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Old 05-25-2016, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
So just a bunch of threats. Nothing profound. Nothing at all that one would expect from a creator of the entire universe.
We had been given all the heeded revelations in the pasr. Tjhe Qur'an is a warning that we had best get them right. We had always messed them up.


Allaah(swt) is the creator, it is not his place to serve us.
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We had been given all the heeded revelations in the pasr. Tjhe Qur'an is a warning that we had best get them right. We had always messed them up.


Allaah(swt) is the creator, it is not his place to serve us.
So this allah has given all these warnings in the past and they were not heeded....so now he writes a sloppy book full of redundant threats of eternal tortures for unbelievers but orgies of food and women for those who submit to him. How profound!

The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE provides nothing slightly interesting to the rational mind. Then it picks an illiterate, power hungry sexual predator as a prophet and perfect example.

How is that working.... because now we have terrorism and Muslims killing each other and mass rapes by Muslims and rioting, etc. That book has caused more deaths than anything else that has existed. And this all knowing god couldn't grasp that his book would cause this? Looks to me like this book was written to stir things up!!

The warning is not to abolish slavery and live in peace ... not to ever rape ANY woman and certainly not a child. The warning, over and over, is to submit to this creator of the universe.

And why? Why in the universe would our belief even matter to such a creature?? We are not even a speck of sand on all the beaches in the world compared to what this thing supposedly created...and he's worried about me having sex while I am on my period?

2:222 Straight from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE:

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

Good grief!
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,334,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
So this allah has given all these warnings in the past and they were not heeded....so now he writes a sloppy book full of redundant threats of eternal tortures for unbelievers but orgies of food and women for those who submit to him. How profound!

The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE provides nothing slightly interesting to the rational mind. Then it picks an illiterate, power hungry sexual predator as a prophet and perfect example.

How is that working.... because now we have terrorism and Muslims killing each other and mass rapes by Muslims and rioting, etc. That book has caused more deaths than anything else that has existed. And this all knowing god couldn't grasp that his book would cause this? Looks to me like this book was written to stir things up!!

The warning is not to abolish slavery and live in peace ... not to ever rape ANY woman and certainly not a child. The warning, over and over, is to submit to this creator of the universe.

And why? Why in the universe would our belief even matter to such a creature?? We are not even a speck of sand on all the beaches in the world compared to what this thing supposedly created...and he's worried about me having sex while I am on my period?

2:222 Straight from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE:

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

Good grief!
Hell is described very similar in Christianity. It is not a new revelation.

Think of an entrepreneur and property developer. He goes into the slum section of a large City a part filled with filth, poverty, unemployment and very miserable living standards. He builds up a portion, builds a. "Three prong Widget factory" he pays an exceptionally high salary, offers free luxurious housing, excellent free benefits and grants all that a person desires. Everyone is free to apply for work, no one is turned down.those that do not desire to make widgets are not forced to, they are free to turn down the job offer and are free to live in the "slum neighborhood, with all of it's hardships.

Periodically the land developer warns the people in the slums of the misery they will face for eternity as long as they choose the slum life. Is that entrepreneur evil because he warns them of the pain they will continue to live in, as long as they choose to live the slum life?
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:48 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Hell is described very similar in Christianity. It is not a new revelation.

Think of an entrepreneur and property developer. He goes into the slum section of a large City a part filled with filth, poverty, unemployment and very miserable living standards. He builds up a portion, builds a. "Three prong Widget factory" he pays an exceptionally high salary, offers free luxurious housing, excellent free benefits and grants all that a person desires. Everyone is free to apply for work, no one is turned down.those that do not desire to make widgets are not forced to, they are free to turn down the job offer and are free to live in the "slum neighborhood, with all of it's hardships.

Periodically the land developer warns the people in the slums of the misery they will face for eternity as long as they choose the slum life. Is that entrepreneur evil because he warns them of the pain they will continue to live in, as long as they choose to live the slum life?
The whole idea of threatening people if they do not believe or do what you want has indeed been around for quite a while. Bad people use threats like this all the time. Just like allah.

Let's use your example but in a realistic way.

Think of an entrepreneur and property developer who created everything that exists. He goes into the slum section of a large City a part filled with filth, poverty, unemployment and very miserable living standards WHICH HE CREATED. He writes a book threatening (with horrible punishment unless they work for him) the people he created and that he allowed to make this horrible mess. He has also done this in the past, leaving the city even worse off than before. (Think of Detroit and the 'Model City' plan!!)

He promises the people who believe his latest scam a wonderful retirement at age 110 when he will start paying them with women and food and no more pooping or peeing and little boys to act as slaves and all that a greedy and perverted person desires. Until then, no salary will be paid.

Everyone is free to apply for work, no one is turned down. Except that those who do turn down the work are threatened with a retirement of horrible endless torture delivered personally by that very same entrepreneur and property developer. Those that do not desire to make widgets are not forced to, they are free to turn down the job offer and are free to live in the "slum neighborhood, with all of it's hardships under threat of eternal torture when they retire.

Except that those people who turn down the work do much better than those who accept jobs!! They make money, win Nobel Prizes! They create many wonderful inventions and learn about individual rights and are literate! They have FUN!! They live happy lives and flourish!! They eat BBQ pork and drink wine and dance and love and produce and the women can drive and show their hair! They even show the people who make widgets HOW to make widgets!!

The people who took the widget jobs hate them for their success and sometimes slaughter and rape them because they know that is what the great entrepreneur and property developer would want them to do. It is a hatred of the good for being good.

The end.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:11 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

Periodically the land developer warns the people in the slums of the misery they will face for eternity as long as they choose the slum life. Is that entrepreneur evil because he warns them of the pain they will continue to live in, as long as they choose to live the slum life?
The real question:
Periodically the land developer warns the people who don't want to live in his development of the misery he will inflict on them for eternity as long as they choose to live in places where men do not have sex with children and beat wives and own slaves and honor kill their children and make their wives wear garbage bags. Is that entrepreneur evil because he warns them of the pain he will inflict on them, as long as they choose to live a different life?

You bet he's evil. It is called initiating force, which is the root of all evil. Murder and rape and assault and theft and terrorism and torture...all evil. To interpose the threat of torture or murder between a man and his perception of reality is to negate and paralyze his means of survival. To force someone to act against their own judgment is like forcing him to act against his own sight. Whoever, including allah, to whatever purpose or extent, initiates the use of force, is a killer acting on the premise of death in a manner far wider than murder: the premise of destroying the human capacity to live. Morality ends where a gun, or sword, begins.

It is your 'land developer' who will be inflicting the endless and horrible torture. THAT is his evil. Allah is an evil torturer.

Thank GOODNESS that allah does not exist.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The real question:
Periodically the land developer warns the people who don't want to live in his development of the misery he will inflict on them for eternity as long as they choose to live in places where men do not have sex with children and beat wives and own slaves and honor kill their children and make their wives wear garbage bags. Is that entrepreneur evil because he warns them of the pain he will inflict on them, as long as they choose to live a different life?

You bet he's evil. It is called initiating force, which is the root of all evil. Murder and rape and assault and theft and terrorism and torture...all evil. To interpose the threat of torture or murder between a man and his perception of reality is to negate and paralyze his means of survival. To force someone to act against their own judgment is like forcing him to act against his own sight. Whoever, including allah, to whatever purpose or extent, initiates the use of force, is a killer acting on the premise of death in a manner far wider than murder: the premise of destroying the human capacity to live. Morality ends where a gun, or sword, begins.

It is your 'land developer' who will be inflicting the endless and horrible torture. THAT is his evil. Allah is an evil torturer.

Thank GOODNESS that allah does not exist.
your view would be correct if not for the fact that each person has the ability to choose their own final destination. Because it is through our own free will we each have the responsibility to seek what our choices are verify them and then choose freely and with knowledge.

Nobody is sent to Hell. they choose to do so of their own free will, knowing fully what the consequences of their choices will be. Every person in Hell was aware God(swt) exists, They knew fully they were doing an act that will condemn to Hell, they know they could just as easily chosen Heaven.

It is actually a bit of hard work to get to hell. the person needs to have reason to know God(swt) exists. They need to know what their choices for eternity are. They need to deliberately disobey God(swt) with knowledge of what the consequences are.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
your view would be correct if not for the fact that each person has the ability to choose their own final destination. Because it is through our own free will we each have the responsibility to seek what our choices are verify them and then choose freely and with knowledge.

Nobody is sent to Hell. they choose to do so of their own free will, knowing fully what the consequences of their choices will be. Every person in Hell was aware God(swt) exists, They knew fully they were doing an act that will condemn to Hell, they know they could just as easily chosen Heaven.

It is actually a bit of hard work to get to hell. the person needs to have reason to know God(swt) exists. They need to know what their choices for eternity are. They need to deliberately disobey God(swt) with knowledge of what the consequences are.
I said "Those that do not desire to make widgets are not forced to, they are free to turn down the job offer and are free to live in the "slum neighborhood, with all of it's hardships under threat of eternal torture when they retire. "

No one chooses to go to hell. They choose not to believe in an evil, supernatural being. The hell is the consequence Islam forces...except that thank GOODNESS there is no hell. The threat is empty.

You labor under a false assumption... that "They knew fully they were doing an act that will condemn to Hell, they know they could just as easily chosen Heaven."

In fact, most people have a very different view of heaven that they have chosen...one without that dreadful allah. Or others, like me, know that there is no hell. So you are very wrong. You try to force your belief on others once again.

The whole idea of all that hate and all those threats against unbelievers (specifically, unbelievers in your evil Allah) sickens me. It's hate and unending torture against people with a different religion or no religion...and that amounts to most of the people alive or dead. The vast majority of people who are or have existed. That is a LOT of hate.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

That is sickening and hateful.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,334,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I said "Those that do not desire to make widgets are not forced to, they are free to turn down the job offer and are free to live in the "slum neighborhood, with all of it's hardships under threat of eternal torture when they retire. "

No one chooses to go to hell. They choose not to believe in an evil, supernatural being. The hell is the consequence Islam forces...except that thank GOODNESS there is no hell. The threat is empty.

You labor under a false assumption... that "They knew fully they were doing an act that will condemn to Hell, they know they could just as easily chosen Heaven."

In fact, most people have a very different view of heaven that they have chosen...one without that dreadful allah. Or others, like me, know that there is no hell. So you are very wrong. You try to force your belief on others once again.

The whole idea of all that hate and all those threats against unbelievers (specifically, unbelievers in your evil Allah) sickens me. It's hate and unending torture against people with a different religion or no religion...and that amounts to most of the people alive or dead. The vast majority of people who are or have existed. That is a LOT of hate.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

That is sickening and hateful.
simply not believing in Allaah(swt) will not get a person into Hell. It has to be they have solid reasons to believe and their own ego will not let them believe there is something greater than them self.

No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe.

I suspect that an atheist who does not believe through no fault of their own has a better chance of getting to heaven than many theists, because they are not worshiping a false god.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:54 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
simply not believing in Allaah(swt) will not get a person into Hell. It has to be they have solid reasons to believe and their own ego will not let them believe there is something greater than them self.

No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe.

I suspect that an atheist who does not believe through no fault of their own has a better chance of getting to heaven than many theists, because they are not worshiping a false god.
The quran says (ad nauseum) unbelievers / disbelievers go to hell.

You say: "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Post evidence of that from the quran.
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Old 05-25-2016, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The quran says (ad nauseum) unbelievers / disbelievers go to hell.

You say: "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Post evidence of that from the quran.
The Qur'an is quite clear that no one will be punished, unless they have first been warned. Therefore those with no knowledge have not been warned and are not punished for not believing.


Surah 26:208-209

Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

Surah 35:36-37

But those who reject (God) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one! Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): "Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!" - "Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? and (moreover) the warner came to you. So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds): for the wrong-doers there is no helper."

Surah 39:71-72

The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive, there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!" (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!"

Surah 67:6-11

For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth, Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?" They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'God never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'" They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire!

No one will be punished unless they have been warned.
common sense dictates that there is no warning unless the person recognizes it as being such.


12. The true Muslim believes that God does not hold any person responsible until He has shown him the Right Way. This is why God has sent many messengers and revelations, and has made it clear that there would be no punishment before giving guidance and sounding the alarm. So, a person who has never come across any Divine revelations or messenger, or a person who is insane is not held responsible to God for failing to obey the Divine instructions. Such a person will be responsible only for not doing what his sound common sense tells him to do. But the person who knowingly and intentionally violates the Law of God or deviates from His Right Path will be punished for his wrong deeds (4:165; 5: 16 & 21; 17: 15).

This point is very important for every Muslim. There are many people in the world who have not heard of Islam and have no way of knowing about it. Such people may be honest and may become good Muslims, if they find their way to Islam. If they do not know and have no way of knowing, they will not be responsible for failing to be Muslims. Instead, the Muslim who can present Islam to such people will be the ones responsible for failing to invite them to Islam and show them what Islam is. This calls upon every Muslim throughout the globe not only to preach Islam in words but also -and more importantly-to live it in full (see, for example, the Qur’an, 3: 104;16:125).

The Fundamental Articles of Faith
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