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Old 05-18-2016, 07:23 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Uthman did not add even one word in the Qur'an. All he did was include pronunciation marks on top or bottom of almost all the letters, keeping the words as they were. This was for the benefit of non-Arabic speakers.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You too failed to produce the like of the Qur'an from God.

You have nothing but excuse after excuse why you can't do it.
Note the challenge of the Quran is one Surah, ten Surah or the whole Scripture.

As I had stated

1. if the challenge is to produce exactly something like the Quran in its original language it was revealed to Muhammad, then, it is a very stupid [unintelligent] challenge.

2. If the challenge is to produce something of higher spiritual quality, then, this is possible.
If this is the challenge then we can compare the Quran to other scriptures of the present main religion and they are much better in spiritual value [net overall] than the Quran.


So which challenge are you proposing.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
When you have something, written within 30 years of the event. Written by a witness of the event and having been scrutinized by numerous other witnesses to the event. There is a high probability it is an accurate description of the event.

This is what we have with the Uthman Qur'ans. We can be certain the Hafiz of today are reciting the Uthman Qur'an. This is easily verified as they can be compared.

It can be shown that the Uthman Qur'an was written during an era when there still were living witnesses of the original recitations by Muhammad(saws)

As the Uthman Qur'an was scrutinized by many people who were familiar with the actual words Muhammad(saws0 recited, there is a high probability the Uthman Qur'an is what was recited. and what the original Hafiz recited.
Note the claim that the present Quran is in the form of the exact words as it was revealed is not feasible at all and an impossibility when we take fallible human nature into account.

Quote:
When you have something, written within 30 years of the event. Written by a witness of the event and having been scrutinized by numerous other witnesses to the event. There is a high probability it is an accurate description of the event.
Have you been reading up of research to show that this is not possible at all.
I had read up on whatever relevant research on the difficulty of 100% replication of knowledge from one source to another. It is especially more difficult when the emotional, subjective elements are factor in.

As I had stated even with a hard copy of texts right in front of another, there is still the high possibility of the other person not getting the essential message. What more with oral transmission 1,400 years ago when the literacy and intellectual standards of the average Quraishi is that low.

In addition, many of those who had received the oral transmission in their memory died in the many wars and fighting that Muhammad was involved with.

With the above potential limitations, it would not be possible for the present Quran to be in exactly the same words as it was revealed to Muhammad 1,400 years ago.

Your insistence that the present Quran is the exactly the same in terms of every word as the one revealed to Muhammad, is driven by desperate existential psychology. This is based on confirmation bias, i.e. you are bias to what you believe it should be and not what it really was.

You must recognize the fact that as a believer you MUST be bias and cannot have doubts even when reality implied otherwise.
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Old 05-18-2016, 10:36 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the challenge of the Quran is one Surah, ten Surah or the whole Scripture.

As I had stated

1. if the challenge is to produce exactly something like the Quran in its original language it was revealed to Muhammad, then, it is a very stupid [unintelligent] challenge.

2. If the challenge is to produce something of higher spiritual quality, then, this is possible.
If this is the challenge then we can compare the Quran to other scriptures of the present main religion and they are much better in spiritual value [net overall] than the Quran.

So which challenge are you proposing.
The challenge in the Qur'an is to produce one surah, ten surah or a book and claim it to be from God.

See how far you get it to compared with the Qur'an. If you do not succeed, the Qur'an is not from Muhammad himself but from God through Muhammad.

Remember, the original challenge was to those who were claiming that it is from Muhammad himself, just as you do, so the challenge applies to you as well now. Language is not a criterion but the success of the message from Allah is now the criterion, if you are to prove yourself. Go on, try it!
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:21 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the claim that the present Quran is in the form of the exact words as it was revealed is not feasible at all and an impossibility when we take fallible human nature into account.
The present Arabic Qur'an is in exact same words as it was revealed. There have been people who have memorized the Qur'an word by word from the outset and there still are thousands of them who have kept it to the original words.

Quote:
Have you been reading up of research to show that this is not possible at all.
I had read up on whatever relevant research on the difficulty of 100% replication of knowledge from one source to another. It is especially more difficult when the emotional, subjective elements are factor in.
For hadith, Yes, but for the Qur'an, No. The Qur'an wasn't passed on by one to another but by the thousands to thousands in exact same words. Go to any country, the Arabic Qur'an is in exact same words. Even the 1400 years old manuscripts at Birmingham University prove this to be the case.

Quote:
As I had stated even with a hard copy of texts right in front of another, there is still the high possibility of the other person not getting the essential message. What more with oral transmission 1,400 years ago when the literacy and intellectual standards of the average Quraishi is that low.
The Qur'an has been passed on by two combined methods, written and memory of the Hifz. It is a fool-proof method. Each element is proof of the other.

Quote:
In addition, many of those who had received the oral transmission in their memory died in the many wars and fighting that Muhammad was involved with.
You are trying to grab the straw that isn't there at all. There has never been Islam without any Hafiz of the Qur'an at any time since its revelation.

Quote:
With the above potential limitations, it would not be possible for the present Quran to be in exactly the same words as it was revealed to Muhammad 1,400 years ago.
The "potential limitation" is only in your head. Reality is not "potential limitation" but no such possibility.

Quote:
Your insistence that the present Quran is the exactly the same in terms of every word as the one revealed to Muhammad, is driven by desperate existential psychology. This is based on confirmation bias, i.e. you are bias to what you believe it should be and not what it really was.
The same applies to you!

Quote:
You must recognize the fact that as a believer you MUST be bias and cannot have doubts even when reality implied otherwise.
I do recognize the fact that you, as an unbeliever, have to be bias and potentially limited in your understanding of the fact about the Qur'an and Islam as a whole. You have to disagree with us or else you can't stay an unbeliever.
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The present Arabic Qur'an is in exact same words as it was revealed. There have been people who have memorized the Qur'an word by word from the outset and there still are thousands of them who have kept it to the original words.

For hadith, Yes, but for the Qur'an, No. The Qur'an wasn't passed on by one to another but by the thousands to thousands in exact same words. Go to any country, the Arabic Qur'an is in exact same words. Even the 1400 years old manuscripts at Birmingham University prove this to be the case.

The Qur'an has been passed on by two combined methods, written and memory of the Hifz. It is a fool-proof method. Each element is proof of the other.

You are trying to grab the straw that isn't there at all. There has never been Islam without any Hafiz of the Qur'an at any time since its revelation.

The "potential limitation" is only in your head. Reality is not "potential limitation" but no such possibility.

The same applies to you!

I do recognize the fact that you, as an unbeliever, have to be bias and potentially limited in your understanding of the fact about the Qur'an and Islam as a whole. You have to disagree with us or else you can't stay an unbeliever.
Even if your claim is true, why must I be a believer of the Quran. First there is no convincing proofs God exists as real.
Besides the spiritual message of the Quran is of very low grade and corrupted with lots of evil laden elements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Have you been reading up of research to show that this is not possible at all.
I had read up on whatever relevant research on the difficulty of 100% replication of knowledge from one source to another. It is especially more difficult when the emotional, subjective elements are factor in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
For hadith, Yes, but for the Qur'an, No. The Qur'an wasn't passed on by one to another but by the thousands to thousands in exact same words. Go to any country, the Arabic Qur'an is in exact same words. Even the 1400 years old manuscripts at Birmingham University prove this to be the case.
The principles of those research findings are the same for all texts, i.e. Quran, Ahadiths, Bible, etc.
I don't believe you have read the appropriate research in relation to this generic principle in relation to the veracity of oral and all sorts of perceptions and communications.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:30 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Even if your claim is true, why must I be a believer of the Quran. First there is no convincing proofs God exists as real.
I don't expect you to be a believer in the Qur'an.

[10.96] Surely those against whom the word of your Lord has proved true will not believe.

[2.6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

[26.201] They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.


Quote:
Besides the spiritual message of the Quran is of very low grade and corrupted with lots of evil laden elements.
That is because you can't understand it. You are better off reading primary school books that you can understand.

Quote:
The principles of those research findings are the same for all texts, i.e. Quran, Ahadiths, Bible, etc.
I don't believe you have read the appropriate research in relation to this generic principle in relation to the veracity of oral and all sorts of perceptions and communications.
You carry on reading the crap written against the Qur'an. I am sure you like it.

[18.106] Thus it is that their recompense is hell, because they disbelieved and held My Ayat and My messengers in mockery.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:38 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't expect you to be a believer in the Qur'an.

[10.96] Surely those against whom the word of your Lord has proved true will not believe.

[2.6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

[26.201] They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.


That is because you can't understand it. You are better off reading primary school books that you can understand.

You carry on reading the crap written against the Qur'an. I am sure you like it.

[18.106] Thus it is that their recompense is hell, because they disbelieved and held My Ayat and My messengers in mockery.
People can and will believe in whatever they decide to believe (or not believe). The trouble comes when one group starts in with terrorism and rioting and pedophilia and mass rape and slavery and slaughter and torture ..... any human rights violation in the name of that belief, or lack of belief.

Today we only have to look at reality to find which belief system is behind much (not all) of the mess. Look at Europe. Look at the middle east. Who is mass raping? Who is rioting? Who is doing acts of terrorism? Who is emigrating and starting all kinds of trouble? Who is mostly behind the slavery of today? Who has child brides and honor killings? Who does not win many Nobel Prizes? Who turns their backs on individual rights? Who promotes apostasy? Which countries have ethnic cleansing and genocide?

This is not brain surgery. The evidence is glaring.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:02 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.....Thus it is that their recompense is hell, because they disbelieved and held My Ayat and My messengers in mockery.
Again the threats of physical violence and hate. This is what good people turn AGAINST! If I come to you and say to believe in Scientology or you will have a terrible punishment at the hands of the thetans who will start fires all over your body and pour oil on the fires till you skin bubbles up ... will this make you believe in Scientology? If you look at Scientology and see the members are rioting and doing terrorism and spreading hate and slaughtering non-Scientologists, what does this make you think of Scientology? What if you learn that Scientology is based on nonsense:

" advanced teachings is the story of Xenu (sometimes Xemu), introduced as the tyrant ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy". According to this story, 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft resembling Douglas DC-8 airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and detonated hydrogen bombs in the volcanoes. The thetans then clustered together, stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to do this today. Scientologists at advanced levels place considerable emphasis on isolating body thetans and neutralizing their ill effects."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

Your Islam seems like nonsense to many people as Scientology must (I hope) seem to you. But maybe Scientologists think you are evil because you choose not to believe in Scientology and maybe they think you should be slaughtered. Maybe they hate you and want to run you out of your countries. Maybe they want to take over your schools and teach your children all about how great Scientology is. And maybe if you speak against Scientology they will make laws to shut you up and say that:

"They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.....Thus it is that their recompense is hell, because they disbelieved and held Xenu and the thetans in mockery."

And then Scientologists blow up mosques. They emigrate to Muslim countries and start wars. They start raping Muslim women and children and rioting. Maybe take Muslims as slaves.

Well, that is what Muslims are doing. And I am seeing hate for Muslim grow every day. Just like you would hate Scientologists if they were doing this to you. How much would you take before you act to protect your family? Your values? Your life?
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Old 05-20-2016, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the claim that the present Quran is in the form of the exact words as it was revealed is not feasible at all and an impossibility when we take fallible human nature into account.

Have you been reading up of research to show that this is not possible at all.
I had read up on whatever relevant research on the difficulty of 100% replication of knowledge from one source to another. It is especially more difficult when the emotional, subjective elements are factor in.

As I had stated even with a hard copy of texts right in front of another, there is still the high possibility of the other person not getting the essential message. What more with oral transmission 1,400 years ago when the literacy and intellectual standards of the average Quraishi is that low.

In addition, many of those who had received the oral transmission in their memory died in the many wars and fighting that Muhammad was involved with.

With the above potential limitations, it would not be possible for the present Quran to be in exactly the same words as it was revealed to Muhammad 1,400 years ago.

Your insistence that the present Quran is the exactly the same in terms of every word as the one revealed to Muhammad, is driven by desperate existential psychology. This is based on confirmation bias, i.e. you are bias to what you believe it should be and not what it really was.

You must recognize the fact that as a believer you MUST be bias and cannot have doubts even when reality implied otherwise.

However we have the Uthman Qur'an to compare todays Qur'an with. It was written about 30 years after the death of Muhammad(saws). And the original is still intact after almost 1400 years and is still readable.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-20-2016 at 12:31 AM..
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