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Old 05-27-2016, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I've already posted them several times. And are you calling Aisha an evil liar? She is considered by many to be one of the most famous hadith narrators and the mother of Islam. Should all the hadiths by her be removed? When Islam removes all hadiths by her, let me know.
There is no doubt that Aisha was a very remarkable, intelligent and pious women. Her qualities are exemplary.

but that does not mean all Ahadith attributed to her are things she actually said.

Ahadith are no more accurate than the accuracy of the chain of narrators.

Hisham was 10 years old When Aisha died. He was over 70 years old when he began writing what he believed Aisha said to him. (From contemporaries of Hisham it appears he was suffering from dementia when he began writing.

Keep in mind most online ahadith do not have the chain of Isnad. I only know of one. Here is an example of a Hadith with Isnad. It is from Bukhari : Vol. 1, Book 6, Hadith 293



Narrated `Aisha:

While in menses, I used to comb the hair of Allah's Apostle .

Chain (Isnad)

'Abdullah bin Yusuf al-Tunaysi —— Imam Maalik —— Hisham bin 'Urwa —— 'Urwa ibn al-Zubayr —— 'Aisha bint Abi Bakr

Bukhari heard it from Abdullah bin Yusuf who Bukhari believes heard it from Imaam Malik who Bukhari believes heard it from Hisham who Bukhari believs heard it from Urwa who Bukhari believes heard it from Aisha.

Now this is where I have an issue nearly every Hadith attributed to Aisha has been through Hisham at some point.

I am not a Hadith rejecter, however I have trouble believing that most of them attributed to Aisha actually came from her. But again I have not been doing any intensive study of Ahadith for very many years only about 7 and not always full time and with periods of time when I didn't pick up any of my books or have access the Hadith scholars.

Here is a link I use for Ahadith study in addition to my text books.

http://qaalarasulallah.com/
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-27-2016 at 08:13 PM..
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Old 05-27-2016, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,602,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not a Hadith rejecter, however I have trouble believing that most of them attributed to Aisha actually came from her. But again I have not been doing any intensive study of Ahadith for very many years only about 7 and not always full time and with periods of time when I didn't pick up any of my books or have access the Hadith scholars.

Here is a link I use for Ahadith study in addition to my text books.

Prophet(saw) said.. ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????
It is very morally dishonest to accept some hadiths and reject some hadiths regardless of the verification process.

Regardless of the process of verification of the chain of transmission, the default is oral transmissions can never be 100% accurate and at best it is only 20% accurate in the case of the Ahadith due to the time gap and the average wisdom of Arabs in the 7-9th century.

Obviously believers [Muslims] will twist and turn whatever Hadith out there to their personal interests either for good or evil. The fact is conservatively 20% of Muslims [as with all humans] are born with active evil tendencies and they are likely to swing towards the evil laden hadith[s].
Another serious point is there is no central authority to make the ultimate judgment on which Hadith is authentic and which is not.

Therefore as long as the Ahadith are accepted by Muslims [majority 95%] the evil prone Muslims [some] will be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Ahadith to commit evils and violence in non-Muslims and other Muslims of different sects or thoughts.

The Ahadith as a whole contain a lot of evil laden elements and very 'stupid' ideas which is an embarrassment to those Muslims who accept the Ahadith as having divine authority.

The most effective approach for Muslims to upgrade themselves to another level is to reject the Ahadiths as having divine authority, example like Khalif and his Quran-Only likes. The Ahadith can be used as a guide but should NEVER be viewed as having any direct link with their passport to Paradise.
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Old 05-27-2016, 10:23 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,757 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no doubt that Aisha was a very remarkable, intelligent and pious women. Her qualities are exemplary.

but that does not mean all Ahadith attributed to her are things she actually said.

Ahadith are no more accurate than the accuracy of the chain of narrators.

Hisham was 10 years old When Aisha died. He was over 70 years old when he began writing what he believed Aisha said to him. (From contemporaries of Hisham it appears he was suffering from dementia when he began writing.

Keep in mind most online ahadith do not have the chain of Isnad. I only know of one. Here is an example of a Hadith with Isnad. It is from Bukhari : Vol. 1, Book 6, Hadith 293



Narrated `Aisha:

While in menses, I used to comb the hair of Allah's Apostle .

Chain (Isnad)

'Abdullah bin Yusuf al-Tunaysi Imam Maalik Hisham bin 'Urwa 'Urwa ibn al-Zubayr 'Aisha bint Abi Bakr

Bukhari heard it from Abdullah bin Yusuf who Bukhari believes heard it from Imaam Malik who Bukhari believes heard it from Hisham who Bukhari believs heard it from Urwa who Bukhari believes heard it from Aisha.

Now this is where I have an issue nearly every Hadith attributed to Aisha has been through Hisham at some point.

I am not a Hadith rejecter, however I have trouble believing that most of them attributed to Aisha actually came from her. But again I have not been doing any intensive study of Ahadith for very many years only about 7 and not always full time and with periods of time when I didn't pick up any of my books or have access the Hadith scholars.

Here is a link I use for Ahadith study in addition to my text books.

Prophet(saw) said.. ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????

If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?
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Old 05-28-2016, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?

Even if I found reason to reject all Ahadith, the Qur'an and found reason to believe Muhammad(saws) was not a Prophet I would still be a muslim and would still worship Allaah.(swt )in the manner I myself find to be true.

Being Muslim is not the 'membership" in a religion. It is the submission to Allaah(swt) in the manner which the person finds to be true


Because a person follows the Ahadith, the Qur'an and even accepts the teachings of a Madhab does not mean theyare Muslim At the same time because a person does not do those does not mean they are not a Muslim.

No one knows who is a Muslim, that is between the individual and Allaah(swt) not the adherence or non-Adherence to specific rules or membership in something. (Muslims have no membership in any religion)
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-28-2016 at 06:31 PM..
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is very morally dishonest to accept some hadiths and reject some hadiths regardless of the verification process.

Regardless of the process of verification of the chain of transmission, the default is oral transmissions can never be 100% accurate and at best it is only 20% accurate in the case of the Ahadith due to the time gap and the average wisdom of Arabs in the 7-9th century.

Obviously believers [Muslims] will twist and turn whatever Hadith out there to their personal interests either for good or evil. The fact is conservatively 20% of Muslims [as with all humans] are born with active evil tendencies and they are likely to swing towards the evil laden hadith[s].
Another serious point is there is no central authority to make the ultimate judgment on which Hadith is authentic and which is not.

Therefore as long as the Ahadith are accepted by Muslims [majority 95%] the evil prone Muslims [some] will be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Ahadith to commit evils and violence in non-Muslims and other Muslims of different sects or thoughts.

The Ahadith as a whole contain a lot of evil laden elements and very 'stupid' ideas which is an embarrassment to those Muslims who accept the Ahadith as having divine authority.

The most effective approach for Muslims to upgrade themselves to another level is to reject the Ahadiths as having divine authority, example like Khalif and his Quran-Only likes. The Ahadith can be used as a guide but should NEVER be viewed as having any direct link with their passport to Paradise.
The Ahadith are not divine. We as individuals have the responsibliity to question them and to do our best to varify the validity of each and every one. As the Ahadith are not the revelations from Allaah(swt) nor the words of Allaah(swt)

all of the Ahadith have varying levels of truth and error. they are at best the eyewitness accounts of humans. If you have every had the opportunity to hear the testimonies of witnesses to a crime scene you will find eyewitness accounts often differ.

Quote:
Regardless of the process of verification of the chain of transmission, the default is oral transmissions can never be 100% accurate and at best it is only 20% accurate in the case of the Ahadith due to the time gap and the average wisdom of Arabs in the 7-9th century.
True, which is why it is essential when studying ahadith to know the full Isnad and the means the compiler verified the authenticity of the Isnad. Most people that quote ahadith do not seem to know very mush about Hadith and blindly accept what they read as being undeniable fact. There are even ahadith circulating that have been fabricated as recently as the 1800s.

Here are some Links I think you will find quite interesting

https://standup4islam.wordpress.com/...cated-hadiths/

https://sites.google.com/site/revive...anet-must-read

The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq

Of course we have the Extreme view of the Hadith Rejecters who believe that no hadith should be considered true or even read by Muslims. I am adding these to show the extreme opposite of the absolute believers of hadith. I like to see the extremes of all views as the extreme ends define borders and the truth is usually someplace between the extremes.

Hadith and the Corruption of the great religion of Islam | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Practices Of Submission (Islam) Without Hadith
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Old 05-28-2016, 07:41 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,757 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Even if I found reason to reject all Ahadith, the Qur'an and found reason to believe Muhammad(saws) was not a Prophet I would still be a muslim and would still worship Allaah.(swt )in the manner I myself find to be true.

Being Muslim is not the 'membership" in a religion. It is the submission to Allaah(swt) in the manner which the person finds to be true


Because a person follows the Ahadith, the Qur'an and even accepts the teachings of a Madhab does not mean theyare Muslim At the same time because a person does not do those does not mean they are not a Muslim.

No one knows who is a Muslim, that is between the individual and Allaah(swt) not the adherence or non-Adherence to specific rules or membership in something. (Muslims have no membership in any religion)
Huh? If you rejected the Quran, what would you have to go on? It's like a Christian saying if they rejected the bible they would still be Christian.

But the question is not answered. If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?

This question assumes that Allah made Muhammed the prophet of Islam and was obviously OK with Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader and telling the world that Muhammed was a perfect example of conduct.

Geez, it is like pulling teeth. Just give me a yes or no.
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Old 05-28-2016, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Huh? If you rejected the Quran, what would you have to go on? It's like a Christian saying if they rejected the bible they would still be Christian.

But the question is not answered. If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?

This question assumes that Allah made Muhammed the prophet of Islam and was obviously OK with Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader and telling the world that Muhammed was a perfect example of conduct.

Geez, it is like pulling teeth. Just give me a yes or no.
Islam is a verb not a noun, it is non-Muslims that have desided it is the name of a religion. We follow a De;en (way of life ) which includes our beliefs and worship.

A person who performs the action of Islam, is a Muslim. It does not require the Qur'an, ahadith or anything else. but it does require for us to constantly seek and verify how we should submit to Allaah(swt) many of us find that the Qur'an is the best Guide for learning how to perform Islam.

Those of us who believe the Qur'an is the actual word of Allahh, do believe it is our guide to performing Islam. But there have been and may still be people who never heard of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws) who perform Islam and are/were Muslims

It is very probable there are Jews, Christians, Sabeeans, Zoroastrians Hindus and other monotheistic believers who through no fault of their own had never heard of the Qur'an and are therefore performing Islam to the best of their ability and are Muslim without even knowing that is what they are.

Perrforming Islam does not require perfection it requires us to submit to the best of our ability in accordance with our ability and knowledge.

Islam is not the name of a religion, it is the act of submitting to god(swt) of our own free will and to the best of our ability.,
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Huh? If you rejected the Quran, what would you have to go on? It's like a Christian saying if they rejected the bible they would still be Christian.

But the question is not answered. If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?

This question assumes that Allah made Muhammed the prophet of Islam and was obviously OK with Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader and telling the world that Muhammed was a perfect example of conduct.

Geez, it is like pulling teeth. Just give me a yes or no.
I probaly am not clear about my answer. I will attempt to do something I am not good at a simple one word answer.

Quote:
But the question is not answered. If the hadith are true and Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child, would you leave Islam?

NO


But I would no longer consider Muhammad(saws) a Prophet as a Prophet would never rape anyone.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:31 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,757 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I probaly am not clear about my answer. I will attempt to do something I am not good at a simple one word answer.



NO


But I would no longer consider Muhammad(saws) a Prophet as a Prophet would never rape anyone.
OK. You would continue to submit to a god that chose for a prophet a man who would rape a child. You would at least disagree with allah about his choice of a prophet and disagree with allah that Muhammed is a perfect example of conduct. That is a huge disagreement. Are people who do not accept Muhammed as a prophet still Muslims?
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:51 PM
 
10,640 posts, read 15,784,873 times
Reputation: 12044
C"mon, Muslims. Of course Islam is beating the race. With average 8 children births per family in a Muslim one vs 1.4 birth in a Christian family, that being way below 2.1 birth sustainable rate, of course Islam is winning.
Sheesh.. Simple math.
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