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Old 05-20-2016, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However we have the Uthman Qur'an to compare todays Qur'an with. It was written about 30 years after the death of Muhammad(saws). And the original is still intact after almost 1400 years and is still readable.
This is not going to support your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
The copy of the Quran is traditionally considered to be one of a group commissioned by the third caliph Uthman; however, this attribution has been questioned, although no evidence was proffered.

The manuscript is incomplete:[1] it begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10. The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation.
-wiki
In addition, Uthman burned all other Qurans which were not acceptable and standardized.

Therefore comparing the present Quran to a partial Uthman Quran do not confirm they are the same.


Now, EVEN if [assuming] the present Quran is exactly the same as the Uthman Quran, it is impossible to say the Uthman Quran is exactly the same as the one recited by Muhammad.

Another point is, because of limited mind factors, EVEN the one recited by Muhammad cannot be exactly the same one as recited by Angel Gabriel.

Still another point, EVEN the one recited by Gabriel cannot be exactly the same one as recited by Allah [if Allah exists as real].

Given all the great odds stacked against your claim, it is not likely the present Quran is in exactly the same Quran as delivered by Allah [if Allah exists as real].


My claim is;
Why Muslims insist the present Quran is exactly the same as what Allah [if Allah exists] delivered in 610-632AD, is because they [as desperate suffering souls] need such affirmation to soothe the terrible psychological angst within their psyche.
It is nothing more than a psychological issue within the Muslims' mind and there is no God that exists as real at all.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is not going to support your case.



In addition, Uthman burned all other Qurans which were not acceptable and standardized.

Therefore comparing the present Quran to a partial Uthman Quran do not confirm they are the same.


Now, EVEN if [assuming] the present Quran is exactly the same as the Uthman Quran, it is impossible to say the Uthman Quran is exactly the same as the one recited by Muhammad.

Another point is, because of limited mind factors, EVEN the one recited by Muhammad cannot be exactly the same one as recited by Angel Gabriel.

Still another point, EVEN the one recited by Gabriel cannot be exactly the same one as recited by Allah [if Allah exists as real].

Given all the great odds stacked against your claim, it is not likely the present Quran is in exactly the same Quran as delivered by Allah [if Allah exists as real].


My claim is;
Why Muslims insist the present Quran is exactly the same as what Allah [if Allah exists] delivered in 610-632AD, is because they [as desperate suffering souls] need such affirmation to soothe the terrible psychological angst within their psyche.
It is nothing more than a psychological issue within the Muslims' mind and there is no God that exists as real at all.
I would not say the odds are stacked against me, it is quite easy to verify every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are in the Uthman Qur'an. The Question is is the Uthman Qur'an the exact same words Muhammad recited. It does not seem likely Uthman could have pulled of a fraud with so many Hafiz that had actually witnessed Muhammad(saws) speaking.

It would probably be far easier to 'Prove" the signers of the USA declaration of Independence did not sign it. I doubt you would be able to prove that.

As for Jibril not repeating exactly what Allaah(swt) said. We believe that angels are created as perfect messengers without free will. Basically living recording devices incapable of changing what they are directed to do. which is why we believe Iblis was not an angel as he had the free will and ability to be a Shaytan.

Yes it is impossible to prove the Uthman Qur'an is exactly the same as what Muhammad. However when on considers that the Hafiz at the time actually heard the Recitations from Muhammad Himself.

Yes Uthman destroyed all the scribes notes that were not in the Kufic Script. there were numerous scripts being developed at the time. Arabic was still in the stages of developing it's own Alphabet. It makes sense to limit the written language to just one alphabet
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:27 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I would not say the odds are stacked against me, it is quite easy to verify every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are in the Uthman Qur'an.
The odds are certainly stacked against those who have doubts about the Qur'an not being the same as put together by Abu Bakr, and the copy given to Hafsa.

Quote:
The Question is is the Uthman Qur'an the exact same words Muhammad recited. It does not seem likely Uthman could have pulled of a fraud with so many Hafiz that had actually witnessed Muhammad(saws) speaking.
Uthman Qur'an is the same Qur'an as Abu Bakr Qur'an and Abu Bakr Qur'an is the same Qur'an as the scribes wrote and all the Hafiz memorized, and the Qur'an that Muhammad recited. Uthman did not change any words but added the pronunciation marks to each word. Then he gave the original back to Hafsa. That means, Uthman did not destroy the original but kept it with Hafsa so that Uthman's copy can be verified with the original in possession of Hafsa.

Quote:
As for Jibril not repeating exactly what Allaah(swt) said. We believe that angels are created as perfect messengers without free will. Basically living recording devices incapable of changing what they are directed to do. which is why we believe Iblis was not an angel as he had the free will and ability to be a Shaytan.
You are correct!

Angels do as Allah (SWT) commands them to do:

[66.6] O you who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is humans and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.

Iblis was not angel but of Jinn (18:50). Jinn are, like angels are, invisible (to us) created beings but, unlike angels, are created from smokeless fire.

Quote:
Yes it is impossible to prove the Uthman Qur'an is exactly the same as what Muhammad. However when on considers that the Hafiz at the time actually heard the Recitations from Muhammad Himself.
There is no way any Hafiz would have allowed the change. This is why every Hafiz recites the exact same Qur'an word by word and letter by letter even today in any country of the world.
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I would not say the odds are stacked against me, it is quite easy to verify every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are in the Uthman Qur'an. The Question is is the Uthman Qur'an the exact same words Muhammad recited. It does not seem likely Uthman could have pulled of a fraud with so many Hafiz that had actually witnessed Muhammad(saws) speaking.

It would probably be far easier to 'Prove" the signers of the USA declaration of Independence did not sign it. I doubt you would be able to prove that.
It is possible 'every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are found in the partial Uthman Quran'.
Because as I said, the Uthman Quran is not complete, as such there is no way your claim can be 100% true.

Besides I personally not sure every Hafiz recites exactly the same what from the Uthman partial Quran.
Do you have any links to support this?

Quote:
The Question is is the Uthman Qur'an the exact same words Muhammad recited.
The Uthman Quran is only a partial Quran not the whole Quran [114 chapters].
Because there are a oral phase from Muhammad to scribes, there is a great possibility of various elements being lost in from Muhammad [fallible human] to the scribes [fallible human].
The fact given such fallible humans conditions, no one can make a 100% claim.
The best given those conditions in the 7th century would probably be 80% and thus realistically you cannot have your exactness [100%] claim.

Quote:
As for Jibril not repeating exactly what Allaah(swt) said. We believe that angels are created as perfect messengers without free will. Basically living recording devices incapable of changing what they are directed to do. which is why we believe Iblis was not an angel as he had the free will and ability to be a Shaytan.
That is only your subjective claim.
There is no proofs angels exist in reality.
Therefore the Quran is grounded on falsehoods re this element of angels.

Quote:
Yes it is impossible to prove the Uthman Qur'an is exactly the same as what Muhammad. However when on considers that the Hafiz at the time actually heard the Recitations from Muhammad Himself.

Yes Uthman destroyed all the scribes notes that were not in the Kufic Script. there were numerous scripts being developed at the time. Arabic was still in the stages of developing it's own Alphabet. It makes sense to limit the written language to just one alphabet
As I mentioned the odds are stacked against your claim or anyone's claims the current Quran is 100% exactly the same as the one Muhammad recited.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-20-2016 at 11:45 PM..
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Old 05-21-2016, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
It makes sense to limit the written language to just one alphabet.
It does not make historical sense nor promote a sense of intellectual integrity to destroy other copies.

However it is possible and most likely [natural with any texts] there were confusions, contradictions, errors, or even nonsensical elements in the other copies from different scribes.

Assuming Muhammad recited the Quran [I don't agree with this assumption], it is very possible there were different people [scribes] hearing from Muhammad and writing differently based from what they heard.

Thus all various copies from different sources were destroyed to avoid confusions. As such with this destruction of the Qurans, the evidence that humans are prone to errors in the course of communication from oral to texts and from texts to texts are destroyed.
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Old 05-21-2016, 01:00 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is possible 'every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are found in the partial Uthman Quran'.
Every Hafiz has been reciting the original Qur'an that Muhammad recited, Abu Bakr recited, Umar recited, Uthman recited, Ali recited from the outset. This is how the original Qur'an has been preserved. This is why every Hafiz recites the same Qur'an even today in any country in the world. And you can do nothing about it except just argue in ignorance of the fact.

Quote:
Because as I said, the Uthman Quran is not complete, as such there is no way your claim can be 100% true.
The claim is 100% true!
The complete Qur'an is preserved in the memory of millions, and it is not partial but complete.

Quote:
Besides I personally not sure every Hafiz recites exactly the same what from the Uthman partial Quran.
Do you have any links to support this?
What! You want Woodrow to give you link to millions of recitations of every Hafiz?

The problem lies with you; you are not sure even about your own argument.

Quote:
The Uthman Quran is only a partial Quran not the whole Quran [114 chapters].
Because there are a oral phase from Muhammad to scribes, there is a great possibility of various elements being lost in from Muhammad [fallible human] to the scribes [fallible human].
The fact given such fallible humans conditions, no one can make a 100% claim.
The best given those conditions in the 7th century would probably be 80% and thus realistically you cannot have your exactness [100%] claim.
Unlike your argument, which you regard only a possibility, but you are not even sure, we are 100% sure that (a) many had memorized the original revelation of the Qur'an to Muhammad and (b) have been doing so all the time ever since then. This is why not even an iota can be either taken away or added in the original Qur'an. Miss just one dot in printing and the copy will have to be destroyed.
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Old 05-21-2016, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Every Hafiz has been reciting the original Qur'an that Muhammad recited, Abu Bakr recited, Umar recited, Uthman recited, Ali recited from the outset. This is how the original Qur'an has been preserved. This is why every Hafiz recites the same Qur'an even today in any country in the world. And you can do nothing about it except just argue in ignorance of the fact.
What you are relying on is merely faith, i.e. beliefs not based on proofs nor justifiable reasons.

Quote:
The claim is 100% true!
The complete Qur'an is preserved in the memory of millions, and it is not partial but complete.
You are not following the discussion.
The copy of the Uthman in the Taskent Museum is only a partial copy not with 114 chapters.
Because it is not complete, the argument that it is 100% the exact copy of what is recited to Muhammad is baseless and not possible at all.

Quote:
What! You want Woodrow to give you link to millions of recitations of every Hafiz?
As usual you are not following the discussion.
I am asking whether any one has any link to any write up or argument that prove every Hafiz has recited the same Quran.

Quote:
The problem lies with you; you are not sure even about your own argument.

Unlike your argument, which you regard only a possibility, but you are not even sure, we are 100% sure that (a) many had memorized the original revelation of the Qur'an to Muhammad and (b) have been doing so all the time ever since then. This is why not even an iota can be either taken away or added in the original Qur'an. Miss just one dot in printing and the copy will have to be destroyed.
Note this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwo5xpO390k

In the above video, Tom Holland, a very famous historian who had done extensive research on the subject, argued from the historical point of view, it is impossible for the Quran to be from a God who had delivered a message of the Quran via prophet Muhammad.

Tom Holland agreed with my views, i.e. a Muslim has to believe regardless of whatever to the contrary, the Quran MUST be from a God to Muhammad, otherwise his faith will not work and that Muslim will end up in Hell.
But Holland emphasized, as a historian who has to adopt an objective view, the evidence do not point to the claim that the Quran is from God.
Suggest you listen to that short video - only 10 minutes to get to the truth.

Tom Holland did a detailed documentary to argue his case that the Quran cannot come from God nor a person named Muhammad;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKk0L6H1ms

Last edited by Continuum; 05-21-2016 at 01:36 AM..
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Old 05-21-2016, 03:16 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Every Hafiz has been reciting the original Qur'an that Muhammad recited, Abu Bakr recited, Umar recited, Uthman recited, Ali recited from the outset. This is how the original Qur'an has been preserved. This is why every Hafiz recites the same Qur'an even today in any country in the world. And you can do nothing about it except just argue in ignorance of the fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you are relying on is merely faith, i.e. beliefs not based on proofs nor justifiable reasons.
You are blind to the justifiable reason given above. When you have nothing against this reason, you start parroting the same crap that I have read from you many times already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The claim is 100% true!
The complete Qur'an is preserved in the memory of millions, and it is not partial but complete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are not following the discussion.
The copy of the Uthman in the Taskent Museum is only a partial copy not with 114 chapters.
Because it is not complete, the argument that it is 100% the exact copy of what is recited to Muhammad is baseless and not possible at all.
You are not reading my reason that the Qur'an in our hands today is exact same as recited by Muhammad and memorized by his companions, and every Hafiz ever since then. If the Qur'an in our hands today hadn't been the same as the original, many Hafeez would have been reciting it differently. There is no way they could recite the same word by word unless it is the original recited by Muhammad.
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:05 AM
 
39,172 posts, read 10,865,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I would not say the odds are stacked against me, it is quite easy to verify every Hafiz today recites the exact same words that are in the Uthman Qur'an. The Question is is the Uthman Qur'an the exact same words Muhammad recited. It does not seem likely Uthman could have pulled of a fraud with so many Hafiz that had actually witnessed Muhammad(saws) speaking.

It would probably be far easier to 'Prove" the signers of the USA declaration of Independence did not sign it. I doubt you would be able to prove that.

As for Jibril not repeating exactly what Allaah(swt) said. We believe that angels are created as perfect messengers without free will. Basically living recording devices incapable of changing what they are directed to do. which is why we believe Iblis was not an angel as he had the free will and ability to be a Shaytan.

Yes it is impossible to prove the Uthman Qur'an is exactly the same as what Muhammad. However when on considers that the Hafiz at the time actually heard the Recitations from Muhammad Himself.

Yes Uthman destroyed all the scribes notes that were not in the Kufic Script. there were numerous scripts being developed at the time. Arabic was still in the stages of developing it's own Alphabet. It makes sense to limit the written language to just one alphabet
Nobody says you don't argue very well,old friend. Our discussion (on this or another similar thread) left me with a strong suspicion that the recollections which nevertheless needed to be augmented with passages on bits of wood, leather or pebbles don't sound like the massive poetic volume that Uthman produced from his palace. All other relevant text being eliminated. How very like the elimination of anything but the Constantine Bible, the lost gospels only turning up much later.

Now the point is that only Allah's words (transmitted faithfully by an angel) could be such magnificent and inimitable poetry. I recall you tried to imitate it and couldn't. I have heard some ex -muslims say not so much that it was magnificent but very old. I can compare that with the reverence for the splendour of the KJV language, which to goddless bastards like me is a bit quaint and open to being spoofed. The faithful would doubtless say that my imitations were 'harsh' and tuneless, I believe you said of your own attempts at Quranic arabic.

So KJV -chat was far from uncommon in the 16th and 17 th c. in poetic life. I read that poetry was just as important in 6th c Arabia. It is hardly surprising that an authorized Quran would be written by the best poets available.

Those who heard Muhammad speak? "Don't seem to be around. But they were there, trust me. The stones and bits of leather with the words on? Gone. Don't need them. We chucked them away." Easy to explain away if anyone should dare to ask, why a wonderful religious book should appear out of nowhere.

Now, this is all hypothetical, but it does make as much sense as a book dictated by an angelic mouthpiece for a god. But what makes me think that my explanation is the better is that we know the Quran contains some claims that are scientific nonsense. Thus it has to be the work of men not of a god.
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Old 05-21-2016, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It does not make historical sense nor promote a sense of intellectual integrity to destroy other copies.

However it is possible and most likely [natural with any texts] there were confusions, contradictions, errors, or even nonsensical elements in the other copies from different scribes.

Assuming Muhammad recited the Quran [I don't agree with this assumption], it is very possible there were different people [scribes] hearing from Muhammad and writing differently based from what they heard.

Thus all various copies from different sources were destroyed to avoid confusions. As such with this destruction of the Qurans, the evidence that humans are prone to errors in the course of communication from oral to texts and from texts to texts are destroyed.
the reason for destroying them was to avoid confusion. their existence would have been of no importance at the time as most people did not read. Writing was primarily limited to the wealthy. and the scribes. I personally wish they have been preserved simply for historical value. but then again if they had been saved it is possible they would have become revered and worshiped as they were written while Muhammad(saws) was still alive and possibly he even touched them. Muhammad(saws0 did caution that he and anything he possessed was not to be revered. but some of us do violate his wishes as some Muslims do celebrate Muhammad(saws)'s birthday, which we are forbidden to do. I think the wisdom behind destroying the old ones was to prevent them from being revered. I suspect if they weren't destroyed one of them would have been passed off as being the "Personal Qur'an" owned by Muhammad(saws) and it would be an object of worship. Look at what happened during the Crusades with splinters of wood alleged to have been from the cross Jesus(as) was crucified on and Crucifixion nails, which are still being sold with the implication they could be/might be the genuine ones.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2871378...FD8aAoI88P8HAQ
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