in some Western Universities Such as:
Harvard
Islamic Legal Studies Program at Harvard Law School

Oxford
Law - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

University of Texas
UT College of Liberal Arts:

As for studying Islamic law (including Hadith) India has some of the Best universities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...leges_in_India

As does Malaysia, in fact Malaysia seems to be fast becoming one of the best places if one seeks to be a Sharia defense attorney.
27 institutions offering Law courses in Malaysia
27 institutions offering Law courses in Malaysia

Many people especially non-Muslims believe they can learn about Hadith simply by reading an English Translation of Sahih Ahadith
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:09 AM
 
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The importance of the hadiths can be seen in the Quran. Muhammed is supposedly the perfect example to follow, according to Muhammed's own writing in the Quran. (What an ego!) So, how did Muhammed act? That is told in the hadiths.

Muhammed writes:

33.21 Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

The problem is, Muhammed did some really evil things as documented in the hadiths. So naturally Muslims want to cover this up! Actually, it is good that there are Muslims who are ashamed of Muhammed's actions, although they still consider Muhammed their prophet and defend any evil he did. And there was a LOT of evil.

So, a typical excuse from Muslims is that the hadiths are 'weak'...of course the ones that show Muhammed being evil are the weak hadiths. The trouble is, there is so much evil and it is so well documented that Muslims often find themselves in a corner. Then other excuses come to light.

For example, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child when he was 53 years old. By any rational moral code, this is an abomination. Evil. But Muslims first deny it and when silenced by a mountain of evidence, they turn to other excuses: 9 years old was a mature women, everyone was doing it, Aisha wanted sex at 9, it was political, it was the custom, Aisha had her first period so it was OK, etc, etc.

Muslims will also excuse the mass rapes, the terrorism, the slavery, the demands to slaughter people who spoke against Muhammed, etc, etc....which are all clearly documented in the hadiths.

It is the hadiths that tell us what Muhammed did and said.
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true the Ahadith play a role in the development of the 4 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) until very recent times they had virtually no part in the life of the average Muslim.
They were not general publication and were primarily part of the course curriculum for those studying to be a Lawyer or Mufti.
The statement in bold is a false view.

It is the Quran-Only group [Khalif has similar views] that reject the Ahadiths and rely solely on the Quran as the authority of Islam. This group hardly make up 1% of all Muslims [let me know if you have reliable estimates of their numbers].
Who are Submitters and what is Submission?
Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

The fact is the Sunni, Shia, Ahamdiyas, Sufi make up of almost 98% of all Muslims and their doctrine are grounded on the Quran and the Ahadith. This group accept the authenticated Ahadiths has divine authority.

While the majority of this Quran-Ahadith group do not read the Ahadiths, they are nevertheless VERY strongly influenced by their experts and scholars who are obliged to guide all their members based on the Quran and the Ahadith. You cannot deny this fact.

Therefore the Ahadith has an indirect and effective role in the life of 98%++ of all Muslims. The additional problem is the Ahadith amplified the evil laden elements in the Quran and add its own which is not from the Quran.

The 20% of evil prone Muslims from this Quran-Ahadith group are influenced [indirectly by their evil prone scholars] by the voluminous amounts of evil laden elements in the Quran, Ahadith and Muhammad's martial ethos to commit terrible evils and violence.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The importance of the hadiths can be seen in the Quran. Muhammed is supposedly the perfect example to follow, according to Muhammed's own writing in the Quran. (What an ego!) So, how did Muhammed act? That is told in the hadiths.

Muhammed writes:

33.21 Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

The problem is, Muhammed did some really evil things as documented in the hadiths. So naturally Muslims want to cover this up! Actually, it is good that there are Muslims who are ashamed of Muhammed's actions, although they still consider Muhammed their prophet and defend any evil he did. And there was a LOT of evil.

So, a typical excuse from Muslims is that the hadiths are 'weak'...of course the ones that show Muhammed being evil are the weak hadiths. The trouble is, there is so much evil and it is so well documented that Muslims often find themselves in a corner. Then other excuses come to light.

For example, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child when he was 53 years old. By any rational moral code, this is an abomination. Evil. But Muslims first deny it and when silenced by a mountain of evidence, they turn to other excuses: 9 years old was a mature women, everyone was doing it, Aisha wanted sex at 9, it was political, it was the custom, Aisha had her first period so it was OK, etc, etc.

Muslims will also excuse the mass rapes, the terrorism, the slavery, the demands to slaughter people who spoke against Muhammed, etc, etc....which are all clearly documented in the hadiths.

It is the hadiths that tell us what Muhammed did and said.

While very much of what you said is true it misses some important elements such as what a hadith is.

A very important thing to keep in mind is every hadith is a personal observation related as they remember it to have occurred. Also one needs tp understand how and why the compilier made it part of his compilation. We also need to be aware that only part will be related in a particular category.

Using Bukhari as an example, as he established the rules/

Bukhari Named 93 categories to be addressed. He collectec over 600,000 Ahadith (The plural of Hadith) No hadith is a complete statement in it self. Most are parts of a much longer observation and discussion. To understand what a hadith is to cover one needs to know which Book Bukhari included it in. also one must be aware that will only be the part of what was said that is applicable to that Book. Of the 600,000 ahadith Bukhari collected over his lifetime Of those he used 2602 in his books. Although his books contain total of 7,e97 Ahadith there is much dublication and many of them are applicable to more then one topic. He only used ahadith applicable to one or more of his 93 books and only used the ones he was able to personally trace the chain of narration back to the original witness.


Sahih Muslim divided the Ahadith into 43 Books. One very common error non-Muslims use is to use Muslim 3371 or 3372 to claim that Muhammad(saws) did not forbid the raping of captive. What they fail to understand that this is in book 8 which are related to marriage only. only the parts that are related to marriage are contained inthis book. Muslim found 18 things attributed to coitus interruptis these he labelled as 3371-3388 and placed them in Book 8, the Book of Marrige. these are weak in regards to using them as ahadith regarding the tratment of Captives as the book does not address that topic. to learn about Ahatithregarding the tratment of captives one should refer to the appropriate books Books, 17 (Punishments), 19 (war), 25 (General Behavior), 32(virtue), none of themcontain any conditions under Which it is permissable to rape captives. For further information one should read Buhanari's books 43 (Oppression), 52(Jihad), 59 (Military expeditions) 81(Linits and punishments) again you will not find anyplace permitting the rape of captives.

None of the Ahadith collections contain any ahadith that can be considered the full narration about a specific event or or lecture etc. It is only the portion relating to the specific book the compiler categorized it under.

the proper way to use hadith is to use them as a guide to see what Muhammd(saws) did or said in relation to specific topics, and to keep in mind the hadith will only contain the parts related to that particular topic. none of the Ahadith are do all phrases, they only contain the parts relating to the book it is in. None of the Ahadith can be considered verification of anything other than the topic (Book) they are included in.

Sahih Muslim used Sahih Bukhari as it's primary source. Muslim was a student of Bukhari and assisted Bukhari in his compilation. Muslim's 43 basically cover some topics Bukhari did not address. Like Bukhari the ahadith have all been personally traced back to the original source. Bukhari and Muslim are the only 2 collections in which every hadith was personally verified back to the original source. but even there caution is still advised as none are any more accurate than the memory of the witness.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-21-2016 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 05-21-2016, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
While it is true the Ahadith play a role in the development of the 4 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) until very recent times they had virtually no part in the life of the average Muslim.
They were not general publication and were primarily part of the course curriculum for those studying to be a Lawyer or Mufti.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The statement in bold is a false view.

It is the Quran-Only group [Khalif has similar views] that reject the Ahadiths and rely solely on the Quran as the authority of Islam. This group hardly make up 1% of all Muslims [let me know if you have reliable estimates of their numbers].
Who are Submitters and what is Submission?
Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

The fact is the Sunni, Shia, Ahamdiyas, Sufi make up of almost 98% of all Muslims and their doctrine are grounded on the Quran and the Ahadith. This group accept the authenticated Ahadiths has divine authority.

While the majority of this Quran-Ahadith group do not read the Ahadiths, they are nevertheless VERY strongly influenced by their experts and scholars who are obliged to guide all their members based on the Quran and the Ahadith. You cannot deny this fact.

Therefore the Ahadith has an indirect and effective role in the life of 98%++ of all Muslims. The additional problem is the Ahadith amplified the evil laden elements in the Quran and add its own which is not from the Quran.

The 20% of evil prone Muslims from this Quran-Ahadith group are influenced [indirectly by their evil prone scholars] by the voluminous amounts of evil laden elements in the Quran, Ahadith and Muhammad's martial ethos to commit terrible evils and violence.
Matter of our individual personal opinions as to the influence the Ahadith had in the lives of individual Muslims.

What had the impact is the teachings by individual scholars, which may not have always been in accordance with the Ahadith.

While the madhabs have a strong influence on the average Muslim the secondary source of the 4 Madhabs is the Sunnah not the Ahadith although some of the sunnah may have been interpolated from the Ahadith most of it came from the traditions passed down from the Sahabah.

The strong influence of the Ahadith upon individual Muslims is the result of translations becoming more availabe. even so many Muslims (Not the majority) reject the Ahadith completely. while most Sunni consider the Hadith to be the Kytub Sittah (Six Books) None Sunni Muslims do not agree and use other books. also only sunni consider Bukhari and Muslim to be Sahih. Shi'ites for instance consider all Ahadith relating to Aisha to be false. and remove all reference to her and use an additional 6 books. I am not certain what Deobandi use as a source of Ahadith, but Deobondi I have personally known often quoted some very odd and bizarre Ahadith that could not have occured during the live time of Muhammad(saws) There have probably been several hundred collections of Ahadith made, some of which containing Ahadith fabricated as recently as the 20th century.
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Old 05-21-2016, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Matter of our individual personal opinions as to the influence the Ahadith had in the lives of individual Muslims.

What had the impact is the teachings by individual scholars, which may not have always been in accordance with the Ahadith.

While the madhabs have a strong influence on the average Muslim the secondary source of the 4 Madhabs is the Sunnah not the Ahadith although some of the sunnah may have been interpolated from the Ahadith most of it came from the traditions passed down from the Sahabah.

The strong influence of the Ahadith upon individual Muslims is the result of translations becoming more availabe. even so many Muslims (Not the majority) reject the Ahadith completely. while most Sunni consider the Hadith to be the Kytub Sittah (Six Books) None Sunni Muslims do not agree and use other books. also only sunni consider Bukhari and Muslim to be Sahih. Shi'ites for instance consider all Ahadith relating to Aisha to be false. and remove all reference to her and use an additional 6 books. I am not certain what Deobandi use as a source of Ahadith, but Deobondi I have personally known often quoted some very odd and bizarre Ahadith that could not have occured during the live time of Muhammad(saws) There have probably been several hundred collections of Ahadith made, some of which containing Ahadith fabricated as recently as the 20th century.
Quote:
While the madhabs have a strong influence on the average Muslim the secondary source of the 4 Madhabs is the Sunnah not the Ahadith although some of the sunnah may have been interpolated from the Ahadith most of it came from the traditions passed down from the Sahabah.
Are you implying there is a big difference between the Ahadith and the Sunnah?
What is the distinct difference between the Sunnah and the Ahadith?

Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad's companions.

A hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīṯ, plural: hadithat, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīṯ[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic meaning a "report", "account" or "narrative".
Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it.

Your view, i.e. Madhab depend on Sunnah rather than the Ahadith is in conflict with above wiki articles [noted the bolded].

Quote:
Matter of our individual personal opinions as to the influence the Ahadith had in the lives of individual Muslims.

What had the impact is the teachings by individual scholars, which may not have always been in accordance with the Ahadith.
The main issue and problem is this;

1. More that 55% of the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.
2. This 55% of evil laden elements are imbued into the Ahadith and Sunnah.
3. The Ahadith and Sunnah contain evil laden elements from the Quran with emphasis and exaggerations plus additional evil laden elements which are not from the Quran.
4. The evil laden elements in the Quran and Ahadiths intensify and increase the evil tendencies of evil prone Muslims who adopt the Ahadith.
5. 20% of All Humans thus Muslims as well are evil prone.

6. The evil prone scholars and other influencers will influence the 20% of evil prone Muslims.

7. Note no Islamic Scholars will dare to deviate from what they understand is from the Quran and the Ahadith. Therefore the problem here is the Quran and Ahadith not the fault of the scholars. The God fearing Scholars will sincerely obey what is in the Quran and the Ahadiths.

Show me examples [significant] where Islamic scholars are not interpreting in accordance to the authentic Ahadiths?
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Are you implying there is a big difference between the Ahadith and the Sunnah?
What is the distinct difference between the Sunnah and the Ahadith?

Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad's companions.

A hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīṯ, plural: hadithat, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīṯ[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic meaning a "report", "account" or "narrative".
Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it.

Your view, i.e. Madhab depend on Sunnah rather than the Ahadith is in conflict with above wiki articles [noted the bolded].

The main issue and problem is this;

1. More that 55% of the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.
2. This 55% of evil laden elements are imbued into the Ahadith and Sunnah.
3. The Ahadith and Sunnah contain evil laden elements from the Quran with emphasis and exaggerations plus additional evil laden elements which are not from the Quran.
4. The evil laden elements in the Quran and Ahadiths intensify and increase the evil tendencies of evil prone Muslims who adopt the Ahadith.
5. 20% of All Humans thus Muslims as well are evil prone.

6. The evil prone scholars and other influencers will influence the 20% of evil prone Muslims.

7. Note no Islamic Scholars will dare to deviate from what they understand is from the Quran and the Ahadith. Therefore the problem here is the Quran and Ahadith not the fault of the scholars. The God fearing Scholars will sincerely obey what is in the Quran and the Ahadiths.

Show me examples [significant] where Islamic scholars are not interpreting in accordance to the authentic Ahadiths?
the ahadith are Sunnah. But just a small part of Sunnah. Must of the Sunnah was never written and is only preserved in the traditions practiced since the time of the Sahabah.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the ahadith are Sunnah. But just a small part of Sunnah. Must of the Sunnah was never written and is only preserved in the traditions practiced since the time of the Sahabah.
OK, noted your point.

However my original intended point still stand with some corrections;

The main issue and problem is this;

1. More that 55% of the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.
2. This 55% of evil laden elements are imbued into the Ahadith and Sunnah of the Madhabs.
3. The Ahadith and Sunnah contain evil laden elements from the Quran with emphasis and exaggerations plus additional evil laden elements which are not from the Quran.
4. The evil laden elements in the Quran, Sunnah & Ahadiths intensify and increase the evil tendencies of evil prone Muslims who adopt any of the Madhabs.
5. 20% of All Humans thus Muslims as well are evil prone.

6. The evil prone scholars [from the Madhabs with Sunnah and Ahadiths] will influence the 20% of evil prone Muslims.

7. Note no Islamic Scholars will dare to deviate from what they understand is from the Quran, Sunnah and the authentic Ahadith.

8. Therefore the problem here is the Quran, Sunnah and Ahadith [authentic], not the fault of the scholars. The God fearing Scholars will sincerely obey what is in the Quran, accepted Sunnah and the Ahadiths of their respective Madhabs.
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:19 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sahih Muslim divided the Ahadith into 43 Books. One very common error non-Muslims use is to use Muslim 3371 or 3372 to claim that Muhammad(saws) did not forbid the raping of captive. What they fail to understand that this is in book 8 which are related to marriage only. only the parts that are related to marriage are contained inthis book. Muslim found 18 things attributed to coitus interruptis these he labelled as 3371-3388 and placed them in Book 8, the Book of Marrige. these are weak in regards to using them as ahadith regarding the tratment of Captives as the book does not address that topic. to learn about Ahatithregarding the tratment of captives one should refer to the appropriate books Books, 17 (Punishments), 19 (war), 25 (General Behavior), 32(virtue), none of themcontain any conditions under Which it is permissable to rape captives. For further information one should read Buhanari's books 43 (Oppression), 52(Jihad), 59 (Military expeditions) 81(Linits and punishments) again you will not find anyplace permitting the rape of captives.
You are doing just what I said: trying to make excuses for what you know deep down is evil...the rape of captive women by Muhammed and his men with the approval of allah.

The hadith, several of them, say that Muhammed's men did rape captive women with allah's/muhammed's approval.

The Quran does give men possession of captive women and slaves. To marry or have sex with and show their private parts to.

Those are the facts as stated by the Quran and hadiths. Wiggle and spin all you want....those are the facts according to Islam and today we see Muslims raping and enslaving based on it.
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The statement in bold is a false view.

It is the Quran-Only group [Khalif has similar views] that reject the Ahadiths and rely solely on the Quran as the authority of Islam. This group hardly make up 1% of all Muslims [let me know if you have reliable estimates of their numbers].
Who are Submitters and what is Submission?
Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

The fact is the Sunni, Shia, Ahamdiyas, Sufi make up of almost 98% of all Muslims and their doctrine are grounded on the Quran and the Ahadith. This group accept the authenticated Ahadiths has divine authority.

While the majority of this Quran-Ahadith group do not read the Ahadiths, they are nevertheless VERY strongly influenced by their experts and scholars who are obliged to guide all their members based on the Quran and the Ahadith. You cannot deny this fact.

Therefore the Ahadith has an indirect and effective role in the life of 98%++ of all Muslims. The additional problem is the Ahadith amplified the evil laden elements in the Quran and add its own which is not from the Quran.

The 20% of evil prone Muslims from this Quran-Ahadith group are influenced [indirectly by their evil prone scholars] by the voluminous amounts of evil laden elements in the Quran, Ahadith and Muhammad's martial ethos to commit terrible evils and violence.
The largest group being Sunni nearly 90% of Muslims being Sunni of which 30% follow the Hanafi Madhab, which places virtually no emphasis on the Ahadith Smallest Madhab being the Hanbali which make about 1% of the Sunni Place the most emphasis on the Ahadith. .

Qur'an only with no emphasis on the ahadith and follow no Madhab form up to 50% of the Sunni it is almost impossible to get an exact figure However typically if they do not claim adherence to a Madhab they are Qur'an only also called "ahsan ahadith"looking at the number of people claiming to be Ahsan Ahadith and those that are not Sunni or Shi'ite the Ahadith are not having as much influence as I expected.

The Ahmadiyya seem to be somewhat selective about the Ahadith. From an Ahmadiyya site:

112. Are all the recorded reports in Hadith true and genuine?

No, not every single one. The people who passed on these reports by word of mouth before they were compiled made mistakes in some cases. There are also some reported sayings written down in books of Hadith which the Holy Prophet may not have ever said at all. However, the bulk of the reports, especially those contained in Bukhari and Muslim, are genuine. The teachings which the Holy Prophet illustrated by his example (such as how to perform the prayers) were copied by such a large number of people that there cannot be any doubt at all about their genuineness. Similarly, many of his Sayings were memorized and passed down by a number of Companions in each case, not by just one person, and became well*known among the Muslims from the beginning.

113. Is it necessary for a Muslim to believe in and follow Hadith?

Yes, especially the part relating to the observance of religion and to practical life. It must always be remembered, however, that Hadith is meant to be a further explanation of the teachings of the Holy Quran. Any report in Hadith books which appears to go against the Holy Quran must be examined carefully to see if it can be given a meaning not contradicting the Holy Book, and if not, it must be rejected.
6. The Hadith

It does appear that most Muslims either reject the Ahadith or are skeptical of it. the Ahadith do not seem to have much influence for most Muslims.

Sufi vary considerably some sufi are Sunni, some claim to be non-Sunni and some are not Muslims there are even Atheist Sufi groups. My first year as a Muslim I followed the Sufi path as a Sunni. Sufi'ism was my Madhab, but I was Sunni.


Here are some links to various groups that are very adamant about being Qur'an only


Quran is Ahsan Hadith (39:23) & Ahsan Tafseer (25:33) - Quran & Hadith -

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

How I Came To Quran Alone Islam : I Converting to Islam Story & Experience

Quran Alone Is More Than Enough

Follow the Quran

Why Quran alone?

Make Quran your only guide, Dr M tells Muslims | Malaysia | Malay Mail Online


The more I look the more I find that the majority of Muslims reject the Ahadith
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