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Old 05-22-2016, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are blind to the justifiable reason given above. When you have nothing against this reason, you start parroting the same crap that I have read from you many times already.

You are not reading my reason that the Qur'an in our hands today is exact same as recited by Muhammad and memorized by his companions, and every Hafiz ever since then. If the Qur'an in our hands today hadn't been the same as the original, many Hafeez would have been reciting it differently. There is no way they could recite the same word by word unless it is the original recited by Muhammad.
You are insisting you are right merely to conform to what you wish to be correct.

You are denying the facts of human nature and the limitations of oral and textual transmissions and the various issues [historical etc.] surrounding the Uthman Quran.

There is no way you can confirm every Hafiz have been reciting the same Quran from 7th century to 21st century. The could be many Hafiz reciting many different versions of the Quran from 610 to 675 [say] till it was standardized much later.

The Uthman Quran is merely a partial Quran and not the whole Quran.
In this case, how can a partial Quran of 7-8th century confirm the whole Quran of the present.
This is an impossibility.

You are trying to force square pegs into round holes for your own psychological reasons.
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Old 05-22-2016, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the reason for destroying them was to avoid confusion. their existence would have been of no importance at the time as most people did not read. Writing was primarily limited to the wealthy. and the scribes. I personally wish they have been preserved simply for historical value. but then again if they had been saved it is possible they would have become revered and worshiped as they were written while Muhammad(saws) was still alive and possibly he even touched them. Muhammad(saws0 did caution that he and anything he possessed was not to be revered. but some of us do violate his wishes as some Muslims do celebrate Muhammad(saws)'s birthday, which we are forbidden to do. I think the wisdom behind destroying the old ones was to prevent them from being revered. I suspect if they weren't destroyed one of them would have been passed off as being the "Personal Qur'an" owned by Muhammad(saws) and it would be an object of worship. Look at what happened during the Crusades with splinters of wood alleged to have been from the cross Jesus(as) was crucified on and Crucifixion nails, which are still being sold with the implication they could be/might be the genuine ones.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2871378...FD8aAoI88P8HAQ
The reason for destroying the other copies could possibly be to avoid confusion.

But there was potential confusion if only there were errors and differences between those copies.

IF the Quran was from God there should not be any confusion since Allah claimed the Quran was supposed to be easy to remember and thus understood.
If there is no potential confusion despite other copies, then there is no reason for them to be destroyed.

Note there are many other possible reasons why the various copies of Quran were destroyed by Uthman.

One reason given was Uthman and those in power then wanted something to control the masses within the enlarging empire and a holy text is one of the most effective to control the masses. So they compiled the Quran with Muhammad [possibly a warlord then] as the main character.
To do a quick job the people involved plagiarized and 'parasited' from the texts of Judaism and Christianity.
This is a very possible reason because it justify the historical events that had taken place since the 7th century till now.

As I had stated as a believer and Muslim you MUST accept whatever suit your expectations to soothe your psychology.
Can you deny the very possible reason as supported by historical facts [or absence of evidences] that the Quran was a power tool for Uthman that was compiled by a group of people [clergy and politicians]?

The rational position is in the presence of so many unconfirmed contending views, you don't have the justifications to insist your view is absolute nor even right over all other views.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The reason for destroying the other copies could possibly be to avoid confusion.

But there was potential confusion if only there were errors and differences between those copies.

IF the Quran was from God there should not be any confusion since Allah claimed the Quran was supposed to be easy to remember and thus understood.
If there is no potential confusion despite other copies, then there is no reason for them to be destroyed.

Note there are many other possible reasons why the various copies of Quran were destroyed by Uthman.

One reason given was Uthman and those in power then wanted something to control the masses within the enlarging empire and a holy text is one of the most effective to control the masses. So they compiled the Quran with Muhammad [possibly a warlord then] as the main character.
To do a quick job the people involved plagiarized and 'parasited' from the texts of Judaism and Christianity.
This is a very possible reason because it justify the historical events that had taken place since the 7th century till now.

As I had stated as a believer and Muslim you MUST accept whatever suit your expectations to soothe your psychology.
Can you deny the very possible reason as supported by historical facts [or absence of evidences] that the Quran was a power tool for Uthman that was compiled by a group of people [clergy and politicians]?

The rational position is in the presence of so many unconfirmed contending views, you don't have the justifications to insist your view is absolute nor even right over all other views.
At the time of the need for scribes, writing was not for preservation and transmission. It was to be a memory aide to assist the Scribe. the biggest error and problem withthe scripts used by the individual scribes it would be very difficult if not impossible to verify what the scribe had written after the death of the scribe. It is very probable some of the scribes had their own personal alphabet understood only by the scribe doing the writing. There was not yet any established Arabic Alphabet.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:39 AM
 
39,039 posts, read 10,831,421 times
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I don't know so much. If we suppose that Uthman's Quran was the result of getting the words from the fullest reliable sources, then the others would be regarded as inferior drafts, surely. and what if they were regarded as holy objects? Reverence for oe item doesn't take away from the others, any more than the various ancient mosques take away from the supremacy of the Kaaba. As I say, I don't know, but it sure looks as though Uthman wanted his version to be accepted and no contradictions or questions.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I don't know so much. If we suppose that Uthman's Quran was the result of getting the words from the fullest reliable sources, then the others would be regarded as inferior drafts, surely. and what if they were regarded as holy objects? Reverence for oe item doesn't take away from the others, any more than the various ancient mosques take away from the supremacy of the Kaaba. As I say, I don't know, but it sure looks as though Uthman wanted his version to be accepted and no contradictions or questions.
Keep in mind at the time the Uthman Qurns were written many, perhaps even most of the original witnesses to the revelations were still living. (Uthman himself was one of the Sahabah) It would not be probable for Uthman to have changed as much as one word without the surviving Sahabah noticing it.
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Old 05-22-2016, 06:03 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
On an attitude of false arrogance, the Quran Allah challenged non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar] to produce a sura, ten surahs or the Quran the like thereof as in the following verses;
2:23. And if ye [infidels] are in doubt concerning that [Quran] which We [Allah] reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses [partners, gods] beside Allah if ye [infidels] are truthful.

10:38. Or say they [infidels]: He [Muhammad] hath invented it? Say [O Muhammad]: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) [from the partners, gods, angels] on all ye [infidels] can besides Allah, if ye [infidels] are truthful.

11:13. Or they [infidels] say: He hath invented it. Say [Muhammad]: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

17:88. Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.

28:49. Say (unto them [infidels], O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two [the Pentateuch and the Quran ] (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

52:34. Then let them [infidels] produce speech [the Quran] the like thereof, if they [infidels] are truthful:
I have done very extensive research on the main religions [especially the Eastern religions] of the world and comparatively the Quran is one of the very lesser grade of holy texts amongst all the main religions, example,

1. Buddhism - e.g. Avatamsaka Sutra and many others.
2. Hinduism - Bhagavad Gita and many others
3. Taoism - Tao Te Ching
4. Christianity - the Gospels
5. Judaism - Torah [had not dig deep into this]

Therefore to accept the challenge of the Quran to produce a better holy text than the Quran, all we need to do is to produce the above holy texts.


Accepting the Challenge
To accept the challenge of 2:23 and 10:38 I produce
-I. the 4 Noble Truths and
-II. the Noble 8 Fold Paths
of Buddhism which is a million times more realistic and effective than any sura in the Quran;
A. The Four Noble Truths -4NT
1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha i.e. the 8FP below;
B. The Noble Eightfold Paths [8FP].
Wisdom
1 Right view
2 Right intention

Ethical conduct
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood

Concentration
6 Right effort
7 Right mindfulness
8 Right concentration

C. Is Problem solved?
If not, go back to A above and go through the process,
If yes, review for improvements and standardization, then be aware [not worry over] of life problems at all times.

The 4NT & 8FP is a model of a very complete, systematic and effective generic problem solving technique that is applicable to every problem in life especially the mother of all problem, the existential dilemma or existential crisis.
The 4NT & 8FP is like a doctor's approach to diagnose a medical problem and find a cure to it, and such a model is used by all problem solvers.

My Point:
I have done extensive study of the Quran.
In comparison to the Quran, the above more superior texts and verses from Buddhism, other Eastern Religions and other main religions are much more superior to the Quran.
Thus the challenge of the Quran [re verses above] in thinking itself as most superior over the texts of other religion is based on false arrogance.

Agree/disagree? and provide justifications of why and how?
i am agree
this is some reasons
Index Koran contrary to logic and reason

Indexing the Koran and according to the length of the fence
Koran begins, featuring according to the length of the sura
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Old 05-23-2016, 04:12 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are insisting you are right merely to conform to what you wish to be correct.
No. I am insisting that what I stated here is the only possibility.

Quote:
You are denying the facts of human nature and the limitations of oral and textual transmissions and the various issues [historical etc.] surrounding the Uthman Quran.
Oral transmission and textual transmission on their own have limitations but when one is backed by the other, any limitation of one is completely eliminated. The Uthman Qur'an was established with the backing from both textual (in possession of Hafsa) and oral (memory of at least two Hafiz confirming the text).

Quote:
There is no way you can confirm every Hafiz have been reciting the same Quran from 7th century to 21st century.
That's the beauty of the preservation of the Qur'an; there have never been variation even by one word ever. If there had ever been any variation, it would have been carried on from teachers to students ever since then and we would have been unable to control the variations. No variation is clearly the proof of preservation of the Qur'an from the outset.

Quote:
The could be many Hafiz reciting many different versions of the Quran from 610 to 675 [say] till it was standardized much later.
You don't even know what is meant by being "standardized". To me, it is being double checked and double checked again for its accuracy in memory and in text form at the same time. There was no chance of any Hafiz allowing any change at any time.

Quote:
The Uthman Quran is merely a partial Quran and not the whole Quran.
It is the whole Qur'an even if the original text on paper is not preserved for 1400 years. It is still preserved in memory of thousands of Hafiz in the world word by word even to this day. It was certainly preserved in both text and memory at the time of Uthman. There was no possibility of any word being added in the original Qur'an when the original textual copy was with them and all the Hafiz present to confirm it.

If you are thinking that there is no full textual copy of the original present today and any preserved Uthman Qur'an is incomplete in text then that would have been a perfect reason to have variation in recitations of millions of Hafiz all over the world.

Can you think of a reason why they are all reciting the exact same complete Qur'an all over the world today?

Quote:
In this case, how can a partial Quran of 7-8th century confirm the whole Quran of the present.
This is an impossibility.
You are not thinking straight here!

It is not a partial Qur'an in the memory of thousands and thousands of Hafiz in many countries. They have been reciting the same full Qur'an all the time without there ever being no Hafiz at any time.

Quote:
You are trying to force square pegs into round holes for your own psychological reasons.
No. Instead, you are trying to do so, and you have absolutely no hope of succeeding. I have no psychological reason; never have, despite your parroting. You are only imagining so! Perhaps you have never read my status.

The Qur'an is never going to be changed by even one letter. Never!
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Old 05-23-2016, 04:27 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I don't know so much. If we suppose that Uthman's Quran was the result of getting the words from the fullest reliable sources, then the others would be regarded as inferior drafts, surely. and what if they were regarded as holy objects? Reverence for oe item doesn't take away from the others, any more than the various ancient mosques take away from the supremacy of the Kaaba. As I say, I don't know, but it sure looks as though Uthman wanted his version to be accepted and no contradictions or questions.
It wasn't Uthman "version". There has never been any other version in Arabic. Uthman did not change even one word. He had merely put in pronunciation marks on original letters of original words. The Arabic alphabet does not have those pronunciation marks as the Arabic speakers know how to say any Arabic word. A non-Arabic speaker, say, in Iran, Pakistan, India, Indonesia would not know how to pronounce an Arabic Qur'an word. These marks help greatly in reciting the Qur'an by, say, Persian and Urdu speakers who are familiar with Arabic alphabet but not Arabic word pronunciation.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. I am insisting that what I stated here is the only possibility.
In that case there is no 100% certainty from you and thus there is also the possibility you are wrong.
What you are saying is, there is the possibility [high] that present Quran is exactly the same as the original.
From my arguments I have presented, it is more likely possible that you are more wrong than right.

Quote:
Oral transmission and textual transmission on their own have limitations but when one is backed by the other, any limitation of one is completely eliminated. The Uthman Qur'an was established with the backing from both textual (in possession of Hafsa) and oral (memory of at least two Hafiz confirming the text).
Completely eliminated?? That is impossible.
Do you have any evidence to show that the Uthman Quran Copy [whatever the partial chapters] are exactly the same as the present Quran? Any links to any researched evidence.

Quote:
That's the beauty of the preservation of the Qur'an; there have never been variation even by one word ever. If there had ever been any variation, it would have been carried on from teachers to students ever since then and we would have been unable to control the variations. No variation is clearly the proof of preservation of the Qur'an from the outset.
Unless there is the original copy written down by Muhammad himself there are then, there is no way [limited by fallible human nature] the present Quran can be the same as the original Quran.

Quote:
You don't even know what is meant by being "standardized". To me, it is being double checked and double checked again for its accuracy in memory and in text form at the same time. There was no chance of any Hafiz allowing any change at any time.
Don't be too cocksure yourself on what I meant by standardization.
The only reasonable sure of the Quran being standardize is when there is a textual copy for comparison it is the same at all times.
The Uthman copy cannot be the standard copy because it is partial.

Quote:
It is the whole Qur'an even if the original text on paper is not preserved for 1400 years. It is still preserved in memory of thousands of Hafiz in the world word by word even to this day. It was certainly preserved in both text and memory at the time of Uthman. There was no possibility of any word being added in the original Qur'an when the original textual copy was with them and all the Hafiz present to confirm it.
Memory is a VERY limited faculty and thus very vulnerable to error.

Example -limitation of memory:
1. A gang of 10 committed a murder.
2. Obviously they think they can "remember" the details of the murder in their memory.
3. They are aware they cannot run far and will be caught.
4. To deny the murder they have to come up with a consistent story, alibi, etc.
5. So they decide to get together to tell their story.
6. When they got together and discuss what to say to the police they [naturally as humans] noted there were differences from what they had recalled from memory.
7. The point is they must all be consistent when they are questioned by the police independently.
8. So what they do is to make sure there is one standard answer when they are questioned.
9. To standardize they have to ignore the variations and stick to one version only.
10. They then have to implant the new story into the mind and remember it by hard, or write it down to facilitate their memory.

The above procedure [btw not event] is exactly the same as how the Quran was standardized as in 9.

Quote:
If you are thinking that there is no full textual copy of the original present today and any preserved Uthman Qur'an is incomplete in text then that would have been a perfect reason to have variation in recitations of millions of Hafiz all over the world.
I thought I mentioned the Uthman Quran is incomplete, i.e. ONLY 42+ chapters out of the 114 chapters note:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
The manuscript is incomplete:[1] it begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10.
The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_Quran
Quote:
Can you think of a reason why they are all reciting the exact same complete Qur'an all over the world today?
Note point 9 in the example above.
At some point in time there was a consensus by humans to ensure the Quran is the same to ensure its credibility.
The time can be established by tracing the present Quran to is earliest exact full copy. [need to find out which is this].

Quote:
You are not thinking straight here!

It is not a partial Qur'an in the memory of thousands and thousands of Hafiz in many countries. They have been reciting the same full Qur'an all the time without there ever being no Hafiz at any time.
This is a very logical and rational question.
There is no way you can confirm every Hafiz [thousands or millions] has been reciting the same Quran until the Standardize textual copy was available.
Note the example of the limitation of memory I gave above.

Quote:
No. Instead, you are trying to do so, and you have absolutely no hope of succeeding. I have no psychological reason; never have, despite your parroting. You are only imagining so! Perhaps you have never read my status.
DNA wise ALL humans has that basic unavoidable inherent existential psychological issue within their psyche. The difference is merely the degree of control [modulating capability] a person has over that existential impulse.
The majority of humans [you being one of them] has weaker modulating capability to control that existential impulse and thus your desperation and has no other choice but to defend the illogical and irrationality, i.e. forcing square pegs into round holes.

Quote:
The Qur'an is never going to be changed by even one letter. Never!
It not likely it will not be changed from now onwards.
But the fact of human nature is from the day in 610AD Muhammad recited [if that is the case] till the Whole Quran was standardize in textual form, we can be 100% sure there will be lots of variations between the various orally and textually transmitted versions.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
@Khalif

Suggest you listen to this video to get an idea of the counters that prove why the present Quran cannot be exactly the same as the original recited by Muhammad [if that is a case].


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-4RH6Xv_Vs

Jay Smith referred to the earliest 6 copies of textual Quran [see below] available for investigation and they all are incomplete and has lots of errors and omissions.
1 Hijazi manuscripts
1.1 Sana'a manuscript
1.2 Codex Parisino-petropolitanus
1.3 BnF Arabe 328(c) and Birmingham fragment
1.4 Tübingen manuscript
2 Kufic manuscripts
2.1 Topkapi manuscript
2.2 Samarkand Kufic Quran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Quranic_manuscripts
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