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Old 05-26-2016, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post


The more I look the more I find that the majority of Muslims reject the Ahadith
I have spoken to literally thousands of Muslims and this is what I am finding.

Most deny what is written in the hadiths. For example, that Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child which is documented in hadiths many times. When I ask them about this they flat out deny that Muhammed did this. (You do, also.) When I show them verse after verse, something interesting happens. They show no surprise whatsoever! Not one of them! If, for example, someone showed me verses in the bible where Jesus had sex with a child, I would be shocked! I would say "Holy smokes, I never knew this! Thank you for telling me!! I will do more research!" They NEVER EVER say that.

Instead they go straight to excuses. Aisha wanted it, it was custom, girls matured faster, Allah said to do it, it formed a family bond, etc. A very few, like you, simply dispute the many accounts.

The same thing happens with the rapes, with wife beating, with slavery, etc. There is denial and then excuses. But never surprise. And that surprises me greatly. It was like they already knew and denial was the first line of defense.

I do not find any rejection of hadiths as a whole. Just a pretty rare rejection of the verses they do not like.

What alarms me is the mindless and vehement defense of anything Muhammed is said to have done. Here I am defending the right of a child not to be raped by a man, using evidence straight from Islam, and I am hit with hate and death threats and support for sex with children. Forget for the moment if the hadiths are right or wrong....they are important and from Islam and any non-Muslim reading them will come to the same conclusion I did. Yet Muslims don't applaud me for my moral stance against pedophilia, they defend the pedophile!

I can say that slavery, beating women, men having sex with children and murder is WRONG no matter who does it...jews, jesus, muhammed, michael jackson...no matter WHEN it is done, or what the 'culture' is.....it's EVIL.

But MUSLIMS can't say that muhammed was wrong for having sex with a child, or anything else. MUSLIMS cannot judge evil because of their mindless 'faith' and 'total submission'. Muhammed/Allah is above moral judgment. That means ANYTHING Muhammed did is good. No matter how evil. And that scares the hell out of me.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I have spoken to literally thousands of Muslims and this is what I am finding.

Most deny what is written in the hadiths. For example, that Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child which is documented in hadiths many times. When I ask them about this they flat out deny that Muhammed did this. (You do, also.) When I show them verse after verse, something interesting happens. They show no surprise whatsoever! Not one of them! If, for example, someone showed me verses in the bible where Jesus had sex with a child, I would be shocked! I would say "Holy smokes, I never knew this! Thank you for telling me!! I will do more research!" They NEVER EVER say that.

Instead they go straight to excuses. Aisha wanted it, it was custom, girls matured faster, Allah said to do it, it formed a family bond, etc. A very few, like you, simply dispute the many accounts.

The same thing happens with the rapes, with wife beating, with slavery, etc. There is denial and then excuses. But never surprise. And that surprises me greatly. It was like they already knew and denial was the first line of defense.

I do not find any rejection of hadiths as a whole. Just a pretty rare rejection of the verses they do not like.

What alarms me is the mindless and vehement defense of anything Muhammed is said to have done. Here I am defending the right of a child not to be raped by a man, using evidence straight from Islam, and I am hit with hate and death threats and support for sex with children. Forget for the moment if the hadiths are right or wrong....they are important and from Islam and any non-Muslim reading them will come to the same conclusion I did. Yet Muslims don't applaud me for my moral stance against pedophilia, they defend the pedophile!

I can say that slavery, beating women, men having sex with children and murder is WRONG no matter who does it...jews, jesus, muhammed, michael jackson...no matter WHEN it is done, or what the 'culture' is.....it's EVIL.

But MUSLIMS can't say that muhammed was wrong for having sex with a child, or anything else. MUSLIMS cannot judge evil because of their mindless 'faith' and 'total submission'. Muhammed/Allah is above moral judgment. That means ANYTHING Muhammed did is good. No matter how evil. And that scares the hell out of me.
We can not say Muhammad(saws) raped or beat Aisha. Because He never did either.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We can not say Muhammad(saws) raped or beat Aisha. Because He never did either.
That is your opinion. The hadiths say differently. And my years of working with abused children tells me 9 year old little girls do not want sex with 53 year old men.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:57 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We can not say Muhammad(saws) raped or beat Aisha. Because He never did either.
I want to say more here. You have seen all the verses. An appropriate response from you to me would be:

"I am also horrified at these verses! No man should be having sex with a child and if Muhammed did so he was a very evil man. I personally think these hadiths are wrong, but I do appreciate your stance against men having sex with a child. I can certainly see why you would think that Muhammed did this."

But that is not what you say. Why don;t you appreciate that I am against men having sex with children? Why does no Muslim appreciate that? Instead all the defense is for Muhammed - and the evidence that is available does say he did this horrible thing.

Or do you think it is OK for a 53 year old man to have sex with a 4th grader?

According to ISLAM (not me) Muhammed hit Aisha. According to Islam (not me) Muhammed watched someone slapping Aisha and did nothing. I read this! What am I supposed to think??
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I want to say more here. You have seen all the verses. An appropriate response from you to me would be:

"I am also horrified at these verses! No man should be having sex with a child and if Muhammed did so he was a very evil man. I personally think these hadiths are wrong, but I do appreciate your stance against men having sex with a child. I can certainly see why you would think that Muhammed did this."

But that is not what you say. Why don;t you appreciate that I am against men having sex with children? Why does no Muslim appreciate that? Instead all the defense is for Muhammed - and the evidence that is available does say he did this horrible thing.

Or do you think it is OK for a 53 year old man to have sex with a 4th grader?

According to ISLAM (not me) Muhammed hit Aisha. According to Islam (not me) Muhammed watched someone slapping Aisha and did nothing. I read this! What am I supposed to think??
The only thing I see is that you assume we believe all ahadith to be accurate portrayals.

In regards to the Ahadith regarding Aisha nearly everyone if not all trce their Isnad bact to Hisham who met Aiasha before he was 10 years old and she would have been near 60 or in her 60s at the time. he did not write what he recalled hearing Aisha tell him until he was over 70 years old. Others have quoted from Hisham for their Ahadith regarding Aisha. There are very few Ahadith about Aisha that do not trace their origin back to Hisham and those that don;t originate from Hisham make no mention of her age,

We actually have no knowledge of what Aisha's age actually was. All indications outside the Ahadith that originated from Hisham indicate she would have been at least 20 years old. the strongest indicator is because she remembered the pre-Islamic era. Which ended in 610 AD, the Marriage to Muhammad(saws) took place in 619. If she had memories of events prior to 610 she most likely was at least 5-10 years old at the time and probably older.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:51 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The only thing I see is that you assume we believe all ahadith to be accurate portrayals.
Yes, I have heard it all before and all these excuses have been thrashed. From wikiislam, which had to be taken down because of all the Muslim death threats, so I cannot give a link:

Muhammad did not have sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 6 years-old[edit]
This is a strawman argument. No one of any note has claimed Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 6 years-old. It was only their marriage that took place when she was aged 6. Sexual intercourse occurred when she was 9 lunar years-old (possibly 8 years-old if the Gregorian calender is used to calculate her age).

The Qur'an does not say Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9[edit]
The Qur'an is not a biography of Muhammad. By name, he is only mentioned 4 times in the Qur'an.[1] The Qur'an is not a historical narrative and without the Hadiths and Sirat (which are accepted by the majority of the world's Muslims and Islamic scholars) there would be no Five Pillars, Islam as Muslims know it would be unrecognizable, and there would be little[2] to no historical evidence that a person known as Prophet Muhammad ever existed. Therefore they cannot be ignored. Furthermore, the Qur'an itself permits pedophilia in verse 65:4.[3]

Allah's purpose for the marriage was not sex, Aisha was a great scholar who narrated important hadiths[edit]
There is no purpose of an Islamic marriage (nikah) if there will be no sex between the couple. If 54 year old Muhammad did not want to have sex with 9 year old Aisha but wanted to keep her in his house, he could easily have adopted her as his grand-daughter instead. He already had an adopted son.

And even if we were to accept the marriage as a result of Allah's foreknowledge, it still does not explain why he could not foretell that millions of young girls today would face pedophilic child marriages, explicitly using Muhammad and Aisha's relationship as justification.[4][5][6][7][8]

The hadiths do not say Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9. They have been poorly translated[edit]
In multiple sahih hadiths, as discussed in this article, the Arabic terms used are "udkhilath" and "bana biha", which in their context can only be referring to "sexual intercourse" and nothing else.

There is 1 hadith that says Aisha "never saw the private parts of Muhammad"[edit]
The hadith being referred to is found in Sunan Ibn Majah. This collection of hadith (containing Arabic text alongside its English translation) can be purchased in book form or freely viewed on the Internet, and has a unique and useful feature that separates it from other hadith collections. Each narration "is also followed by its status in regards to the authenticity."[9]

The hadith concerning Aisha "never seeing the private parts of Muhammad" has been classed as da'if,[10] meaning it is weak. And weak hadiths hold no authority in Islam and have no value for the purpose of formulating shari'ah.[11] Since those who use this hadith for apologetic purposes will be aware of its status as weak,[12] the omission of this crucial detail may be considered by some as disingenuous.

Additionally, the hadiths that confirm Aisha consummated her marriage are mutawatir ('corroborated'), meaning the same narrations (either with minor variation or word-for-word) have been passed down through different isnads (chains).

When the same/similar narration is passed down through multiple isnads, then it is of higher authenticity than one which may be reported through a lesser number of isnads (especially if they contradict). This classification can be joined with other classifications; for example, if a narration were both 'sahih' and 'mutawatir' then it is of the highest authenticity regarding classification of ahadith.

Since all the most authentic collections confirm that the relationship between Muhammad and Aisha was a sexual one, this lone, weak hadith can be ignored.

The idea that Aisha was a virgin her entire life is an alien one to Islam, and if we were to be as "difficult" and/or disingenuous as the apologists appear to be, we could always point out that, literally speaking, there is no need to "see the private parts" of anyone in order to have sex with them.

There are also hadith which tell us Muhammad had sex with all (9 to 11) of his wives in one night,[13][14] and Sauda (who was fat)[15] gave up her night of sex to Aisha.[16] Are we now to believe he was in fact not having sex with them, but reading them bedtime stories or engaging in some other evening activity?

There are also sahih narations which tell us that Muhammad's first encounter with Aisha following her admittance into his house "surprised" her,[17] that she used to wash and scrape off the semen from his clothes,[18][19] and that he used to fondle her and suck her tongue.[20][21]

Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her[edit]
All authentic sources of Aisha’s own testimony confirm she was aged nine at the time. These alternate ages have been derived from misquotations, indirect sources, fuzzy dating techniques, and slander, in an attempt to cast doubt upon facts which have been unquestionably accepted by Muslims for almost 1,500 years.

Even today, the vast majority of the world's Muslims acknowledge and accept Aisha's young age and many of these honest Muslims take offense to these lies propagated by western Muslim apologists who are embarrassed by their own prophet's actions. In fact, Islamic scholar and teacher of Fiqh at Sunnipath.com and Livingislam.org, Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad's work has been referenced in our refutation to all these claims, which you can read here.

Muhammad waited for 3 years so Aisha could attain puberty before having sex with her[edit]
Playing with dolls and similar images is forbidden in Islam, unless you are a child who has yet to reach the age of puberty.[22][23] Thus, the doll-playing exegesis applied to the relevant hadith narrations prove that Aisha remained pre-pubertal at the time of consummation.

Muhammad made an exception for Aisha by allowing her to play with dolls even after puberty[edit]
This is purely wishful thinking that ultimately backfires on the user because it assumes Muhammad, the perfect Muslim whose example is to be emulated, defied Allah by not adhering to his sacred law (the Shar'iah).

Unless Allah clearly specified an exemption for Muhammad, he would have followed the rules governing doll-playing in Islam. Claiming otherwise only makes Muhammad into a hypocrite and a bad example for other Muslims to follow.

Menstruation in hot climates starts earlier than in cold ones, so girls in Arabia matured as early as 9[edit]
There is absolutely no evidence that climate has anything to do with the onset of menarche/puberty.[24][25] In many instances the truth is the opposite of what apologists claim. For example, the mean ages at menarche for Denmark, Finland and the United Kingdom are 13.0, 13.2 and 13.3. In comparison, the mean ages at menarche for Senegal, Tanzania and Yemen are 16.1, 15.21 and 14.4.[24]

For girls in the Medieval (5th to 15th century) Middle East, the average age at menarche was between 12 to 13 years of age, not 9. In fact, the average age at menarche for Medieval Europeans was very similar, at 12 to 14 years of age.[26]

In 1 hadith Aisha says "When a girl is nine years old, she is a woman (meaning, she has attained puberty)"[edit]
If we were to accept this interpretation made by apologists, it would mean Aisha is also making an incorrect blanket statement. Not many girls go through puberty at the age of 9, especially in the Middle East during Aisha's lifetime,[26] yet she appears to be claiming all 9 year-olds go through puberty. So the only conclusion that can be drawn from this erroneous interpretation is that this "great scholar of Islam" was stupid.

If we take a rational approach to reaching conclusions, we can clearly see this alleged narration does not prove Aisha had attained puberty. "she has attained puberty" is written in parenthesis, meaning it was added by the translator and was not taken from the original source.

She was also a young child who had been sexually defiled at the age of nine, so obviously she would consider that moment in time to have been the moment when she went from being a child to becoming a women. Her statement had absolutely nothing to do with attaining puberty.

Why did Muhammad wait for 3 years if it was not so Aisha could attain puberty?[edit]
According to Bukhari, Aisha fell ill and lost her hair after her marriage/engagement to Muhammad at the age of six. The same hadith also confirms that she was "handed over to him" once her hair grew back.[27] Since Bukhari is Sahih (authentic), we have no reason to dismiss this explanation.

Also according to Tabari (a less reliable, yet widely respected and accepted source among Muslims), the delay was due to Muhammad not having the gold to pay the sadaq.[28]

One thing we can be sure of is that the delay had nothing to do with her pubertal status, as such an important issue would not have gone without some commentary by the early Islamic sources and it would have also contradicted Muhammad's Qur'anic revelation which sanctions pedophilia.

If Muhammad was a pedophile, he would still not have waited 3 years to have sex with Aisha[edit]
It is not unusual for a pedophile to know his intended child partner for some years before initiating sexual contact. This is known as "grooming". A survey by the Mayo Clinic revealed heterosexual male pedophiles preferred girls in the age range of 8-10 years (Aisha was 9), and frequently met them when they were even younger.[29]

Also, if we take Bukhari's explanation into consideration, it makes perfect sense. A pedophile would not want to have sex with an ill child if he thinks he is going to catch some sort of disease from doing so.

If Muhammad was a pedophile, Aisha's parents would not have offered her to him[edit]
Aisha's parents did not offer her to Muhammad. It was in fact Muhammad who approached Abu Bakr, and he (Aisha's father) initially protested.[30]

Even today, it is not uncommon for cult members to give their young children to the cult leader to "marry" and sexually abuse.[31] So if she were to have been offered to Muhammad, this would not justify the marriage in any way.

Abu Bakr became the 1st Caliph. Muhammad married Aisha to "cement the relations of the budding nation"[edit]
Abu Bakr was already Muhammad's closest companion. There was no need for him to "cement relations" with Abu Bakr by marrying his 6-year-old daughter, and thereby forever legitimizing child-marriages within Islam.

Additionally, if this was the sole purpose behind the marriage, he could have just as easily married Abu Bakr's other daughter, Asma bint Abu Bakr, who was a lot older and not married at the time.

Aisha consented to the marriage. If it was abuse, she would have left Muhammad[edit]
In Islam, a virgin's silence is her "consent".[32][33] To the rest of us, this does not constitute consent, and the idea that a young child's willingness to engage in sexual activity with a grown adult somehow makes the act morally justifiable is abhorrent. It is an excuse that many pedophiles use to justify their behavior.

In fact, Aisha did not consent to her marriage. This is the specific reason why Islamic scholars are "unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her."[34] Furthermore, "there is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a minor (did not attain puberty)", but "when she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage."[35]

As to not leaving him; both of the young victims, aged 12 and 15, of Warren Jeffs, the polygamist cult leader, did not leave him. They "entered into unions with Jeffs willingly, and did not participate in the trial against him."[36] Regardless of the victims support for him, he was still a pedophile and was convicted in 2011 of sexually abusing children.

Aisha loved Muhammad and always spoke highly of him. Would a pedophile be worthy of such praise?[edit]
If you read the narrations by Aisha, you will find that their nature and content are often derogatory towards Islam, and at times she is found mocking and belittling her husband. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why the Shi'ite sect hold a very negative view of her.

For example; she said Muhammad was affected with magic, and black magic is considered to be the devil’s doing, thereby she is in fact proclaiming he was under the influence of the devil.[37] She also created the impression that he was forgetful and clumsy,[38] she disclosed things which Muhammad had told her in private.[39] and once noted, with unmissable sarcasm, "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."[40]

Muhammad and Aisha's relationship was far from idyllic. Muhammad at one time struck her painfully in the chest,[41] and he allowed Abu Bakr to slap her,[42] and Aisha even claimed to dislike facing him.[43]

As to the original question; Would a pedophile be worthy of such praise? The answer is, yes. Victims of pedophilia often defend their abusers. Any praise heaped on Muhammad by Aisha can be easily explained by the Stockholm Syndrome.[44]

Muhammad can't be a pedophile, he also had sex with grown women[edit]
According to statistics provided by the Mayo Clinic, 93% of heterosexual male pedophiles have also engaged in adult relationships.[29]

Pedophiles prefer children, but Muhammad had many adult wives and only 1 child-bride[edit]
It is common knowledge that after Khadijah's death, Aisha, who was Muhammad's only child bride, was also his favorite wife,[45] and according to Islamic oral traditions, Muhammad preferred young virgin girls to "matrons",[46][47] he had sexual intentions for at least one other baby girl,[48][49] and he coveted a child princess still being wet-nursed.[50]

The stringent DSM-IV-TR clinical definition of pedophilia, which is applied to Muhammad's behavior here, also does not require a person to be solely or preferentially attracted to children for a positive diagnosis of pedophilia. The DSM-IV only requires that someone have had a sexual attraction for a child and have acted on that attraction at least once.[51]

At that time, it was okay to have sex with 9 year olds in Arabia. It was a cultural norm[edit]
As they themselves have left behind no written records, there is no evidence of pedophilic marriages being accepted among the non-Muslim Arabs of Muhammad's time. The only sources we have are Muslim sources, so to claim that such a marriage was a cultural norm among all Arabs is baseless conjecture.

During the Medieval period it was the norm in Jewish Middle Eastern cultures for girls to be given in marriage when they were 12-13 years old,[52] coinciding perfectly with the average age at menarche in the Medieval Middle East which was also 12-13 years.[26] A large age gap between the spouses was also opposed,[53][54] yet the age gap between Muhammad and Aisha was a massive 45 years.

Besides, a lot of other things were acceptable in the past, but that does not make them any more moral or right.

Drinking alcohol and gambling were both permitted activities in pre-Islamic Arabia, yet Muhammad chose to ban these relatively harmless "cultural norms".[55] Why did he not do the same for slavery or pedophilia rather than indulging in both himself?

As with pedophilia, Muhammad's actions perpetuated the existence of slavery by institutionalizing it within Islam. Muhammad was a slave-trader.[56] He not only owned many male[57] and female[58] slaves, but he also captured, sold, and had sex[59] with his slaves. Even Bilal, the famed "black Muslim", was bought in exchange for a black non-Muslim slave.[60]

People lived shorter life spans back then, a 9 year old girl would be comparable to a 20 year old today[edit]
This is a false argument based on the conflation of two different things. Life expectancy, which refers to the average length of life from birth, lowered in the past by very high rates of infant mortality. And the average lifespan, which looks at how long people lived once they had passed the infant stage.

So, when apologists claim,"people lived shorter life spans," it does not mean people in the past lived an accelerated life cycle. It means that more of them died as children than do today.

For example, if a society had a life expectancy of 35 years, this does not mean that a person of 35 years was considered to be old. If they managed to live past their childhood years, they still had a very good chance of continuing on to that society's average lifespan, which could have been 60 or 70 years of age. What it does mean, is that so many children died at birth, or at 5, or at 11 years of age that it brought the average life expectancy down.

A nine year old girl in 7th century Arabia would absolutely not "be comparable to a 20 year old today." She would still be just a nine year old girl.

Additionally, Muhammad lived to the age of 63 years, Aisha to 66, Asma bint Abu Bakr to 100, Khadijah to 64 and Abu Bakr to 61. Do these seem like shorter lives?

Even today in developed countries, someone who reaches the age of 60 is considered old, and rarely do people reach the age of 100. If you knew your daughter would die like Aisha at 66, would that make it okay for her to have sex at the age of 9 with a 54 year old man?

All religious founders were products of their time. We cannot judge Muhammad by today's standards[edit]
Most Muslims clearly disagree with this statement. Unlike other faiths, in Islam, Muhammad is the "uswa hasana, al-Insān al-Kāmil" (the perfect human, whose example is worthy of imitation). The Qur'an even refers to his morality as “sublime”,[61] and as the Qur'an is believed by Muslims to be the literal and final words of God, they are beyond the constraints of time.

All mainstream Muslims consider Muhammad to be the perfect example to follow. For them to suggest otherwise (thereby conceding that Muhammad's actions are immoral when compared to today's standards) would constitute apostasy via blasphemy in belief[62] and would make them liable for the death sentence under Islamic law.

They do not judge morality by "today's" standard, but by Muhammad's standard. Hence millions of young girls today are forced into pedophilic child marriages by individuals, and even entire countries, who explicitly use Muhammad and Aisha's relationship as justification.[4][5][6][7][8]

Muhammad and Aisha's relationship is also used to hinder attempts by developing countries to move forward by banning child marriages. For example; in countries like Yemen, Bangladesh, Iran, and Northern Nigeria, recent attempts at reforming laws and banning child marriages have been opposed and stopped on the grounds that such a ban would be "un-Islamic".[7][63][64][65]

In some cases, Muhammad and Aisha's relationship is used to effectively "turn back the clock" by legalizing child marriages in places they were previously illegal. For example; in 2010, the Malaysian State of southern Malacca legalized child marriages specifically between adult Muslim men and young Muslim girls below the age of 16. Ivy Josiah, the executive director of the Women's Aid Organisation, noted "Child marriage amounts to paedophilia ... It is really a regressive move. It is turning back the clock."[66]

The Islamic texts themselves specifically destroy any appeals to cultural relativism that could be otherwise aimed at Muhammad's marriage. In Sahih Bukhari, Muhammad claimed it was Allah's will (through a dream)[67] that he marry Aisha. Thus, it was not the primitive Arabian culture that led to his marriage, but the "timeless" morality of Allah.

The Jewish Talmud says sex with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age[edit]
The claim that the Talmud says "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age," is an antisemitic myth. Yevamot 11b, the citation provided with this claim, has no relevant passage.

Whilst the language used is very crude, the discussion relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins. It has nothing to do with what acts are allowed, encouraged, forbidden, or discouraged. It is ironic that this passage has been manipulated from its original context of a financial discussion into one of a religious discussion. While there are numerous Talmudic passages of a religious nature, this one discusses dowries and not forbidden and permitted relations.[68]

Mary married 90-year-old Joseph when she was only 12, so Joseph was a pedophile too[edit]
Everyone who makes this claim, cite the same New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia page.[69] What they do not mention is that this page begins by warning readers, "the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents".[70]

According to Wikipedia, apocrypha is defined as "spurious", "of questionable authenticity", and "Christian texts that are not canonical."[71] Thus they can be considered as the Christian equivalent of da`if (weak) or maudu (fabricated) hadith.

Something that is non-canonical is not binding on a follower and can be ignored. There is no authoritative Christian text which state Mary's age. Claims about her age are, at best, educated guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Bukhari and Muslim, on the other hand, are canonical Islamic writings of the utmost religious authenticity, accepted by approximately 90 percent of the world's Muslims.

Even if we do accept this tu-quoque logical fallacy as a valid argument, there remains several problems. The first being the fact that the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia page does not say Mary married Joseph when she was aged only 12.

What it actually says, after warning readers once again that the stories are "unreliable", is that Mary was 12 to 14 at the time of the choosing of candidates, and the Annunciation (the announcement by the angel Gabriel to the virgin called Mary, that she would conceive and become the mother of Jesus)[72] took place two years later.[73] This would make Mary 14 to 16 at the time of her marriage, not 12, or 9, as was the case between Muhammad and Aisha. She would have been a teenager of child-bearing age, not a pre-pubescent pre-teen child.

Another problem is that the theological significance of Joseph and Muhammad to the Christian and Islamic faiths are incomparable (i.e. the logical fallacy of false equivalence). Unlike the Muslim view of Muhammad, Christians do not consider Joseph to be an uswa hasana (excellent model of conduct). Joseph's moral character holds no importance within Christian theology. He could have been insane and it would not matter to a Christian.

Then there is the fact that, according to both the Christian scriptures and the Islamic ones, Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus; therefore, her relationship with Joseph could not have been a sexual one until after Jesus' birth, making her possibly 17 years of age at the time the marriage was eventually consummated, if ever.

Indeed, the same New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia page continues the narrative of Joseph's life by stating both Mary and Joseph entered the marriage with the understanding that it was never to be consummated.[74]

Mary's Perpetual virginity, the belief that Mary remained a virgin her entire life, is an essential article of faith for the majority of the worlds Christians (including the Roman Catholic, Anglo-Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Christians). It is even held by some Muslims.[75]

Finally, the most decisive argument against the claim that Joseph was a pedophile is the fact that the same non-canonical writings which are used to gather information on Joseph and Mary's age, also confirm Mary's status as "ever virgin" (in The History of Joseph the Carpenter, Jesus says on Joseph's death "my mother, virgin undefiled").[76]

Catholic & Eastern Churches believe pedophile Joseph is a Saint, that's the same as an Uswa Hasana in Islam[edit]
A saint and an uswa hasana are nothing alike. The entire Islamic faith, almost all of its laws, rituals, and moral principles, are defined by the uswa hasana's actions. A saint has no similar function in Christianity. Their actions do not determine Christian laws, rituals, or moral principles in any way. Joan of Arc and countless others are Catholic saints too, but that means very little to how one practices Christianity.

Muhammad is the central figure of Islam, Joseph is not the central figure of Christianity. Islam would not exist if Muslims decided Muhammad was immoral. On the other hand, for Christians of any stripe, Joseph is a "non entity" as far as its theology is concerned. The closest analogy to Muhammad and an uswa hasana in Christianity is the figure of Jesus, and very few non-Christians would argue that their view of Christians and Christianity would not improve if his followers behaved more like him.

In addition, it is the same Catholic and Eastern Churches which consider Joseph a saint, who also hold to the belief of Mary's perpetual virginity. Since Mary's ever-lasting virginity is an integral part or "pillar" of their faith, and most modern theologians think the Pope could reverse a sainthood without undermining the Church's doctrines,[77] it is not hard to imagine what would have become of Joseph's saint status if he did have intercourse with Mary.

Furthermore, as has already been stated in the previous section, Joseph cannot be labeled as a pedophile by anyone's standards because there is no authoritative, or even apocryphal, Christian text that state an adult Joseph had sex with a child Mary. Therefore, even if the status of saint was equivalent to that of an uswa hasana, it would not matter to a Christian or help Muslims in excusing the actions of Muhammad.

If Muhammad was a pedophile, then so is the Christian god for impregnating Mary[edit]
Ignoring the fact that a pedophile by its very definition means someone who is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children,[51] so a teenager of child-bearing age is not pre-pubescent, it has already been shown in a previous section that there is no authoritative Christian text which state Mary's age. Claims about her age are, at best, educated guesses, but guesses none-the-less.

Additionally, the apocryphal literature (the Christian equivalent of weak or fabricated hadith) used to gather information on Mary's possible age actually reveal she may have been 16 at the time of her marriage, not 12.

Even if we were to assume she was 12 at the time, there still remain several problems with this claim.

According to the Bible, Mary became with child by "the power of the Highest",[78] a phrase that does not, or does not necessarily, correspond to Mary being "impregnated."

Even if we do accept that the Christian god "impregnated" Mary, both Christians and Muslims believe God is omnipotent. Therefore sexual intercourse, something which would have to take place if we were to accept this claim, is not necessary in order to achieve this. For example, artificial insemination needs no sexual intercourse. If humans can create a method to impregnate people without the need for sexual intercourse, why can an omnipotent deity not do the same? Of course, from an omnipotent entity, this would not need to be a physical procedure, nor would there be a need for the hymen to be torn.

Muslims also believe in the virgin birth. So, if Muslims insist the Christian god must have had sex with Mary in order to have a son, it is tantamount to an admission that, according to Islam, Allah must have also had sex with Mary in order for her to conceive Jesus.

In short; the Christian text do not mention anything of a sexual nature, i.e. there was no penis or any other indicator suggesting a sexual experience. Clearly, if there was no physical contact involved, then there was no sexual contact. Without this much needed sexual contact, there is no pedophilia.

Conversely, the Qur'an explicitly tells us Allah (or Gabriel if we refer to the tafsir text) blew into Mary's vagina in order for her to conceive Jesus.

Americans and Europeans both considered child marriages to be acceptable[edit]
Yes, that is correct. But note the past tense. They considered, not consider. Marriage to young girls was previously seen as normal, and yet most Americans and Europeans today, both religious and secular, find child marriages to be repulsive. Could this be because they have no uswa hasana (an excellent model of conduct) who married and had sex with a child?

This would explain why there is not a single mainstream Christian who argues in favor of child-marriages on the basis that "Saint Joseph (allegedly) did it 2000 years ago", "King Richard II did it 600 years ago"[79] or that banning it would be "un-Christian". Whilst the majority of mainstream Muslim scholars argue in favor of child-marriages on the basis that "Prophet Muhammad did it 1400 years ago",[4][5][6][7][8] "the Prophet's Companions did it"[80] or that banning it would be "un-Islamic".[7][63][64][65] In some cases, Muhammad and Aisha's relationship has even been used to effectively "turn back the clock" by legalizing child marriages in places today where they were previously illegal.[66]

Man-made laws have evidently evolved with our morality, whilst Shari'ah (consisting of the Qur'an and Sunnah) are seen as Allah's unalterable holy law. To attempt to change it would be considered blasphemous, as it constitutes Bid'ah, something which was forbidden by Muhammad himself.[81][82] What can be altered is Islamic jurisprudence, but as that is extracted from, and cannot contradict,[83][84] Shari'ah, the results tend to remain unacceptable to the modern world. The world has moved on, but Islam mostly has not.

Even today, there are states in America that allow girls to get married at 15, 14 or even 13[edit]
The age of marriage in the US varies by State, but is generally 18 (with two exceptions where the minimum age is actually higher).[85] Most states, however, allow minors below 18 to marry (generally at 16 but sometimes lower) with parental and/or judicial consent.

These early marriage laws are for teenagers who fall in love, may or may not have gotten pregnant, and wish to get married. They do not allow pedophiles to indulge in their sexual fantasies.

Using the State of Texas as an example; the age of marriage is 18, but with parental or judicial consent it is lowered to 14. Likewise, the age of consent is 18. However, when a girl is under the age of 17, her sexual partner can be no more than 3 years older, and it must be proven that there was no duress, i.e. there was understood consent between the couple.[86] So a 14 year-old can have sex with a 17 year-old with consent, but not with an 18 year-old. The 18 year-old would be a sex offender guilty of statutory rape.

If contemporary American laws are applied to a 54 year-old Muhammad, this would mean any attempts by him to marry a minor in any State would be denied by law, and an admission of sexual relations would result in him being charged with statutory rape and becoming a registered sex offender.
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The only thing I see is that you assume we believe all ahadith to be accurate portrayals.

In regards to the Ahadith regarding Aisha nearly everyone if not all trce their Isnad bact to Hisham who met Aiasha before he was 10 years old and she would have been near 60 or in her 60s at the time. he did not write what he recalled hearing Aisha tell him until he was over 70 years old. Others have quoted from Hisham for their Ahadith regarding Aisha. There are very few Ahadith about Aisha that do not trace their origin back to Hisham and those that don;t originate from Hisham make no mention of her age,

We actually have no knowledge of what Aisha's age actually was. All indications outside the Ahadith that originated from Hisham indicate she would have been at least 20 years old. the strongest indicator is because she remembered the pre-Islamic era. Which ended in 610 AD, the Marriage to Muhammad(saws) took place in 619. If she had memories of events prior to 610 she most likely was at least 5-10 years old at the time and probably older.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

Argument from the Chain of Transmission

In this section we want to deal with a few specific points raised by certain individuals like Moiz Amjad of www.understanding-islam.org who try to cast doubt on the veracity of the reports that explicitly say Muhammad married Aisha when she was nine.

Mr. Amjad calls into question the reliability of these reports on the grounds that the one who transmitted most of them, Hisham ibn Urwah, wasn’t completely reliable:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302) (What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?; source)
We will let Sunni writer Gibril Foaud Haddad refute Moiz Amjad’s criticism of Hisham ibn Urwah. Here is what he says in relation to the first point:

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. (Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet, Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad)

In regard to the second point, Haddad writes:

Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been reported…

Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.

Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik ibn `Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.

This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!

And here is his answer to the third and fourth points:

Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub does not exactly endorse that criticism.

As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.

Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".

Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything from his father except what he had heard directly from him.

Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had heard directly from him".

In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu `Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham! …

An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301 #9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"

Mr. Amjad also claims that:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

Al-Maududi refutes this date:

Period of Revelation
The incident of the shaqq-al-Qamar (splitting of the moon) that has been mentioned in it determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's hijra to Madinah. (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

As does Haddad:

Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.

Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.

To read Haddad’s complete rebuttal to Amjad’s article please click on the following links: 1, 2, 3.

This concludes our discussion for this part. Continue with a brief article further touching on the issue of Muhammad’s marriage in light of the cultural practices at that time.

Muhammad's Marriage to a Prepubescent Girl and its Moral Implications [Part 2]
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:27 PM
 
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EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.101 Narrated by Aisha
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent."

All six year old Aisha had to do was....nothing.

Further, we have all these explicit hadith (and other writings) about Aisha being 9 years old when Muhammed started raping her. Where are all the hadiths saying explicitly that she was 17, or 18, or some other age? Post them.

And of course Muhammed was 'special'. How many wives did he have?
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Old 05-27-2016, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.101 Narrated by Aisha
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent."

All six year old Aisha had to do was....nothing.

Further, we have all these explicit hadith (and other writings) about Aisha being 9 years old when Muhammed started raping her. Where are all the hadiths saying explicitly that she was 17, or 18, or some other age? Post them.

And of course Muhammed was 'special'. How many wives did he have?

Further, we have all these explicit hadith (and other writings) about Aisha being 9 years old when Muhammed started raping her. Where are all the hadiths saying explicitly that she was 17, or 18, or some other age? Post them.

Which Ahadith about Aisha are quotes from Muhammad(saws)? for that matter where are quotes about Aisha from anyone except Aisha as related by a third party?
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Old 05-27-2016, 12:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Further, we have all these explicit hadith (and other writings) about Aisha being 9 years old when Muhammed started raping her. Where are all the hadiths saying explicitly that she was 17, or 18, or some other age? Post them.

Which Ahadith about Aisha are quotes from Muhammad(saws)? for that matter where are quotes about Aisha from anyone except Aisha as related by a third party?
I've already posted them several times. And are you calling Aisha an evil liar? She is considered by many to be one of the most famous hadith narrators and the mother of Islam. Should all the hadiths by her be removed? When Islam removes all hadiths by her, let me know.
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