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Old 05-16-2016, 04:22 PM
 
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You failed; that wasn't a chapter of any sort. Definitely not from God.
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
If you mean that it has to be in Arabic...I accept your challenge:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayDSoQIDbw
While the tone is reminiscent of the Qur'an the words are not understandable to any speaker that is not fluent in the dialect he is speaking. I can not understand a word he said as it is neither Darija (Moroccan) nor Qur'anic. I can not tell what dialect it is.

Although I do have considerable Tonal hearing loss. I will have to concede that may be the reason. Although I have no problem hearing Qur'anic Arabic.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
So you already accept defeat?
I stated your view is not smart nor intelligent. In this case why should I accept a challenge that is stupid from the start.

Quote:
If you don't know Arabic then you shouldn't be moaning about its challenge! You can try in English and claim it to be from God. Hell, I will be the first one to reject it, just as you reject the Qur'an to be from God.
Note it is Allah who is issuing a challenge to mankind and non-believers.
I argued it is a stupid challenge to start with.
Since it is a stupid challenge, it cannot be from Allah, unless you insist it is.
Since God is not supposed to be stupid, that stupid challenge can only be issued by some childish human[s].

Quote:
It's not my challenge but a challenge from God to those Arabs at the time the Qur'an was revealed and they thought it was from Muhammad.
The Quran is supposed to be eternal and addressed to mankind, therefore the challenge is to non-believers eternally.

Quote:
Then you need to use your brain and understand that Muhammad (the Quraish) could not have produced it from himself as even his Quraish enemies were claiming that the language of the Qur'an sounds foreign. Therefore, the language of the Qur'an is not in Quraish dialect only.
As I had stated a challenge must at least be possible.
If the original language of the Quran was not in Quraish dialect, then it is an impossible challenge. As such it is a stupid challenge.

On the other hand, your guess is wrong.
Allah stated in the Quran, Allah always sent a messenger of their own language.
Therefore the message from Allah to Muhammad must be in the language of his tribe, i.e. in the Quraishi dialect.

Since the Quran is supposed to be eternal and addressed to mankind, therefore the challenge is to non-believers eternally. As such to expect the present non-believers to duplicate the Quran in the Quraishi dialect of the 7th century would be stupid.

Quote:
It does not have to be in Qur'anic Arabic or in Hebrew. You pick the language, write a book yourself and claim it to be from God. Let's see how far you get with it!
You missed the point again.
The implication is there is no holy book that is equivalent in spiritual value like the Quran.
I have given you examples of better holy texts than the Quran.

I have personally compile/repackage the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path as a generic problem solving technique on my own thinking. That is a million times better than what we can get from the Quran.

Quote:
Excuses, excuses and excuses! Just produce it in any language, of a spiritual quality you think should be from God, any content that would be from God, and claim it to be from God. See how far you would get with!
This is your usual blabbering when you cannot counter my points intellectually rationally and objectively.
Obviously when making comparisons there must be some sort of criteria to make the comparison objective, otherwise to each his own subjective views till the cows come home.

Quote:
In spiritual guidance from Allah! (Nothing to do with language.) Same or better in guidance from God.
I have listed some examples [from God and humans] which are better guidance for mankind. What is your counter on this.

Quote:
Then why don't YOU produce one that is not millions times but just ten times better than Allah's guidance in the Qur'an?
Note Allah challenge refer to one sura, ten suras or a scripture.
I have produced a list of examples of holy texts that are better than the Quran.
I have personally compile/repackage the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path as a generic problem solving technique on my own thinking. That is a million times better than what we can get from the Quran.

Note the Quran did not expect the individual 'YOU' to write it personally but produce [bring forth] from any source, one sura, ten suras or a scripture that is like and better than the Quran's.
I have done that above.

In one example, i.e.
1. Buddhism - e.g. Avatamsaka Sutra [~10 times longer than the Quran] which focused on spiritual knowledge and development
is obviously better than the Quran because there are no evil laden elements that can influence and inspire evil prone Buddhists [~20%] to commit terrible evils and violence in total contrast to the Quran which contain loads of evil laden elements.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
because a person understands what was said, does not always equate to meaning they know the significance of it.

A person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble in knowing what any word in the Qur'an is. this does not hold true for any other dialect for example the name for Morocco in various dialects ranges from Qued al Oussain, to Maroc, to Maghreb to Marrakesh. In the Moroccan dialect the word for girl is Bent while in Saudri it is B'nat. In the Saudi Dialect the word for city is madina while in Moroccan it is Do'ar Yet both recognize the Qur'anic madeenati as meaning city ( found in 7: 123)

The arguments among scholars is not over the understanding of what the words are but of the significance.

The average speaker of Moroccan Arabic has no trouble in translating Qur'anic Arabic to Moroccan nor does a speaker of Saudi Arabic have any trouble in translating Qur'anic Arabic to Saudi. Yet it is virtually impossible for the average speaker of Moroccan Arabic to translate Saudi Arabic and vice versa. I speak the Moroccan dialect and am completely lost with Saudi Arabic (N'cal bel Arbeea wellakeen ma naraf shee bel Sood) (I speak Arabic, but do not understand Saudi)
You failed to understand what is critical is not the words but the significance and essence of the message.

A person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble in knowing what any word in the Qur'an is. It is the same with Character-Based Mandarin where for the same character it is pronounced in hundreds of different dialects. That is not the issue.

The critical issue is this;
The present Quran was translated from the original dialect of the Quraishi.
Because that translation involved humans, i.e. from Muhammad to scribes then translated hundreds of years later, it is definitely possible there could be wrong translation in this process.

Therefore if the challenge is to produce a Quran of like in the original dialect of the Quraishi, that would be a non-starter.

The challenge if it is from Allah [supposedly intelligent] would imply producing a surah, 10 surahs or scripture that is better in spiritual value.
I have produced a list of holy texts [above] that are better than the low grade Quran.
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Old 05-17-2016, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You failed to understand what is critical is not the words but the significance and essence of the message.

A person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble in knowing what any word in the Qur'an is. It is the same with Character-Based Mandarin where for the same character it is pronounced in hundreds of different dialects. That is not the issue.

The critical issue is this;
The present Quran was translated from the original dialect of the Quraishi.
Because that translation involved humans, i.e. from Muhammad to scribes then translated hundreds of years later, it is definitely possible there could be wrong translation in this process.

Therefore if the challenge is to produce a Quran of like in the original dialect of the Quraishi, that would be a non-starter.

The challenge if it is from Allah [supposedly intelligent] would imply producing a surah, 10 surahs or scripture that is better in spiritual value.
I have produced a list of holy texts [above] that are better than the low grade Quran.
There are at least 3 Uthman Qur'ans written shortly after the Death of Muhammad(saws) and they contain the exact same words as today's Qur'ans minus line numbers and punctuation marks, neither of which is considered to be part of the Qur'an. I follow the school of thought that believes they never should not have been added to the Qur;an as they encourage people to read the Qur'an as single line rather than reading full discourses as a single thought.

But the important issue is The Uthman Qur'ans were verified accurate by the hafiz that were alive while Muhammad(saws) was living and they had heard the initial recitations. Uthman was also one of the Sahaba (Companions of Muhammad) and had heard the recitations directly from Muhammad(saws) It is doubtful the Uthman Qur'ans contain any error as they were quite well scrutinized by people that had heard the first recitations by Muhammad(saws) I believe Uthman wrote 5 Qur'ans (I could be wrong) but only 2 still exist.
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are at least 3 Uthman Qur'ans written shortly after the Death of Muhammad(saws) and they contain the exact same words as today's Qur'ans minus line numbers and punctuation marks, neither of which is considered to be part of the Qur'an. I follow the school of thought that believes they never should not have been added to the Qur;an as they encourage people to read the Qur'an as single line rather than reading full discourses as a single thought.

But the important issue is The Uthman Qur'ans were verified accurate by the hafiz that were alive while Muhammad(saws) was living and they had heard the initial recitations. Uthman was also one of the Sahaba (Companions of Muhammad) and had heard the recitations directly from Muhammad(saws) It is doubtful the Uthman Qur'ans contain any error as they were quite well scrutinized by people that had heard the first recitations by Muhammad(saws) I believe Uthman wrote 5 Qur'ans (I could be wrong) but only 2 still exist.
How can you verify the above claims at all? There is no way one can verify your claim is 100% true.

In the absence of a fixed control copy to verify against, there is no way oral communications can be passed perfectly from one fallible human to another regardless of the amounts of precautions taken.

As you are aware in the games of Chinese Whispers or the Telephone Game, the message from the first person totally [100%] changed from the original after say the 10th person.
So oral communication between human is never fool proof nor reliable.

In the case of the Quran, if the message is transmitted from Muhammad's mind to another human then to more humans, there are definitely changes if not 100% then at least there will be changes and we cannot be certain the critical elements are changed.

In addition, the fact is there are no convincing proofs God exists as real.
Therefore there is no Quran from God to Gabriel to Muhammad.

Therefore the challenge to produce another Quran in the likeness [in terms of language] of the original revealed Quran is a non-starter and an unintelligent challenge.

If the criteria of challenge is based on spiritual intelligence and value, then I claimed any other holy texts of the mainstream religion is higher than the Quran.
One amongst the many criteria is the Quran is the ONLY book that influence SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit real wide range of terrible evils and violence around the world in the present era.
As for other spiritual criteria the Quran is very low down the scale in comparisons to the other main religions.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can you verify the above claims at all? There is no way one can verify your claim is 100% true.

In the absence of a fixed control copy to verify against, there is no way oral communications can be passed perfectly from one fallible human to another regardless of the amounts of precautions taken.

As you are aware in the games of Chinese Whispers or the Telephone Game, the message from the first person totally [100%] changed from the original after say the 10th person.
So oral communication between human is never fool proof nor reliable.

In the case of the Quran, if the message is transmitted from Muhammad's mind to another human then to more humans, there are definitely changes if not 100% then at least there will be changes and we cannot be certain the critical elements are changed.

In addition, the fact is there are no convincing proofs God exists as real.
Therefore there is no Quran from God to Gabriel to Muhammad.

Therefore the challenge to produce another Quran in the likeness [in terms of language] of the original revealed Quran is a non-starter and an unintelligent challenge.

If the criteria of challenge is based on spiritual intelligence and value, then I claimed any other holy texts of the mainstream religion is higher than the Quran.
One amongst the many criteria is the Quran is the ONLY book that influence SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit real wide range of terrible evils and violence around the world in the present era.
As for other spiritual criteria the Quran is very low down the scale in comparisons to the other main religions.
The ages of atleast 2 of the Uthman Qur'ans can and have been verified. It can also be shown that all Hafiz recite the exact same words ae are in the Uthman Qur'an

While it is physically impossible to prove that the Hafiz of today are reciting what the Hafiz living during the time of Muhammad(saws0 it can be shown the Hafiz of today are reciting a Qur'an that was in written form withing 30 years of the death of Muhammad*saws( Most of the Hafiz of the time including Uthman lived in the company of Muhammad(saws) and Memorized directly from his recitations.


No it is not verifiable physical proof prior to the Uthman Qur'an but logic presents a strong probability that the Hafiz of tosy recited the exact same as what was recited at the time of Muhammad(saws)


An interesting thing about hafiz it is desirably one becomes one prior to learning the meanings of the words and becomes essentially a living recorder not an interpreter. One can take any Qur'an of today and compare it with the nearly 1400 yearold Uthman and see they are the exact same words.

If the Uthman Qur'an were copies and not the ones Uthman had personally hand written, you would have a strong case. However these are the originals written by a close friend of Muhammad and read and reread by numerous people that personally knew Muhammad. The probability of them not being the exact words Muhammad(saws)said seems to be a bit remote.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The probability of them not being the exact words Muhammad(saws)said seems to be a bit remote.
This is a very big stretch of expectations.

It is because you are a believer and thus MUST be bias to maintain psychological security that you are willing to go against reality despite the very possibility of errors.

The reality is, even with a hard copy of text at present, the majority are liable to misinterpret the original meaning of a text.
What more if the means are oral communications 1,400 years ago?
Therefore to insist there is 100% perfect oral transmission to literal texts is an impossibility.

It is perhaps quite certain of veracity if one were to transmit principles of reality that still exists are present. For example if someone state the hard fact rain dropped from the sky 1,400 years ago, there is not likely to be an error when some one read such a statement and principles.

The point is the Quran being a religious message/book contain lots of abstract and subjective psychological elements [e.g. personal views, emotions, feelings, etc.]. Such abstract and subjective elements are most likely to be corrupted in the course of transmission from one human to another.

Based on the above the probability of the Quran not being the same as the original revelation is VERY possible, especially those abstract and subjective psychological elements.

Note it is only the Quran [present] that make the unrealistic claim that it is exactly the same as it was revealed 1,400 years ago. No one has make such a claim for any other book because it is very unintelligent to make such a claim. Only desperate souls will only make such an unintelligent claim.

What is critical is not how exact are the words as to the original but it is a question of how effective the spiritual message can resolve real current spiritual issues.
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:20 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated your view is not smart nor intelligent. In this case why should I accept a challenge that is stupid from the start.

Note it is Allah who is issuing a challenge to mankind and non-believers.
I argued it is a stupid challenge to start with.
Since it is a stupid challenge, it cannot be from Allah, unless you insist it is.
Since God is not supposed to be stupid, that stupid challenge can only be issued by some childish human[s].

The Quran is supposed to be eternal and addressed to mankind, therefore the challenge is to non-believers eternally.

As I had stated a challenge must at least be possible.
If the original language of the Quran was not in Quraish dialect, then it is an impossible challenge. As such it is a stupid challenge.

On the other hand, your guess is wrong.
Allah stated in the Quran, Allah always sent a messenger of their own language.
Therefore the message from Allah to Muhammad must be in the language of his tribe, i.e. in the Quraishi dialect.

Since the Quran is supposed to be eternal and addressed to mankind, therefore the challenge is to non-believers eternally. As such to expect the present non-believers to duplicate the Quran in the Quraishi dialect of the 7th century would be stupid.

You missed the point again.
The implication is there is no holy book that is equivalent in spiritual value like the Quran.
I have given you examples of better holy texts than the Quran.

I have personally compile/repackage the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path as a generic problem solving technique on my own thinking. That is a million times better than what we can get from the Quran.

This is your usual blabbering when you cannot counter my points intellectually rationally and objectively.
Obviously when making comparisons there must be some sort of criteria to make the comparison objective, otherwise to each his own subjective views till the cows come home.

I have listed some examples [from God and humans] which are better guidance for mankind. What is your counter on this.

Note Allah challenge refer to one sura, ten suras or a scripture.
I have produced a list of examples of holy texts that are better than the Quran.
I have personally compile/repackage the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path as a generic problem solving technique on my own thinking. That is a million times better than what we can get from the Quran.

Note the Quran did not expect the individual 'YOU' to write it personally but produce [bring forth] from any source, one sura, ten suras or a scripture that is like and better than the Quran's.
I have done that above.

In one example, i.e.
1. Buddhism - e.g. Avatamsaka Sutra [~10 times longer than the Quran] which focused on spiritual knowledge and development
is obviously better than the Quran because there are no evil laden elements that can influence and inspire evil prone Buddhists [~20%] to commit terrible evils and violence in total contrast to the Quran which contain loads of evil laden elements.
You too failed to produce the like of the Qur'an from God.

You have nothing but excuse after excuse why you can't do it.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a very big stretch of expectations.

It is because you are a believer and thus MUST be bias to maintain psychological security that you are willing to go against reality despite the very possibility of errors.

The reality is, even with a hard copy of text at present, the majority are liable to misinterpret the original meaning of a text.
What more if the means are oral communications 1,400 years ago?
Therefore to insist there is 100% perfect oral transmission to literal texts is an impossibility.

It is perhaps quite certain of veracity if one were to transmit principles of reality that still exists are present. For example if someone state the hard fact rain dropped from the sky 1,400 years ago, there is not likely to be an error when some one read such a statement and principles.

The point is the Quran being a religious message/book contain lots of abstract and subjective psychological elements [e.g. personal views, emotions, feelings, etc.]. Such abstract and subjective elements are most likely to be corrupted in the course of transmission from one human to another.

Based on the above the probability of the Quran not being the same as the original revelation is VERY possible, especially those abstract and subjective psychological elements.

Note it is only the Quran [present] that make the unrealistic claim that it is exactly the same as it was revealed 1,400 years ago. No one has make such a claim for any other book because it is very unintelligent to make such a claim. Only desperate souls will only make such an unintelligent claim.

What is critical is not how exact are the words as to the original but it is a question of how effective the spiritual message can resolve real current spiritual issues.
When you have something, written within 30 years of the event. Written by a witness of the event and having been scrutinized by numerous other witnesses to the event. There is a high probability it is an accurate description of the event.

This is what we have with the Uthman Qur'ans. We can be certain the Hafiz of today are reciting the Uthman Qur'an. This is easily verified as they can be compared.

It can be shown that the Uthman Qur'an was written during an era when there still were living witnesses of the original recitations by Muhammad(saws)

As the Uthman Qur'an was scrutinized by many people who were familiar with the actual words Muhammad(saws0 recited, there is a high probability the Uthman Qur'an is what was recited. and what the original Hafiz recited.
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